Thoughts on belt testing fees

[skribs]

Oh lord give me strength, I am not a victim of anything, I am not playing the victim and I was pointing out something that is obvious to most people ie someone who owns a martial arts business has different priorities and concerns from someone who runs martial arts classes not for profit. The thread after all is about belt testing fees, a business is looking to make a profit in all the ways it can from taking very small children to selling equipment. Grading fees can be a big part of a businesses income.



You aren't being bullied, you are merely miffed because you want to be.

Now you're talking about it from a generalization instead of about me directly. After earlier when you said you were speaking directly about me. You keep changing your narrative.

 

[Tez3]

Now you're talking about it from a generalization instead of about me directly. After earlier when you said you were speaking directly about me. You keep changing your narrative.

Ok, I understand something about you now that I didn't before ( one of your posts) and it explains a lot so I'm going to regard this conversation with you as closed, I'm sorry you can't understand what I'm trying to explain to you, and you cannot follow when the subject expands and contracts as conversations do, they also wander as face to face conversations do in 'real life', I'm not changing my 'narrative' because I don't have one, posting on here is a conversation not an essay or thesis. You can disagree or agree with me, I honestly don't mind but really you need to stop thinking I'm insulting you and you need to stopactually aiming the little snipes at me because frankly I keep laughing and spilling my tea on my keyboard, it will only stand so much.

 

[skribs]

Ok, I understand something about you now that I didn't before ( one of your posts) and it explains a lot so I'm going to regard this conversation with you as closed, I'm sorry you can't understand what I'm trying to explain to you, and you cannot follow when the subject expands and contracts as conversations do, they also wander as face to face conversations do in 'real life', I'm not changing my 'narrative' because I don't have one, posting on here is a conversation not an essay or thesis. You can disagree or agree with me, I honestly don't mind but really you need to stop thinking I'm insulting you and you need to stopactually aiming the little snipes at me because frankly I keep laughing and spilling my tea on my keyboard, it will only stand so much.

I don't aim little snipes at you. You bully people and the cry foul when they call you on it. I'm just calling you on it.

 

[isshinryuronin]

I have earlier written (in this, or some other thread - it's hard to keep track of the subject, lately) that, in the early 70's, there was likely a plan by TKD (very organized/centralized in S. Korea) to capture market share in the U.S. karate school boom. They were ahead of the curve in marketing strategy and business planning. Their schools grew like bamboo. Part of this plan including testing fees.

At that time, very few Okinawan/Japanese dojos, even Kenpo schools, charged them. Over the years, though, the practice grew beyond just charging for the new colored belt. This may have coincided with the slowing down of the MA industry boom, requiring new revenue sources, following the lead of the Koreans.

Strangely, as test fees grew, so did the number of belts (and tests.) Between white and black, there used to be 4-6 belts. Now, double that number is not uncommon, especially in TKD. True, many dojangs (at least in my experience) base their business model on kids, and kids need more motivational inducement via numerous promotions than adults. But the connection between testing fees and the number of tests exists.

Now, I am NOT criticizing TKD or the concepts of test fees, merely providing some historical context to the subject. It is a tough business nowadays and teaching for many is not just a way of giving back to the art, but their bread and butter. I understand.

While I do not care for the concept of high test fees with a never-ending string of colored, striped & polka-dotted belts (OK, I've yet to see one with polka dots), I accept that it may be, what I consider, a necessary evil. I just hope that it is not overdone to squeeze the little ones' families to an extreme. And, while collecting this "extra" revenue, I hope the owners reciprocate with giving "extra" care and responsibility in teaching.

 

[dvcochran]

I don't aim little snipes at you. You bully people and the cry foul when they call you on it. I'm just calling you on it.

Dude, that is almost everyone on here.
No one is bullying. Just voicing their opinion. I really have zero idea how someone could bully you from thousands of miles away.

 

[JR 137]

and that is exactly my point, taking children as young as 3 and 4 is for business reasons because that's where the money is considered to be.



again my point is exactly that you are a business and not necessarily taking young children in for their good rather the good of the business.

From what I’ve seen, the 3-4 year olds aren’t really where the money is. Of course they bring in additional revenue, but they’re definitely not the money group. Everywhere I’ve seen charges significantly less (at least half price), the classes are shorter and less often. I’ve seen less kids that age in dojos that have them than adults in the same dojo.

The “big money” group is elementary school aged children. Far more of them than adults and the youngest ones combined. While they typically pay less than adults, there’s far more than enough of them to still financially outperform the littlest ones and adults combined.

My dojo starts at 6 years old. We’ve had inquiries about younger kids, but we don’t take them. My CI has accepted a few 5 year olds, but they were either siblings or children of current students. And they were on a trial basis, meaning my CI said they can try a class or two and if they can do as well as the other kids in class, they can stay. Most were fine, some weren’t ready.

And even if someone is teaching very young ones just for the money, that I’m and of itself doesn’t diminish what the kids are learning. So long as they’re being taught adequately/correctly/whatever you may call it.

Truth is many MA teachers don’t like teaching kids under, say, 16 or so. They do it to pay the bills and keep the dojo running. Some people really enjoy it, and some people truly enjoy teaching the very little ones. When I was teaching physical education, I really didn’t want to teach the Pre-K 3 and pre-k 4 year old classes. At 2 different schools, I taught 3 year olds all the way through high school seniors. After a few months, I really started to enjoy teaching the youngest ones. I genuinely had no preference beyond some groups were more fun than others, regardless of age. I had some great groups and some groups I I counted down the 40 minutes every time in every grade level. My point is sometimes people get “stuck” having to accept a group, then turn around and really enjoy it. And if you really like teaching, the ones you don’t want to do end up growing on you.

The group that easily gave me the most anxiety before I started was adapted physical education (special needs). Honestly, my favorite group I ever had was my adapted elementary group while I was student teaching. Several had autism, several were cognitively delayed, and a few had severe physical disabilities. I had so much fun teaching and playing with them. Their smiles and laughter lit up the room like no other group I’ve been around. Sometimes, the group you fear turns out to be a real highlight of your day.

 

[Tez3]

I don't aim little snipes at you. You bully people and the cry foul when they call you on it. I'm just calling you on it.

Ok, I'll play, how exactly do I 'bully' people? especially you. Do explain.
I am not calling foul, complaining or reporting to the mods you called me a bully. In fact I am sat waiting all agog to see what you will come up with next...okay I'm fibbing, I don't actually care. I like, many on here have opinions and views on things, just because you don't agree doesn't mean you are being bullied. so you may care to withdraw your accusations and little snipes, you have a choice, you can put me on ignore, you can post a robust reply but whatever, do stop kvetching.

I get you don't like my opinion, I don't like toddlers being taught martial arts, to my mind it's something that much older children should do, not babies who cannot understand the concepts nor keep still long enough to actually teach techniques to. I understand that teaching children is something martial arts businesses do to make their money, doesn't mean I have to approve of it, doesn't mean anything actually other than my opinion. You can agree or disagree.

Businesses have different driving forces than non businesses, that surely you should agree with but I doubt you will. If you are relying on martial arts for your living then you run your organisation differently than if you are running it just to cover the basic utilities etc ( that's a generic your btw)

 

[dvcochran]

I have earlier written (in this, or some other thread - it's hard to keep track of the subject, lately) that, in the early 70's, there was likely a plan by TKD (very organized/centralized in S. Korea) to capture market share in the U.S. karate school boom. They were ahead of the curve in marketing strategy and business planning. Their schools grew like bamboo. Part of this plan including testing fees.

At that time, very few Okinawan/Japanese dojos, even Kenpo schools, charged them. Over the years, though, the practice grew beyond just charging for the new colored belt. This may have coincided with the slowing down of the MA industry boom, requiring new revenue sources, following the lead of the Koreans.

Strangely, as test fees grew, so did the number of belts (and tests.) Between white and black, there used to be 4-6 belts. Now, double that number is not uncommon, especially in TKD. True, many dojangs (at least in my experience) base their business model on kids, and kids need more motivational inducement via numerous promotions than adults. But the connection between testing fees and the number of tests exists.

Now, I am NOT criticizing TKD or the concepts of test fees, merely providing some historical context to the subject. It is a tough business nowadays and teaching for many is not just a way of giving back to the art, but their bread and butter. I understand.

While I do not care for the concept of high test fees with a never-ending string of colored, striped & polka-dotted belts (OK, I've yet to see one with polka dots), I accept that it may be, what I consider, a necessary evil. I just hope that it is not overdone to squeeze the little ones' families to an extreme. And, while collecting this "extra" revenue, I hope the owners reciprocate with giving "extra" care and responsibility in teaching.

Very well said.
One often over-looked caveat is the economy. There is more disposable income (in the U.S.)than there has ever been in history. It has an effect of 'Jumbo sizing' everything. Some people/schools take advantage of the such highs in the economy and 'get theirs' while they can. While not always easy, It is a measurable phenomenon and something a dollar minded person/parent would be wise to research before signing up for anything.

 

[Tez3]

And even if someone is teaching very young ones just for the money, that I’m and of itself doesn’t diminish what the kids are learning.

I did put that proviso into the post, my point was that those that teach for a living approach running an organisation/club/classes differently from those running them as a non profit, which is a simple truth. Which you do is up to you.

 

[dvcochran]

I did put that proviso into the post, my point was that those that teach for a living approach running an organisation/club/classes differently from those running them as a non profit, which is a simple truth. Which you do is up to you.

To be fair, I think that does not shine the correct light on what JR's post said. What I heard loudest in JR's post was the unexpected enjoyment found in teaching groups of various ages. And that 'age' does not specifically mean 'difficult'.

There is no denying that the two models (profit/nonprofit) are going to be different. That doesn't mean their can't be fun in the necessary things that keep many businesses afloat.
Just curious; would you agree or disagree that there is more free enterprise in the U.S.?

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Can we please try to keep this thread on topic, and focus on the subject rather than each other?

 

[skribs]

Dude, that is almost everyone on here.
No one is bullying. Just voicing their opinion. I really have zero idea how someone could bully you from thousands of miles away.

So you've never heard of cyber-bullying? Cyber-bullying makes young people more than twice as likely to commit self-harm than if they hadn't been bullied. There are many forms of abuse other than physical abuse. Verbal abuse and emotional abuse are all just as bad. They can cause stress, anxiety, and cause problems for people's mental health. Less relevant to this discussion, but neglect and isolation are also forms of abuse. Bullies don't just come in the variety that beat people up. Bullying can be a wide range of things.

I also only call someone a bully when I repeatedly see the same behavior pattern. In this case, I see a clear behavior pattern that I'll describe more below, in direct answer to her question. I've had several people tell me in PMs or in other ways that they have her on ignore because of this type of thing, so I know it's not just me. It's just that I choose to call her out instead of relying on the ignore button.

Ok, I'll play, how exactly do I 'bully' people? especially you. Do explain.
I am not calling foul, complaining or reporting to the mods you called me a bully. In fact I am sat waiting all agog to see what you will come up with next...okay I'm fibbing, I don't actually care. I like, many on here have opinions and views on things, just because you don't agree doesn't mean you are being bullied. so you may care to withdraw your accusations and little snipes, you have a choice, you can put me on ignore, you can post a robust reply but whatever, do stop kvetching.

I get you don't like my opinion, I don't like toddlers being taught martial arts, to my mind it's something that much older children should do, not babies who cannot understand the concepts nor keep still long enough to actually teach techniques to. I understand that teaching children is something martial arts businesses do to make their money, doesn't mean I have to approve of it, doesn't mean anything actually other than my opinion. You can agree or disagree.

Businesses have different driving forces than non businesses, that surely you should agree with but I doubt you will. If you are relying on martial arts for your living then you run your organisation differently than if you are running it just to cover the basic utilities etc ( that's a generic your btw)

I have explained it. Several times. You instigate an argument, and when the person calls you on it, you act like you're this perfect little angel, and start to question their emotional stability or intelligence. Often both. You then try to look like you're taking the high road. You get people flustered or frustrated, and then you mock them for it.

My calling you out has nothing to do with disagreements. I disagree with a lot of things I see on this site, and still have amicable discussions with those folks. For example, even with you, I didn't take offense when you said that 4 is too young for formal education. I disagreed with it, and I stated my experience to the contrary. That line of conversation continued. You started to get a little bit accusatory with these statements:

"Basically you take 'elite' children, those with parents who are willing to pay for schooling and martial arts etc."

This is an accusation that I am gatekeeping the martial arts, and only keeping it to those I deem "worthy" by their social status. A fact which simply isn't true. However, you're clearly starting to poke and prod when you say this. That the only way I can have young kids is if we endorse their privilege. You also ignored what I said about kids being home-schooled before going to elementary school (or whatever the UK equivalent is), because that didn't fit your narrative of me focusing only on the privileged.

So I called you out on that and explained basic economics, that you pay money to a business in order to receive a service from that business.

That's when you came up with this: "again my point is exactly that you are a business and not necessarily taking young children in for their good rather the good of the business."

This is a statement that you say was directed at me, but also that I shouldn't take personally. And in the context of everything else you've said, is clearly directed at me and my school. We only take in elite children who can pay, because it's for the good of the business and not because it's for their own good. You have insulted my integrity, and you have insulted the hard work I put in towards teaching those kids martial arts. So I corrected you on that assumption.

Then all you do is tell me (and I'm summarizing here) that I don't know how to read, that you never said that directed at me, and then a whole lot of passive-aggressiveness towards me. You belittle me and tell me that I don't matter at all, that this is all just amusing to you.

All of these are classic behaviors of a bully. Or at the very least an internet troll. Summarizing again:

• You make accusations against someone's character, and then tell them you weren't actually talking about them
• You tell people they don't matter
• You insult people's intelligence
• You insult people's integrity, and when they try and refute your accusation you tell them not to take it personal

I've been a victim of bullying. I've taken classes on psychological effects of domestic violence and bullying, as part of my degree in psychology. The way you talk to people is clearly abusive behavior.

From what I’ve seen, the 3-4 year olds aren’t really where the money is. Of course they bring in additional revenue, but they’re definitely not the money group. Everywhere I’ve seen charges significantly less (at least half price), the classes are shorter and less often. I’ve seen less kids that age in dojos that have them than adults in the same dojo.

The “big money” group is elementary school aged children. Far more of them than adults and the youngest ones combined. While they typically pay less than adults, there’s far more than enough of them to still financially outperform the littlest ones and adults combined.

My dojo starts at 6 years old. We’ve had inquiries about younger kids, but we don’t take them. My CI has accepted a few 5 year olds, but they were either siblings or children of current students. And they were on a trial basis, meaning my CI said they can try a class or two and if they can do as well as the other kids in class, they can stay. Most were fine, some weren’t ready.

And even if someone is teaching very young ones just for the money, that I’m and of itself doesn’t diminish what the kids are learning. So long as they’re being taught adequately/correctly/whatever you may call it.

Truth is many MA teachers don’t like teaching kids under, say, 16 or so. They do it to pay the bills and keep the dojo running. Some people really enjoy it, and some people truly enjoy teaching the very little ones. When I was teaching physical education, I really didn’t want to teach the Pre-K 3 and pre-k 4 year old classes. At 2 different schools, I taught 3 year olds all the way through high school seniors. After a few months, I really started to enjoy teaching the youngest ones. I genuinely had no preference beyond some groups were more fun than others, regardless of age. I had some great groups and some groups I I counted down the 40 minutes every time in every grade level. My point is sometimes people get “stuck” having to accept a group, then turn around and really enjoy it. And if you really like teaching, the ones you don’t want to do end up growing on you.

The group that easily gave me the most anxiety before I started was adapted physical education (special needs). Honestly, my favorite group I ever had was my adapted elementary group while I was student teaching. Several had autism, several were cognitively delayed, and a few had severe physical disabilities. I had so much fun teaching and playing with them. Their smiles and laughter lit up the room like no other group I’ve been around. Sometimes, the group you fear turns out to be a real highlight of your day.

That is true, a lot of schools do have a "little tigers" class (or similar). In our school, we do have separate classes for 4-7 and 8-12 (for the white & yellow belts, anyway), but the classes are the same length and the same price. And in my experience, this is where a significant portion of our students come from. However, my Master clearly has a passion for working with kids this age.

Personally, I find it to be a difficult class, and the only one that feels like "work". I don't teach that class for the money, I teach it because my Master needs the most help in that class. And there are a lot of students there that I eventually connect with. But man, there are some students that make it a lot of work.

 

[JR 137]

I did put that proviso into the post, my point was that those that teach for a living approach running an organisation/club/classes differently from those running them as a non profit, which is a simple truth. Which you do is up to you.

I don’t disagree with that. I was going to quote another post by you, but I’ll just comment here...

There are lots of great reasons to teach 3 and 4 year olds MA. And none of them really have to do with fighting/SD/whatever. It’s all about physical education. Get the kids have fun in a structured and physical way. The aim of teaching them shouldn’t be to get them to become MA phenoms any more than signing the same age kids up for things like soccer, gymnastics, dance, et al should be about the kids excelling in those things.

Kids training in MA should be about getting them to have fun, get exercise, give them a structured routine, learn the “hidden curriculum” like waiting their turn, lining up, etc; and learning the very basics. Sure, some parents are delusional about what they expect out of MA lessons; no different than their delusions about any other physical activity or stuff like piano, art, etc.

I’ve seen a ton of little kids’ activities. MA is a great one as are many others. I honestly think the best thing for them is gymnastics. Watching my daughters and siblings’ kids at gymnastics at a really young age, I was completely dumbfounded by how great it was for them. How they kept 3 year olds’ attention and physical activity on track for an hour straight was nothing short of a miracle. And they learn so much body control and awareness.

Also, to you and @dvcochran - there is obviously a demand for MA lessons for 3 and 4 year olds. Why not give the parents what they’re willing to pay for and give the kids what they want? If you do it right, everyone benefits (in a good way). My CI regularly gets calls inquiring about lessons for 3-5 year olds. He doesn’t do it, but I don’t think there’d be anything wrong if he did. He doesn’t do it simply because he doesn’t think he’d be an effective teacher for that group. He’s contemplated asking if anyone would like to teach that age and basically own that age group, but no one’s been interested and/or willing to make the commitment. That group takes a very special type of personality to run it.

 

[dvcochran]

So you've never heard of cyber-bullying?

Sure I have heard of it. It is really one of those head scratchers for me. My previous statements still stands.

 

[skribs]

Sure I have heard of it. It is really one of those head scratchers for me. My previous statements still stands.

Maybe because you didn't grow up in the digital age. Same can be said for @Tez3 , if I remember correct what she's said about her age in the past. I grew up with the internet, grew up seeing the effects people can have on each other through it.

 

[Tez3]

All of these are classic behaviors of a bully. Or at the very least an internet troll. Summarizing again:

• You make accusations against someone's character, and then tell them you weren't actually talking about them
• You tell people they don't matter
• You insult people's intelligence
• You insult people's integrity, and when they try and refute your accusation you tell them not to take it personal

You are making assumptions based on what you think I'm saying. For example I didn't say you couldn't read, I said you didn't understand what I was saying, I even said I was sorry for that.

That's when you came up with this: "again my point is exactly that you are a business and not necessarily taking young children in for their good rather the good of the business."

That's not bullying it's an opinion, 'not necessarily' means exactly what it says, the owner of the business won't turn down customers will he? Can he afford to turn down paying students? Can he pick and chose those he trains?
Are you sure all the children benefit, well no, because you made a post about a child who would only play games not train. You've also posted before about the problems teaching this children leaving genuine doubt as whether you think actually think it's 'all good'. You however turned it into something aimed at you.

I don't 'instigate' arguments, as I said I have opinions, people can agree or disagree, you don't like being disagreed with.
disagreement is good, it makes people think about what their views are, if they defend their opinions they have to form up the reasons for that opinion. I am open to changing my mind, as all people should be. Rather than put your side of the business side of your martial arts you complain of being bullied, you could have explained how you choose your child students, how you teach them etc, I may not be convinced but that's not your problem is it?

• You insult people's intelligence

• You insult people's integrity, and when they try and refute your accusation you tell them not to take it personal

What you mean is you feel insulted by just about any post I make, you've jumped on me before, unwanted by the other person you assumed needed 'defending', I might also add who told you he and I were messing around but you went off a right rant similar to this one. You were absolutely insulting and quite nasty.

The way you keep on at me with your accusations one might even think you were the one bullying here..........

I attempted to get back on to the OP subject but again you took that as being a personal attack, there is nothing I can write or say that will satisfy you so I'm not going to try anymore.


I don't tell people they don't matter, I tell some they don't matter to me and why should they? I'm equally positive I don't matter to them.

In deference to a post you made about yourself I'm not answering you as robustly as I could because I think you have made my posts into a fixation now and this needs to end now. For my part I am putting you on ignore, something I do reluctantly but I feel it's one solution.

 

[dvcochran]

Maybe because you didn't grow up in the digital age. Same can be said for @Tez3 , if I remember correct what she's said about her age in the past. I grew up with the internet, grew up seeing the effects people can have on each other through it.

Really? Are you bullying me?
Yes, we are both older than you, and it is really showing in your post.
See, you Think you are being bullied when you are not because apparently you have no clue how to handle even modest adversity.

 

[skribs]

Really? Are you bullying me?
Yes, we are both older than you, and it is really showing in your post.
See, you Think you are being bullied when you are not because apparently you have no clue how to handle even modest adversity.

No, I am pointing out that because you didn't grow up with the internet, you might not have seen the effects it has on people. There weren't kids your age killing themselves because of things that were said to them in chat rooms when you were in high school.

 

[WaterGal]

"Why doesn't she have to wear hers?"

Same question.

Oh, I misread your previous comment. I thought you said the parents were asking why the girls didn't get a cup with their set. I see now that you said the kids asked, and you respond with "ask your parents". Yeah, that's basically what we do too lol.

 

[skribs]

Oh, I misread your previous comment. I thought you said the parents were asking why the girls didn't get a cup with their set. I see now that you said the kids asked, and you respond with "ask your parents". Yeah, that's basically what we do too lol.

Yeah, there are some times I don't quite know what to say.

For example, one of the pieces of etiquette at our dojang is that you don't fix your uniform in the middle of anything. If you're doing a form, going through your punches or kicks, etc., and your belt comes undone you leave it on the ground, or if your shirt comes untucked you leave it untucked. After we finish going through our kicks, or after the form is over, you get the chance to fix your uniform. I even had one test where I got a drop of sweat in my eye, and I didn't clear it out until after the form was done.

Normally I don't mind little nervous ticks, but some kids will fix their uniform after every punch or kick. So one time I tell a student to keep his hands tight in the right position, and fix his uniform after the form is over (with everyone else). So it kind of turned into a little quiz:
Me: What do you do if your shirt comes untucked?
Him: Fix it after the form.
Me: What do you do if your belt falls off?
Him: Leave it on the ground, and put it back on after the form.
Me: Good job!
Him: What if all of your clothes fall off?
Me: Uh....then you have bigger problems.

For reference, this kid was 5 or 6 at the time.