Thoughts on belt testing fees

[WaterGal]

Four year olds are toddlers really, much too young for formal classes in anything.

I think it depends on how, well, formal the class is. Our Little Dragons class is 4-6s, and we've found over time that taking more a of a structured play approach and teaching them basic skills as games, obstacle courses and so forth works better for that age than a more traditional martial arts class. Half of what they're learning at that age is just, like, how to take turns and listen to directions and have confidence and develop their basic motor skills. The martial arts stuff is mostly just a way to learn that.

 

[JR 137]

Half of what they're learning at that age is just, like, how to take turns and listen to directions and have confidence and develop their basic motor skills.

This was what we were told was the "hidden curriculum" in my grad PE classes.

 

[dvcochran]

No, I am pointing out that because you didn't grow up with the internet, you might not have seen the effects it has on people. There weren't kids your age killing themselves because of things that were said to them in chat rooms when you were in high school.

People killing themselves over what someone else said was going on long before the 'internet' was around.
NikolaTesla predicted worldwide networks. ARPANET was created in the 60's. Kahn and Cerf developed TCP/IP in the 70's. So yea, I grew up with the internet. Don't make it out to be an incredibly new thing.
You are apparently way too young to understand it beyond social media. There is WAY more to the internet.

 

[skribs]

People killing themselves over what someone else said was going on long before the 'internet' was around.
NikolaTesla predicted worldwide networks. ARPANET was created in the 60's. Kahn and Cerf developed TCP/IP in the 70's. So yea, I grew up with the internet. Don't make it out to be an incredibly new thing.
You are apparently way too young to understand it beyond social media. There is WAY more to the internet.

You're deflecting.

 

[skribs]

People killing themselves over what someone else said was going on long before the 'internet' was around.
NikolaTesla predicted worldwide networks. ARPANET was created in the 60's. Kahn and Cerf developed TCP/IP in the 70's. So yea, I grew up with the internet. Don't make it out to be an incredibly new thing.
You are apparently way too young to understand it beyond social media. There is WAY more to the internet.

The fact that suicide and the internet both existed before social media doesn't make cyber-bullying any less real. The fact that bad things have happened in the past doesn't excuse poor behavior today. You say you don't understand it, but that doesn't matter. Because when you say or do something to someone, you don't get to dictate how they react or how they take it. And you can't take it back.

You can hide behind these excuses if you want. But cyber-bullying is a real thing. And if you don't take responsibility for the things you say about a person - in person or online - then you're part of the problem.

 

[Tez3]

And none of them really have to do with fighting/SD/whatever. It’s all about physical education. Get the kids have fun in a structured and physical way

I do think though that if you are training martial arts it should be about fighting/self defence etc.

There's plenty of other activities that children can do that will give them a physical education, here we have clubs for most sports as ell as a number of youth organisations. Local authority run sports and leisure centres here that have activities for children, there's sports at and after school as well. I do think of martial arts as an adult and young adult activity more than one for toddlers. I do agree about gymnastics and would add Cheer as well.

I think it depends on how, well, formal the class is. Our Little Dragons class is 4-6s, and we've found over time that taking more a of a structured play approach and teaching them basic skills as games, obstacle courses and so forth works better for that age than a more traditional martial arts class. Half of what they're learning at that age is just, like, how to take turns and listen to directions and have confidence and develop their basic motor skills. The martial arts stuff is mostly just a way to learn that.

Personally I'm not sure a martial arts class is the place for children to learn to listen, as well as learn social skills. Most of us are martial arts instructors not trained primary school teachers, it's beyond what we should be teaching. Martial arts classes should be martial arts not primary schools, I do understand that children in the US start school at a later age than they do elsewhere but surely it can't be down to martial arts instructors to teach what schools and parents should be?

 

[Tez3]

I will add too, how many times have we seen, over the years, people posting up on here complaining about the 'childcare' martial arts classes? The ones that pick children up from school, they do their homework and some martial arts games, they 'sell' martial arts birthday parties, have special clubs for leadership, black belts, teams etc etc. The ones where martial arts is just the banner for out of school childcare, some people have said on here that it's fairly widespread, it's certainly an impression that you get from reading these posts anyway.

 

[dvcochran]

The fact that suicide and the internet both existed before social media doesn't make cyber-bullying any less real. The fact that bad things have happened in the past doesn't excuse poor behavior today. You say you don't understand it, but that doesn't matter. Because when you say or do something to someone, you don't get to dictate how they react or how they take it. And you can't take it back.

You can hide behind these excuses if you want. But cyber-bullying is a real thing. And if you don't take responsibility for the things you say about a person - in person or online - then you're part of the problem.

People are going to hear 'bad', annoying things online and in person all their life. It is imperative that, as a responsible person, you mature and learn to let certain things said to you just pass by. Accepting the fact that the narrative cannot always be manipulated so that you are right is a very good thing. You try to do this frequently. Much more can be learned by keeping our trap shut sometimes.
And remember, this is a worldwide forum (which I think is pretty cool). People from other cultures simply have different ways of communicating. This can easily add to a post reading very different from what it really says.
In other words, you would greatly benefit from broadening your perspective.

Quite often you bring up cyber-bullying like it is something you can hide behind. That is a very unhealthy way to look at it.

 

[dvcochran]

I will add too, how many times have we seen, over the years, people posting up on here complaining about the 'childcare' martial arts classes? The ones that pick children up from school, they do their homework and some martial arts games, they 'sell' martial arts birthday parties, have special clubs for leadership, black belts, teams etc etc. The ones where martial arts is just the banner for out of school childcare, some people have said on here that it's fairly widespread, it's certainly an impression that you get from reading these posts anyway.

I think that just like there are many different styles/systems in MA, the are also different approaches and/or veins to the training method. Creating a 'habit' that a person needs to exercise as they learn is a very, very good thing.
As martial arts have become more and more integrated into western culture, it has absorbed some western mentality and approach to training/teaching. A point can be made here that training and teaching are two different things.

We do not offer the after school programs you mention. Another school in our town does and it is by far the bulk of their business. I have never audited a class but have mostly heard good things about the program. It is very hard for me to find a downside to this approach. Kids that need afterschool care because their parents are working or such are going to have to go somewhere. Going to a program that includes formal exercise can only be a plus.

I guess a person has to think about the beginning of the journey. For some kids it will be the afterschool program. All the kids get a MA exposure so possibly it will be something that sparks their interest later in life. Not a bad thing. IMHO

From a business perspective, the other school has had to add considerable overhead to make it work. I think they are up to three vans. This of course means more warm bodies (wages), more insurance cost as well as the added liability coverage I am sure they had to add. At least one person there has to have a teaching certificate. There are other internal/external programs the everyone in a leadership role have to take. Everything a 'regular' daycare is required to do plus some. I am certain this program is the what keeps the other school solvent.
This is not a business model I have ever had an interest in pursuing. But I do see a Lot of good in it.

 

[dvcochran]

You're deflecting.

Haha. If I am deflecting, you are redirecting.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

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@gpseymour

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I do think though that if you are training martial arts it should be about fighting/self defence etc.

I don't think that's necessary. Martial arts can be used for a lot of purposes, and there are some groups that train with a fairly specifically non-combat focus (Koichi Tohei's entire organization comes to mind).

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Personally I'm not sure a martial arts class is the place for children to learn to listen, as well as learn social skills. Most of us are martial arts instructors not trained primary school teachers, it's beyond what we should be teaching. Martial arts classes should be martial arts not primary schools, I do understand that children in the US start school at a later age than they do elsewhere but surely it can't be down to martial arts instructors to teach what schools and parents should be?

Parents aren't trained in it, either. And many of them could use some help. Lots of places teach kids skills beyond what's being offered in the name of the institution, and often simply through the experience and internal training (as opposed to formal schooling) received by the staff. Why single martial arts out as something so different from gymnastics or other sports?

 

[JR 137]

Parents aren't trained in it, either. And many of them could use some help. Lots of places teach kids skills beyond what's being offered in the name of the institution, and often simply through the experience and internal training (as opposed to formal schooling) received by the staff. Why single martial arts out as something so different from gymnastics or other sports?

Yup. As to the last sentence, MA isn’t something sacred. We tend to put it on a pedestal a bit due to our passion for it, but it isn’t something esoteric that should only be reserved for very specific purposes.

 

[JR 137]

I do think though that if you are training martial arts it should be about fighting/self defence etc.

There's plenty of other activities that children can do that will give them a physical education, here we have clubs for most sports as ell as a number of youth organisations. Local authority run sports and leisure centres here that have activities for children, there's sports at and after school as well. I do think of martial arts as an adult and young adult activity more than one for toddlers. I do agree about gymnastics and would add Cheer as well.



Personally I'm not sure a martial arts class is the place for children to learn to listen, as well as learn social skills. Most of us are martial arts instructors not trained primary school teachers, it's beyond what we should be teaching. Martial arts classes should be martial arts not primary schools, I do understand that children in the US start school at a later age than they do elsewhere but surely it can't be down to martial arts instructors to teach what schools and parents should be?

It shouldn’t be the primary place kids learn these skills; it should supplement/reinforce what’s being taught at home in these areas.

Furthermore there’s different dynamics at play in a large group setting simply that can’t be replicated at home. Most kids don’t have a dozen or so siblings the same age where they have to act specific ways in order to coexist with the group.

MA has a lot more to teach than simply SD skills. There’s nothing wrong with young ones learning these things. They can absolutely learn these things from different activities/sports, and there are some that may be better at it, but that doesn’t mean they shouldn’t serve any purpose for young kids.

I’m 99% sure you know this, but maybe you’re not on the same page here - kids this age are non-contact/non-sparring. It’s all basics. They may hit a soft target here and there, but they’re certainly not putting their “skills to use” against each other. If they were, you wouldn’t get any objections from any sane person.

 

[Tez3]

Kids that need afterschool care because their parents are working or such are going to have to go somewhere.

I think this is where the culture differences come into play because a martial arts school would simply not be allowed here to run as after school care. All afterschool clubs and childcare are regulated here by OFSTED and have to abide by standards laid down by the Dept of Education as well as be inspected yearly.

Martial arts to us here is mostly a sport alongside football, athletics etc or even a hobby, having it as childcare is something we wouldn't really consider, most classes here are for an hour a week, perhaps an hour and a half, where martial arts techniques are taught.

I’m 99% sure you know this, but maybe you’re not on the same page here - kids this age are non-contact/non-sparring. It’s all basics. They may hit a soft target here and there, but they’re certainly not putting their “skills to use” against each other. If they were, you wouldn’t get any objections from any sane person.

Well most children's classes are like that but there are posters who have said it's mostly games etc rather than actual martial arts taught at 3/4. My opinion has nothing to do with whether they put their skills to use or not, especially as they don't seem to learn any martial arts techniques, my objection is having classes of children as young as three. If it's for physical exercise etc then that's what it should be presented as, perhaps a 'toddlers gym/ready for martial arts' class or suchlike rather than a martial arts class if they aren't actually doing martial arts.

This is representative of the UK on the whole, the Budokwai is a very old club, they have a class for 3 year olds but it is not a Judo class, it's called 'Pre Judo class' they don't teach martial arts. They have a 'Judo Gym' class from 6 months+ but for parents/carers and their babies again not martial arts. this is the type of class that is useful and suitable for toddlers, along with their parents/carers rather than unaccompanied in a martial arts class.http://budokwai.co.uk/judogym
but I'm thinking as has been said this is a cultural difference as much as anything.

 

[Tez3]

I don't think that's necessary. Martial arts can be used for a lot of purposes, and there are some groups that train with a fairly specifically non-combat focus (Koichi Tohei's entire organization comes to mind).

That's going to be another discussion lol 'what is martial arts' and probably not appreciated on this thread. Interesting though, what constitutes a martial art when (if) martial means warlike etc. I don't have time to start another thread though, and I daresay there's one already.

 

[skribs]

People are going to hear 'bad', annoying things online and in person all their life. It is imperative that, as a responsible person, you mature and learn to let certain things said to you just pass by. Accepting the fact that the narrative cannot always be manipulated so that you are right is a very good thing. You try to do this frequently. Much more can be learned by keeping our trap shut sometimes.
And remember, this is a worldwide forum (which I think is pretty cool). People from other cultures simply have different ways of communicating. This can easily add to a post reading very different from what it really says.
In other words, you would greatly benefit from broadening your perspective.

Quite often you bring up cyber-bullying like it is something you can hide behind. That is a very unhealthy way to look at it.

You think that bullying is okay, because other people just have to learn to take it? That's it. I have lost all respect for you. I will be putting you on ignore, because I don't want to be influenced by anything you have to say.

I won't respond to this line of the conversation anymore, which is probably what the mods want anyway.

 

[Tez3]

Hopefully this will bring this subject to an end. None of the following has happened on here,
Bullying and cyberbullying

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I think this is where the culture differences come into play because a martial arts school would simply not be allowed here to run as after school care. All afterschool clubs and childcare are regulated here by OFSTED and have to abide by standards laid down by the Dept of Education as well as be inspected yearly.

Martial arts to us here is mostly a sport alongside football, athletics etc or even a hobby, having it as childcare is something we wouldn't really consider, most classes here are for an hour a week, perhaps an hour and a half, where martial arts techniques are taught.

In the US, many activities have a bit of this after-school care thing going on. It exists in gymnastics and such, too. Though I will say the most obvious ones I've seen have been MA schools.

Well most children's classes are like that but there are posters who have said it's mostly games etc rather than actual martial arts taught at 3/4. My opinion has nothing to do with whether they put their skills to use or not, especially as they don't seem to learn any martial arts techniques, my objection is having classes of children as young as three. If it's for physical exercise etc then that's what it should be presented as, perhaps a 'toddlers gym/ready for martial arts' class or suchlike rather than a martial arts class if they aren't actually doing martial arts.

This is representative of the UK on the whole, the Budokwai is a very old club, they have a class for 3 year olds but it is not a Judo class, it's called 'Pre Judo class' they don't teach martial arts. They have a 'Judo Gym' class from 6 months+ but for parents/carers and their babies again not martial arts. this is the type of class that is useful and suitable for toddlers, along with their parents/carers rather than unaccompanied in a martial arts class.http://budokwai.co.uk/judogym
but I'm thinking as has been said this is a cultural difference as much as anything.

In the US, they're usually just called "kids' classes" or "little dragons" or something like that. When parents come in to ask about classes, they're given a run-down of what the classes are like, but the term "martial arts" is rarely used to describe classes at any level, except as a blanket term for all MA-related stuff.