Titles In The Arts

[MJS]

Pretty much every art out there has a formal way to address people. GrandMaster, Master, Professor, Senior Master, Sensei, and Sifu are just a few. Personally, I see nothing wrong with addressing someone like this, during a training session. Its always nice to show some respect to those that have been in the arts for a long period of time.

However, one thing that I've noticed lately, and something that concerns me, is when I see people use those titles as a means of expecting or demanding respect or when people think that just because they have those titles, that it should automatically be assumed that their skill level is above and beyond everyone else.

As I said in the beginning, I have no problem with someone using this title, but personally, what is going to impress me most, moreso than the title, but the skill that they have. Someone could have the title Supreme Ultra GrandMaster Soke, but if they don't understand the material, can't make it work, can't teach it, etc., then what good is the title? IMHO, the only purpose it would serve would be to pad someones ego.

I'm just curious as to what others think about the use of titles.

Mike

 

[matt.m]

I agree, you know we have a GM and a Master in my schools location. They are cool if you call them by those tiles. More importantly though, they don't expect you to. Students can call them Mr. "Smith" or Mr. "Jones". The 2nd and 3rd dans like sir or ma'am of course. However, when I was introduced to them they addressed themselves by first name. Part of it is approachability, the other part is humility.

I don't know, I know a couple of masters who have said "It is just a title, that's what they call me. If I am, then I don't know it yet." My dad told me that, and so have a few others, out of purely being humble.

In my mind that is the kind of instructor you should try and seek out. By this I mean the type of person that is more interested in teaching and your welfare as a student then they are a title.

 

[Matt]

Pretty much every art out there has a formal way to address people. GrandMaster, Master, Professor, Senior Master, Sensei, and Sifu are just a few. Personally, I see nothing wrong with addressing someone like this, during a training session. Its always nice to show some respect to those that have been in the arts for a long period of time.

However, one thing that I've noticed lately, and something that concerns me, is when I see people use those titles as a means of expecting or demanding respect or when people think that just because they have those titles, that it should automatically be assumed that their skill level is above and beyond everyone else.

As I said in the beginning, I have no problem with someone using this title, but personally, what is going to impress me most, moreso than the title, but the skill that they have. Someone could have the title Supreme Ultra GrandMaster Soke, but if they don't understand the material, can't make it work, can't teach it, etc., then what good is the title? IMHO, the only purpose it would serve would be to pad someones ego.

I'm just curious as to what others think about the use of titles.

Mike

I often have the lingering urge to found my own martial art, just so I can make the titles for the higher ranks. I would then assign the titles for my art as such:

5th dan = stinky weasel
7th dan = whiny little schoolgirl
10th dan / founder = worthless piece of crap.

That way I would know that folks really weren't in it for the 'ranking', and I feel it would cut down on excessive use of formal titles in general conversation, and self referential use of titles. I would certainly consider granting titles to paper chasers, for a fee of course.

Matt

 

[Drac]

I often have the lingering urge to found my own martial art, just so I can make the titles for the higher ranks. I would then assign the titles for my art as such:

5th dan = stinky weasel
7th dan = whiny little schoolgirl
10th dan / founder = worthless piece of crap.

That way I would know that folks really weren't in it for the 'ranking', and I feel it would cut down on excessive use of formal titles in general conversation, and self referential use of titles. I would certainly consider granting titles to paper chasers, for a fee of course.

Matt

Post your price list on e-Bay, you'll probably make a bundle..

 

[MJS]

I agree, you know we have a GM and a Master in my schools location. They are cool if you call them by those tiles. More importantly though, they don't expect you to. Students can call them Mr. "Smith" or Mr. "Jones". The 2nd and 3rd dans like sir or ma'am of course. However, when I was introduced to them they addressed themselves by first name. Part of it is approachability, the other part is humility.

I don't know, I know a couple of masters who have said "It is just a title, that's what they call me. If I am, then I don't know it yet." My dad told me that, and so have a few others, out of purely being humble.

In my mind that is the kind of instructor you should try and seek out. By this I mean the type of person that is more interested in teaching and your welfare as a student then they are a title.

You bring up a good point about being humble. I've known black belts that just wore a plain black belt, no stripes, nothing. These people were of course higher than 1st degree, but felt that it wasn't necessary to broadcast their rank. The way they taught, the way they executed their techniques and kata and their overall love for the arts and training spoke more words than any stripe ever could.

Mike

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

The way I teach is simple. I am Brian and you are your name here.
Let's train! I find that titles go with egos and the bigger the title generally the bigger the ego. This is not always the case but it certainly has been closer to the norm in my experience. Now I do not teach kid's (other than my own) so since I am teaching adults it makes sence for us to call each other by our names. When I am training my own children, I make them call me sir or instructor.

However, having said that I have been given titles and I find it a personal honor when someone has given me one. I think that anyone who has received a title should not be ashamed of it but very proud of it. Just do not flaunt it. The really great experts that I have met have never demanded that anyone call them anything other than their name. That has just been my experience.

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com

 

[MJS]

Post your price list on e-Bay, you'll probably make a bundle..

LOL, without a doubt!! How sad is that when you can go to ebay and find someone selling a high dan BB???? Gee, where did all the hard work go?

Mike

 

[Kreth]

The worst is the instructor that insists on being addressed as Sensei/Sir/etc outside the dojo. That's the height of arrogance, IMO.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

The worst is the instructor that insists on being addressed as Sensei/Sir/etc outside the dojo. That's the height of arrogance, IMO.

I would definatley agree on that.

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com

 

[MJS]

The way I teach is simple. I am Brian and you are your name here.

I have a few instructors like that. Plain and simple. We're all there to train, not compare who has more stripes or titles.

I think that anyone who has received a title should not be ashamed of it but very proud of it. Just do not flaunt it.

Exactly!! People tend to think that unless you're pushing rank and titles, then you're a nobody. "Let me see your rank. Let me see your title!" How about, "Wow! Look at the way Mr. (insert name) performs that technique! Look at the way he's able to teach a class and make everyone walk away having learned something!"

Personally, I like the 2nd one better.:ultracool

Mike

 

[Kreth]

I have a few instructors like that. Plain and simple. We're all there to train, not compare who has more stripes or titles.

Yeah, it's definitely possible to be on a first-name basis and have a respectful, yet relaxed training atmosphere.

 

[matt.m]

You know it is really neat dad and the GM and the Master I am training with all say the following "I am only good if my students are good." I used this philosophy myself when I was teaching a class to Jr. Marines. It didn't matter the class content, it only mattered if they could do or write what I taught them. I.E. If my squad didn't know how to do fire team formations then I didn't do my job as a Non Commissioned Officer.

 

[Swordlady]

The worst is the instructor that insists on being addressed as Sensei/Sir/etc outside the dojo. That's the height of arrogance, IMO.

I address my instructor as "Sensei" outside the dojo, even via email. But that is my choice. Call me old-fashioned, but I'm of the mindset that my sensei doesn't cease being my sensei, on or off the mat. Most of my sempai call him by his first name, even during training.

One of my friends (a martial arts instructor) does expect her students to call her "Sifu" at all times, even in casual settings. To her, it is a matter of respect. It may be also due to her Asian-American heritage. I wouldn't call her arrogant, since she is also very modest about her skill level and doesn't flaunt her rank.

 

[matt.m]

Yeah, you know I had a bbq this past Saturday. My GM came over. I call him sir all the time. It is respectful, plus he is older than my dad so why wouldn't I give him respect. GM or not.

 

[Kreth]

One of my friends (a martial arts instructor) does expect her students to call her "Sifu" at all times, even in casual settings. To her, it is a matter of respect. It may be also due to her Asian-American heritage. I wouldn't call her arrogant, since she is also very modest about her skill level and doesn't flaunt her rank.

In her case, it's a cultural difference, although IMO, expecting it from Western students (outside of the dojo anyway) is somewhat of an anachronism. To be honest, I was thinking more of the guys who have "Sensei John Doe" on their business cards, and style their dojo in a militaristic fashion ("Sir, yes, sir!"). I find that just silly...

 

[stickarts]

Hello all,Some great previous posts!One important note about titles:We do use titles in our school and part of it is certainly about helping to maintain proper respect but even moreso it is about maintaining proper relationships between everyone and maintaining organization!The title helps to describe what that persons role and responsibilities are in the school. For example, as Sensei, it is my job to train the instructor staff as well as the students, oversee our curriculum as well as all aspects of maintaining a positive, effective, and safe environment.The instructors are named Sifu and they are responsible for teaching the students and as instructors are expected to act in the best interest of the students.The students are there to learn! They are to be treated equally respectful as people but their main job is to learn and improve! Every student has a skill that I don't have or knows something that i don't know.Having owned and operated our school for 13 years, i cannot over emphasize the importance of maintaining a professional environment and keeping everyones relationships clear. When a student walks in the school, it should be very apparent what each persons role is and that it is professional.Outside of the school, some still call me Sensei and some don't and either way is ok by me. However in the school, to maintain a professional environment, we do use titles.As a student, i respect my teachers wishes and call him or her as they wish to be called. One expects to always be called Sensei and I adhere to that while others are fine on a first name basis. I am cool with both ways.Over the years i have seen cases of titles get misused or abused and i have also seen the opposite side of the coin where some have an axe to grind against those that receive recognition which often times is a result of jealousy when they have fallen short of their own hopes and dreams.Both of those cases are pitfalls and not constructive!The things I try and focus on are what i consider things of substance such as taking care of my family and friends, always learning and improving, and sharing martial arts with our community.In the end, who you are as a person and the lives you have touched is what will be remembered, not how many stripes or titles you bring to the grave!Thanks for the great posts and I am learning all of the time here!

 

[Drac]

The really great experts that I have met have never demanded that anyone call them anything other than their name. That has just been my experience

Same here..I met Bill "Superfoot" Wallace at a seminar..I addressed him as Grandmaster Wallace and asked if he would pose for a picture..He corrected me by saying "Please,call me Bill"..That speaks volumes on the kind of man he is..

 

[Kacey]

I agree with Stickarts - titles have a place in the dojang because, like military ranks, the help define roles and responsibilities. In addition, the use of formal address (and I call my students "sir" and "ma'am" no matter their age or rank - I don't just expect such terms to be used for me) helps set the training time apart from the rest of the day, which helps students to focus on what they are doing, and not the teacher who graded them poorly or the boss who blamed them for someone else's mistake. It also helps them to respect one another.

My instructor has told me I can call him by his first name outside the dojang - and I just can't do it. It feels wrong. Whether he is wearing his belt or not, he is still my sahbum, his knowledge and abilities remain the same, and I choose to show that respect in how I address him. Likewise, I have told my own students that they can call me by first name in non-TKD settings - and most of them won't (not can't), especially the more senior students. That's their choice, and I will not force them to do something they are not comfortable with, any more than my sahbum has tried to force me. It is a personal choice, and I will leave it up to each person.

I have only seen one instance in which it was a problem, and that involved a student who was, at the time 8 years old. He joined my class at the beginning of the summer, and had no problem with calling me ma'am (and, his mother told me, quite enjoyed being called sir) - the problem arose with his 3rd grade teacher. She was, his mother told me, a new teacher, about 24 years old, and when she asked him to do something, he said "Yes, ma'am" and went to do it - at which point she apparently went ballistic, and sent him to the principal for "having a smart mouth" - it seems she felt she was too young to be a "ma'am", and thought he was being rude (go figure; apparently, she wanted to be called "miss"). His punishment (several days of detention) was only revoked after, at his mother's request, I wrote the teacher a note describing the modes of address used in class. As a teacher myself, who has been called things much worse than "ma'am", I find it to be a sad commentary on society when a teacher feels that a polite response is negative. But that's the only time it's been a problem in 19 years as a student, and 15 as an assistant, then full instructor.

 

[Kreth]

My instructor has told me I can call him by his first name outside the dojang - and I just can't do it. It feels wrong. Whether he is wearing his belt or not, he is still my sahbum, his knowledge and abilities remain the same, and I choose to show that respect in how I address him. Likewise, I have told my own students that they can call me by first name in non-TKD settings - and most of them won't (not can't), especially the more senior students. That's their choice, and I will not force them to do something they are not comfortable with, any more than my sahbum has tried to force me. It is a personal choice, and I will leave it up to each person.

As you said yourself, it's your choice to address your instructor that way, which is a proper use of the term. My gripe was with the "You will call me Sensei" types, who obviously have no idea what the word means.

 

[Swordlady]

I have only seen one instance in which it was a problem, and that involved a student who was, at the time 8 years old. He joined my class at the beginning of the summer, and had no problem with calling me ma'am (and, his mother told me, quite enjoyed being called sir) - the problem arose with his 3rd grade teacher. She was, his mother told me, a new teacher, about 24 years old, and when she asked him to do something, he said "Yes, ma'am" and went to do it - at which point she apparently went ballistic, and sent him to the principal for "having a smart mouth" - it seems she felt she was too young to be a "ma'am", and thought he was being rude (go figure; apparently, she wanted to be called "miss"). His punishment (several days of detention) was only revoked after, at his mother's request, I wrote the teacher a note describing the modes of address used in class. As a teacher myself, who has been called things much worse than "ma'am", I find it to be a sad commentary on society when a teacher feels that a polite response is negative. But that's the only time it's been a problem in 19 years as a student, and 15 as an assistant, then full instructor.

I can't believe it. One of your students was punished at school for being polite - and received several days of detention on top of that? One of my clients recently called a teacher a "Stupid *****" - and was only given a one-day suspension. It really is a sad state of affairs when a child is punished harshly for the wrong things.

How did your student handle the unjust punishment?