Things that are ridiculous in Martial Arts

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

But the same is true of KKW Taekwondo, and yet you have vastly different skillsets coming out of different schools. Some are more traditional self-defense focused, some have excellent forms, some are championship-worthy sparrers, others have great demonstration teams. Some have multiple or all of these things, and some are just rubbish.

Do people go to different TKD schools challenging them if their black belts are undeserved?

 

[Buka]

I haven't met her so I really can't say.

I've met her a hundred times if you know what I mean.

 

[dvcochran]

There has been more than one KKW Grandmaster on this forum who have said that, basically, they would sign off on an equivalent Dan rank for anyone with a Dan ranking in any other style of TKD.

You need to qualify that. If they are saying anyone walking in their dojang with a certificate from XXX will get a KKW certificate from day one, then yeah that is wrong. Any Grandmaster/Master/Instructor/Teacher worth their salt will want to spend time with the person in class and if possible do a background check, at the very least. Unless they are on the KKW Dan committee it is not their call anyway. They can only recommend a promotion to the committee.
Does hob-knobbing go? I don't know but I am certain it is no more than any other organization in any other style or sport.
I tested for my 5th Dan KKW this year and I can assure you it isn't a cake walk. The girl test under ATA which I have no idea if it is more or less stringent. As I said earlier to @jobo she should be near the height of her physical abilities FWIW. Where she falls in with the rest of the traditional requirements is anybody's guess.

 

[dvcochran]

I agree, excellent post.

It is ridiculous that I am a terrible student.When I quit MA, I had study it for 12 years. Over 30 years later I have started training again. You would think I would be a good student, but I not. When I see something that I feel is counter product, I don't say anything, but you can see it in my face.

I now train by myself, videos are helpful to remembering forms. I don't have a gym to work out in and I miss helping fellow students if they are having trouble with a technique. I coached various sports off and on for 40 years so I have a very good understanding of body mechanic and training methods. Maybe when I find the right teacher I can empty my cup and become a good student.

Get back on the mat @Bruce7 .

 

[dvcochran]

But the same is true of KKW Taekwondo, and yet you have vastly different skillsets coming out of different schools. Some are more traditional self-defense focused, some have excellent forms, some are championship-worthy sparrers, others have great demonstration teams. Some have multiple or all of these things, and some are just rubbish.

True. I started to comment on @drop bear 's post that most other styles have been around a lot longer than MMA and have evolved (for good or for bad)in different ways. TKD has certainly had more influences from external sources over the years. Much less than most purely CMA or JMA. There are more people practicing TKD by a factor of, a bagillion, so it is doing several things right.

 

[isshinryuronin]

well tell me, it's clear that some black bel awards are to very very capable individual, just as its equal clear that a good number are not, that then reenfforcrs my point that the system is flawed and the I'm a black belt statement is meaningless with out context of dojo you trained at

I definitely agree with you on this point - that's why in my post I qualified it with a "proper" sensei, which in my mind means a dojo where belts are hard earned and a credit to the term "black belt". That there is no governing body to recognize qualified instructors here in the USA, like in Japan and Okinawa, is a flaw in the system, but one I do not think will ever be corrected here. So, unfortunately, without knowing someone's dojo as a recognized quality school, one's black belt claims can only be proven in action.

I do not agree that when a black belt gets old or infirmed, the belt should be taken away. When a general retires, he is still
addressed as general. The same for a doctor (MD or PhD). The rank is not just what he is now, but a recognition of his experience, knowledge and past skill and dedication.

 

[drop bear]

But the same is true of KKW Taekwondo, and yet you have vastly different skillsets coming out of different schools. Some are more traditional self-defense focused, some have excellent forms, some are championship-worthy sparrers, others have great demonstration teams. Some have multiple or all of these things, and some are just rubbish.

Ok. We have 4 mma fighters. One bjj black belt. 2 of those guys have fought in the UFC. One of them is a veteran UFC fighter.

All come from different gyms with different approaches

They all have uniquely different styles and approaches. But none of them are duds at what they do.

Because these guys will turn up to our gym and will roll or spar and will publicly humiliate people.

There is very little room to swan about with an undeserved belt.

 

[drop bear]

Do people go to different TKD schools challenging them if their black belts are undeserved?

Not even challenging. If I roll up to another bjj school. I do it with my blue belt.

You can bet I am going to roll. And you can bet people are going to see if their blue belts can smash me.

And BJJ tourism is a real thing.

BJJ Globetrotters | Host a BJJ traveler

 

[dvcochran]

I definitely agree with you on this point - that's why in my post I qualified it with a "proper" sensei, which in my mind means a dojo where belts are hard earned and a credit to the term "black belt". That there is no governing body to recognize qualified instructors here in the USA, like in Japan and Okinawa, is a flaw in the system, but one I do not think will ever be corrected here. So, unfortunately, without knowing someone's dojo as a recognized quality school, one's black belt claims can only be proven in action.

I do not agree that when a black belt gets old or infirmed, the belt should be taken away. When a general retires, he is still
addressed as general. The same for a doctor (MD or PhD). The rank is not just what he is now, but a recognition of his experience, knowledge and past skill and dedication.

Agree. Some of my earliest post were regarding initiating some sort of school certification in the U.S. It was met with ridicule and scorn. I personally think it is a great idea and at least a start to a chronic problem. There are people with degrees from Harvard who can't pour piss out of a boot with the instructions on the heel. The same is true in virtually every walk of life where people get certification. Sad but true. Should that tarnish everyone who earns a belt? Absolutely not.
My college degrees are from a lesser know D1 school (Western Kentucky Univ). They mean as much to me as any Harvard degree for many reasons.

 

[dvcochran]

Not even challenging. If I roll up to another bjj school. I do it with my blue belt.

You can bet I am going to roll. And you can bet people are going to see if their blue belts can smash me.

And BJJ tourism is a real thing.

BJJ Globetrotters | Host a BJJ traveler

I used to travel a lot for work. I have worked out at multiple schools in every state except Hawaii and Alaska. I always prefaced a workout with a phone call if possible and always wore a BB, never a big deal. Often went back to the schools I really enjoyed. Just a workout. But I never led class or offered suggestions unless I was invited to a school specifically to do so. As much as possible would I spar. It was just a workout and a really good evaluation of my own skills and/or areas I needed to work on.
That should never be some kind of ego trip.

 

[JR 137]

First off, I never said that I find you ridiculous. I found one thing you expressed to be ridiculous. I express things that are ridiculous all the time... see any of my posts. (there are a few members here who would gladly point you to some of my ridiculous posts) While I find that one thing you said ridiculous, I have found many other things that I either agree with or learn from in your other posts.



1. Useless name dropping. I took a seminar once with a guy who was pretty good at his art. However, every time he went to a new technique or to make a new point about the one we were working on, he kept talking about how Bruce would do it, and what Bruce thought of things and how Bruce was when not in public, and generally made a point of chatting up how this Bruce guy was his good buddy. I went home and looked up this guy's training history... he never trained with Bruce, never lived anywhere near Bruce and would have been 7 or 8 years old when Bruce died. Sad part was that this guy's ability in his art and to teach... really didn't need the name dropping.

I just trained last night with a guy who dropped by the dojo on an open mat night. Since most of the senior instructor's were out, he wanted to teach a formal class and did so. After showing a technique, he started explaining how you really need to develop a certain flexibility... because when you train with Sensei X (very high ranked sensei in their art) you are required to have and use that flexibility all the time. Sensei X expects that and will tear you up if you don't have it. Except that I know for a fact, that the people on the mat, having trouble with his particular version of the technique he was teaching... could all do the version of that technique that they were taught... and that each one of them had more time training with Sensei X than the visiting sensei. This was again sad because, everyone just tuned him out... but his variation had some good things to it and was very useful.

2. Holding on to old myths. I still run into a disappointing number of instructors, who are great at their art and great instructors... but then throw out things like "punching the cartilage in the nose through the brain to kill." Or they talk about having "their hands registered as deadly weapons."

3. Assuming your rank gives authority. Now that I am a black belt I need to: assist the police, stop the bad guy, look for the bad guy, help people with their spirituality, be the moral and ethical compass of the community, have people visibly show their "respect" even outside the dojo... Your training gives you the same authority as a ballet dancer, swing dancer, weight lifter, jogger, guitar player... or couch potato. Just because you train punching and wrap a certain color thing around your waist, doesn't make you any more authority outside your school, than any other member of the community.

For real? People actually say that stuff?

We has a disassembled human skull in my undergrad anatomy and physiology lab. There’s a protrusion on the ethmoid bone called the chista galli. My professor was showing this and told us that’s the part that kills you when the nose is pushed into the skull. I told her I heard that was a myth, to which she very seriously and matter of factly told me a lot of martial arts train that and it’s a widely known fact it’s true.

I kept my mouth shut. No point in arguing against a Ph.D. who thinks she knows everything and controls my grade.

 

[Dirty Dog]

You need to qualify that. If they are saying anyone walking in their dojang with a certificate from XXX will get a KKW certificate from day one, then yeah that is wrong. Any Grandmaster/Master/Instructor/Teacher worth their salt will want to spend time with the person in class and if possible do a background check, at the very least. Unless they are on the KKW Dan committee it is not their call anyway. They can only recommend a promotion to the committee.
Does hob-knobbing go? I don't know but I am certain it is no more than any other organization in any other style or sport.
I tested for my 5th Dan KKW this year and I can assure you it isn't a cake walk. The girl test under ATA which I have no idea if it is more or less stringent. As I said earlier to @jobo she should be near the height of her physical abilities FWIW. Where she falls in with the rest of the traditional requirements is anybody's guess.

The offers made here amounted to anyone with Dan ranking from a non-KKW system could come out for a weekend to learn the KKW forms and be granted equivalent rank. They're not testing for the rank. They're transferring it.
And get real. If someone with the required KKW rank signs a recommendation, do you really think the KKW promotion committee is going to refuse it? They're a rubber stamp committee.

 

[JR 137]

IMO one of the most ridiculous things in MA is people getting worked up about things that have zero bearing on their training, skills, and journey.

A while back I was in a mall where a TKD chain school was giving an elaborate demo in the main square area. They were doing forms, breaking, point fighting, SD demos, stuff like that. Lots of music and balloons. I was watching it from my seat in the food court that overlooked the demo. There must’ve been 300 of them.

I’m waiting in line at Fat Burger (I love that place) and ahead of me is a young lady with 4 stripes on her black belt. One end says Sensei whatever her name is. All the patches and fixins’ on her uniform.

She sits down behind my wife and I to eat with I’m assuming her mother. Her mother says “I can’t wait until you’re old enough to drive so I don’t have to take you to these things anymore.”

Yeah, really supportive mother. I felt bad for her. And yeah, 4th degree black belt who isn’t old enough to drive.

I found it comical. It has no bearing on me whatsoever. Why get worked up about it? My training hasn’t changed a bit since I saw her.

I read about a 15 or so year old 6th degree black belt online. That hasn’t had any effect on me either. Actually it did - I laughed at it and all the people who got worked up about it. Sure that stuff is wrong, but I don’t get to make the rules, nor do I want to.

 

[drop bear]

IMO one of the most ridiculous things in MA is people getting worked up about things that have zero bearing on their training, skills, and journey.

A while back I was in a mall where a TKD chain school was giving an elaborate demo in the main square area. They were doing forms, breaking, point fighting, SD demos, stuff like that. Lots of music and balloons. I was watching it from my seat in the food court that overlooked the demo. There must’ve been 300 of them.

I’m waiting in line at Fat Burger (I love that place) and ahead of me is a young lady with 4 stripes on her black belt. One end says Sensei whatever her name is. All the patches and fixins’ on her uniform.

She sits down behind my wife and I to eat with I’m assuming her mother. Her mother says “I can’t wait until you’re old enough to drive so I don’t have to take you to these things anymore.”

Yeah, really supportive mother. I felt bad for her. And yeah, 4th degree black belt who isn’t old enough to drive.

I found it comical. It has no bearing on me whatsoever. Why get worked up about it? My training hasn’t changed a bit since I saw her.

I read about a 15 or so year old 6th degree black belt online. That hasn’t had any effect on me either. Actually it did - I laughed at it and all the people who got worked up about it. Sure that stuff is wrong, but I don’t get to make the rules, nor do I want to.

Would you feel the same if that black belt was a doctor?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Would you feel the same if that black belt was a doctor?

Maybe. But they aren't.

 

[dvcochran]

IMO one of the most ridiculous things in MA is people getting worked up about things that have zero bearing on their training, skills, and journey.

A while back I was in a mall where a TKD chain school was giving an elaborate demo in the main square area. They were doing forms, breaking, point fighting, SD demos, stuff like that. Lots of music and balloons. I was watching it from my seat in the food court that overlooked the demo. There must’ve been 300 of them.

I’m waiting in line at Fat Burger (I love that place) and ahead of me is a young lady with 4 stripes on her black belt. One end says Sensei whatever her name is. All the patches and fixins’ on her uniform.

She sits down behind my wife and I to eat with I’m assuming her mother. Her mother says “I can’t wait until you’re old enough to drive so I don’t have to take you to these things anymore.”

Yeah, really supportive mother. I felt bad for her. And yeah, 4th degree black belt who isn’t old enough to drive.

I found it comical. It has no bearing on me whatsoever. Why get worked up about it? My training hasn’t changed a bit since I saw her.

I read about a 15 or so year old 6th degree black belt online. That hasn’t had any effect on me either. Actually it did - I laughed at it and all the people who got worked up about it. Sure that stuff is wrong, but I don’t get to make the rules, nor do I want to.

I agree. Too many things are being handed out like participation trophies.
Being older I suppose I question just about everything. Even until I have been to the same doctor a few times I am not comfortable with them. Being honest, I do look at the wall to see how many different certifications they have. At least I know they have been going through some continued education.

I can draw the same line to a trade where certification is not common. I hire the same guys to do construction/carpentry work. They are pretty much evening/weekend drunks but man are they good at what they do. It took recommendations from others and a little faith on my part to give them a try. They are very good but you cannot count on them if you have a tight schedule. Not uncommon to lay out on Monday's. I suppose you could argue this makes them some kind of Master woodworker.

There becomes a point when I am confident in certifications. I think that is what we are all saying but seeing it from different perspectives. No person is a Master of all domains through their entire life. A great example is how some really good fighters become good coach or instructor after their fighting career is over.

Martial sport is being a specifist and Martial art is more general and wholly inclusive. A reason why many more people practice MA rather than MS. Things like age, life, and desires are big factors. They may not be "perfect" at every aspect but can learn to be very good and proficient at all of them.

Getting the next belt or stripe or star is checking the box to say they have learned a specific task(s) for most people. When the certification becomes self appointed or not in itself accredited, or given outside an established set of criteria, it raises some questions at the very least. Compromise can be a dangerous thing.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I agree. Too many things are being handed out like participation trophies.
Being older I suppose I question just about everything. Even until I have been to the same doctor a few times I am not comfortable with them. Being honest, I do look at the wall to see how many different certifications they have. At least I know they have been going through some continued education.

I can draw the same line to a trade where certification is not common. I hire the same guys to do construction/carpentry work. They are pretty much evening/weekend drunks but man are they good at what they do. It took recommendations from others and a little faith on my part to give them a try. They are very good but you cannot count on them if you have a tight schedule. Not uncommon to lay out on Monday's. I suppose you could argue this makes them some kind of Master woodworker.

There becomes a point when I am confident in certifications. I think that is what we are all saying but seeing it from different perspectives. No person is a Master of all domains through their entire life. A great example is how some really good fighters become good coach or instructor after their fighting career is over.

Martial sport is being a specifist and Martial art is more general and wholly inclusive. A reason why many more people practice MA rather than MS. Things like age, life, and desires are big factors. They may not be "perfect" at every aspect but can learn to be very good and proficient at all of them.

Getting the next belt or stripe or star is checking the box to say they have learned a specific task(s) for most people. When the certification becomes self appointed or not in itself accredited, or given outside an established set of criteria, it raises some questions at the very least. Compromise can be a dangerous thing.

I guess my view is different, largely because I spent most of my training time in a relatively small art. Looking around, I saw nobody using the same ranking criteria or even order of belts we used. So, it's different stuff. If someone out there wants to use belts to indicate how many calendar months someone's been a member of their organization/school, I can't see how that much affects me. If they want to use BB as "they got the foundation", that's fine. If they want to use belts to motivate people, that's up to them.

None of those are my approach, and I can't see the value in some of them, but it just doesn't seem relevant to what I do. I look at folks' rank with interest, merely because I'm curious. I've met folks in other systems who wore ranks higher than mine (my last awarded rank, almost 20 years ago, was shodan, when I was in an association) who looked to me as a "senior". I've met folks in other systems who wore ranks lower than mine who I'm happy to learn from, and who I think understand large swaths of stuff better than I do. I've met folks with more/fewer years who knew variously more or less than me about some things and might or might not be better than me in fighting. The ranks don't seem to have much bearing on any of that, except that folks with higher ranks seem somewhat more likely to have a real understanding of some nuances. But even that's not guaranteed.

So I don't really question rank much. I look at what they can do and/or what they can teach others to do. If it didn't bother anyone, I'd always wear my normal BB, wherever I'm training. Why? Because it's what I'm used to tying around my waist. If it bothered everyone, I'd just as happily get used to wearing something different. I kinda like white.

 

[drop bear]

Maybe. But they aren't.

This is because a doctors qualification is pretty universally considered important. So an 8 year old probably shouldn't prescribe treatment or hand out medications.

But martial arts instruction isn't. So an 8 year old can be considered an authority in it.

The difference whether disapproving of an 8 year old 4th dan is ok. To me seems to me the difference between whether results matter in martial arts.

If results don't matter then we are being mean to some kid.

If they do. Then the kid has been ripped of and is complicit in ripping off others.

Even headhunter who is the flag ship of happiness is more important than results in martial arts is an advocate of results first when it comes to weight loss.

Look this kind of thing you shouldn't just be taking any random persons advice. Go to a nutritionist or a personal trainer or go to a doctor and get advice from people you know are legit. You've got to do what works for you as well and work on the balance. Internets good for some stuff it's also good for getting any random persons opinions on everything. Whether they know about it or not. Talk to the pros that's the best option

 

[Gerry Seymour]

This is because a doctors qualification is pretty universally considered important. So an 8 year old probably shouldn't prescribe treatment or hand out medications.

But martial arts instruction isn't. So an 8 year old can be considered an authority in it.

The difference whether disapproving of an 8 year old 4th dan is ok. To me seems to me the difference between whether results matter in martial arts.

If results don't matter then we are being mean to some kid.

If they do. Then the kid has been ripped of and is complicit in ripping off others.

Even headhunter who is the flag ship of happiness is more important than results in martial arts is an advocate of results first when it comes to weight loss.

Rank doesn't tell much about instructing ability. Students' ability is a better measure.

More to the point, I think the difference is more on the opinion of whether it's important that ranks be consistent across systems. I just don't think that's all that important. It's nice where they're important, but I think it's more or less impossible to judge different arts on the same scale, so the ranks will never really mean the same thing from one system to another. Just like a doctorate in law doesn't mean the same thing as a doctorate in English. They probably mean both people have some level of expertise (assuming both are from accredited institutions - perhaps the equivalent of associations in MA?), but that's about all we can say about them without getting into specifics of the field.

 

[Buka]

This somersaulting on bricks baked in an oven clip from the video survey thread might not be the most ridiculous thing I've seen in Martial Arts but it might be the most embarrassing.

65 10

Dickheads.