There WILL be death panels.

[Ken Morgan]

Thanks. Her passing was expected around Christmas. While it didn't prevent me from feeling gut-punched when it happened, it helped me get over it a little quicker.

:asian:
my sympathies too.

 

[billc]

On Zeke Emmanuel, former advisor to Obama on healthcare issues:

http://www.americanthinker.com/2009/08/hello_obamacare_goodbye_grandm_1.html

[FONT=times new roman,times]Zeke created the "[/FONT][FONT=times new roman,times]complete lives[/FONT][FONT=times new roman,times]" approach to health care. A complete life is one that contributes in thought and action to the "instrumental value principles" of the greater community. Complete lives "prioritizes younger people" and lifestyles that are likely to contribute to the "common good." Hello, instrumental values. Hello, government.[/FONT]


[FONT=times new roman,times]Zeke thinks health care should contribute to the common good. The community, led by the government, determines the common good. Zeke thinks about community. Zeke is an active "[/FONT][FONT=times new roman,times]communitarian[/FONT][FONT=times new roman,times]." Communitarianism is a [/FONT][FONT=times new roman,times]cross[/FONT][FONT=times new roman,times] between communism, socialism, atheism and new age. Hello, communitarianism. Hello, Marx, both [/FONT][FONT=times new roman,times]Groucho[/FONT][FONT=times new roman,times] and [/FONT][FONT=times new roman,times]Karl[/FONT][FONT=times new roman,times]. [/FONT]


[FONT=times new roman,times]Zeke the communitarian [/FONT][FONT=times new roman,times]believes[/FONT][FONT=times new roman,times] that health care should promote the public good, and develop "reasoning skills" that contribute to a "just society." In "[/FONT][FONT=times new roman,times]A Communitarian Health-Care Package[/FONT][FONT=times new roman,times]," Zeke asserts that "community-minded" leadership must make medical decisions for "more passive individuals." Communities should have the "power of exclusion" from health services over those who do not share their view of the common good. Think, Zeke, think.[/FONT]


[FONT=times new roman,times]See Zeke think. Community good must influence medical treatment. Some groups "whose notions of the good are rooted in the denigration of others" should be excluded from some medical resources. Government may deny medical services to an individual who is a "hostile adversary" of community good and groups that are "noxious weeds which gain their strength" by vehemently opposing community goals. Hello, government priorities.[/FONT]


[FONT=times new roman,times]Think, Zeke, think. Medical care is a means to [/FONT][FONT=times new roman,times]encourage[/FONT][FONT=times new roman,times] "healthy participation." Healthy participation means acceptance of community goals, structure, and policies. Hello, acceptance. Hello, healthy participation.[/FONT]

from zekes complete lives theory:

Importantly, the prioritisation of
adolescents and young adults considers the social and
personal investment that people are morally entitled to
have received at a particular age, rather than accepting the
results of an unjust status quo. Consequently, poor
adolescents should be treated the same as wealthy ones,
even though they may have received less investment owing
to social injustice.
The complete lives system also considers prognosis,
since its aim is to achieve complete lives. A young person
with a poor prognosis has had few life-years but lacks the
potential to live a complete life. Considering prognosis
forestalls the concern that disproportionately large
amounts of resources will be directed to young people with​

poor prognoses.42

 

[Scott T]

On Zeke Emmanuel, former advisor to Obama on healthcare issues:

http://www.americanthinker.com/2009/08/hello_obamacare_goodbye_grandm_1.html

Useless link. The author is apparently 10 years old.

 

[Ken Morgan]

The extremely young and the extremely old suffer the most under socialized healthcare systems. We have the presidents own healthcare expert talking about how to ration treatment to only the most productive citizens.

No class what so ever.

 

[Scott T]

No class what so ever.

Don't know about your part of the country, Ken, but in mine it's kids that get the priority care!

 

[billc]

Older people and the NHS in Britain...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/joepublic/2011/feb/15/poor-treatment-older-people-nhs

 

[billc]

this is a link to Zeke Emmanuels paper that discusses his research into healthcare and addresses his "complete lives" theory...

http://www.ncpa.org/pdfs/PIIS0140673609601379.pdf

I don't think the American thinker magazine is looked down on by most people.

From the article:

why the extremely young should fear Zeke:

Consideration of the importance of complete lives also
supports modifying the youngest-fi rst principle by
prioritising adolescents and young adults over infants
(fi gure). Adolescents have received substantial education
and parental care, investments that will be wasted without
a complete life. Infants, by contrast, have not yet received
these investments. Similarly, adolescence brings with it a
developed personality capable of forming and valuing
long-term plans whose fulfi lment requires a complete​

life.

77 As the legal philosopher Ronald Dworkin argues, “It

is terrible when an infant dies, but worse, most people
think, when a three-year-old child dies and worse still when
an adolescent does”;​

​

78 this argument is supported by
empirical surveys.41,7


Why the old should fear Zeke:

When implemented, the complete lives system produces
a priority curve on which individuals aged between
roughly 15 and 40 years get the most substantial chance,
whereas the youngest and oldest people get chances that​

are attenuated (fi gure).78
​

 

[Scott T]

this is a link to Zeke Emmanuels paper that discusses his research into healthcare and addresses his "complete lives" theory...

I thought your rant was against established 'socialist' healthcare systems, not some fantasy version thought up by a retard?

​

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Here's the thing with the whole "death panels" bit.

It's already here. If you have insurance AND you want the insurance to pay for treatment, you must submit it to the company which then decides if they will cover it or not. There are tests that can not be run until you exhibit certain symptoms, and other non-conclusive tests are first run. Part of why a lot of folks don't catch their cancers until they hit the untreatable stage. Early detection isn't covered.

Now, if you feel like paying out of pocket, you can have the best care possible, get all the tests you want done. You just have to pay for it.

Wait....it costs a **** load don't it?

Maybe that's because the current system includes bloat, graft, corruption and outright gouging in it?

Explain why a doctor visit costs $30 with insurance, $60 without, but is billed to the ins. company at $200?

The US system is broken, the recent changes break it more, and the only people hurting are the poor.

Medicare/cade can set up mandatory death squads at 60. Won't effect me, I don't use it. Won't effect Bill Gates either. I'm sure he has much better care than what the US Government will parcel out.

 

[billc]

Do you know who Zeke Emmanuel is?

 

[billc]

Obama's medicare Czar:

http://washingtonexaminer.com/opini...-medicare-czar-faces-life-and-death-decisions

from the article:

Two organizations not known as members of the Vast Right Wing Conspiracy are worried that President Obama's recess-appointed Medicare czar won't allow the government health care program to cover two FDA-approved anti-cancer drugs with proven records of extending patients' lives.
The FDA approved Provenge, which is used to fight prostate cancer, and Avastin, which is used to delay the spread of breast cancer after it appears elsewhere in the body. The problem is that Dr. Donald Berwick, the man Obama recess-appointed as administrator of the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid, appears to be considering denying Medicare reimbursement for patients using Provenge and Avastin.


Read more at the Washington Examiner: http://washingtonexaminer.com/opini...-faces-life-and-death-decisions#ixzz1OSzmmyPl

Meet Donald Berwick, medicare Czar:

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2010/11/17/meet_the_new_donald_berwick_107985.html

Berwick is in a position to fulfill his agenda, of transforming our healthcare system into one that resembles the British system, with its rationed care and inferior outcomes, unchecked and accountable to no one. This is a system to which he has professed his love and admiration. He has a dislike of our system of healthcare and disapproves of it. Here are some other "pearls" that have come directly from Dr. Berwick. "I cannot believe that the individual healthcare consumer can enforce through choice the proper configurations of a system as massive and complex as healthcare. That is for leaders to do." "Please don't put your faith in market forces. It's a popular idea: that Adam Smith's invisible hand would

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Given the 40 or so years of information on the benefits of pot for medical use that the government is ignoring simply because the tobacco lobby is threatened, I really don't trust the government in medial matters. Maybe one of Obama's "Czars" can explain to me where the USC allows them to even exist? Naw.

 

[Scott T]

Do you know who Zeke Emmanuel is?

If you're talking to me: don't know who he is, don't care.

 

[Tez3]

Older people and the NHS in Britain...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/joepublic/2011/feb/15/poor-treatment-older-people-nhs

Twist it how you like but that's not about 'death panels', it's about the poor treatment of elderly people. The discussion here has been about poor training, the recruitment of nursing staff and what hospitals have to do with to remedy the situation. One of the causes people have for complaint is that nurses are no longer carers. Several years ago we stopped nurse training being on the job, people used to become nurses because they wanted to help and tend people, you needed good intelligence but not necesarily academic qualifications. It was changed from being a hands on training to a university training, you have to have academic qualifications to enter nurse training now. Most of the training is done in the class room and many now feel we have nurses who literally don't know how to nurse and that we are attracting the wrong sort of person for the job which is resulting in the lack of basic nursing care for the elderly in particular who can be very hard to look after.

This isn't a panel of people deciding to kill off older people, this is neglect by nurses who should have been taught better. They may well shine in the classroom but that's not what nursing is about.

 

[Sensei Payne]

Scott is Canadian. They don't have competing insurance companies that bribe government officials and screw poor people like we do. They just have the one that works.

When it comes to medical care, I don't belive anyone should be turned away when they are sick or hurt.

But it is true, the ER in the States MUST treat you, and "Stablize" you, but after they are done with that, most times, minor treatment. They send you on your way, with a bill that puts you into economic slavery.

If I got cancer right now, even though I have a job with insurence, I would most likely have to declare bankrupsy(sp?)...I am 24 years old, that just isn't right.

I don't agree with everything that he does, but I really enjoyed Michael Moore's movie "Sicko"..if you have the oppertunity I insist that you see it...really well put together Documentary film.

 

[Twin Fist]

Useless link. The author is apparently 10 years old.

see, NOW you are being a jerk, and not helping your case.

dont attack the source, attack the message, IF YOU CAN

IF YOU CANT, then just be quiet.

if you like it, FINE you stay there and take your going bankrupt crapola healthcare

I and the rest of america will continue to stay here and get the best in the world.

There is a reason we dont care what other countries do.

 

[Twin Fist]

When it comes to medical care, I don't belive anyone should be turned away when they are sick or hurt.

But it is true, the ER in the States MUST treat you, and "Stablize" you, but after they are done with that, most times, minor treatment. They send you on your way, with a bill that puts you into economic slavery.

bull *****

that is simply an uninformed and flat out incorrect statement.

if you cant pay the bill, the hospital will not come and take your **** till it is paid off. Credit agencies in the states dont even let medical bills effect your credit rating.

you pay them off as you can, and they never hound you for it.

and why SHOULDNT you have to pay for it?

NOTHING IS FREE

if you get something that costs nothing, that is usually what it is worth, NOTHING


and BTW: Commenting on how cool you thnk Micheal Moore is? that NEVER helps you get taken seriously

 

[Scott T]

see, NOW you are being a jerk, and not helping your case.

dont attack the source, attack the message, IF YOU CAN

IF YOU CANT, then just be quiet.

if you like it, FINE you stay there and take your going bankrupt crapola healthcare

I and the rest of america will continue to stay here and get the best in the world.

There is a reason we dont care what other countries do.

Did you even read it? Apparently the person who wrote it is at 'Dick and Jane' level of education.

As for Canada's 'bankrupt' system: You can either show verifiable proof (which you won't be able to find, and I offer as proof a string of Federal balanced budgets (of which healthcare is included in) up until Harper's stimulus deficit in 2009, or you can shut the **** up about something you know nothing about.

 

[Sensei Payne]

bull *****

that is simply an uninformed and flat out incorrect statement.

if you cant pay the bill, the hospital will not come and take your **** till it is paid off. Credit agencies in the states dont even let medical bills effect your credit rating.

you pay them off as you can, and they never hound you for it.

and why SHOULDNT you have to pay for it?

NOTHING IS FREE

if you get something that costs nothing, that is usually what it is worth, NOTHING


and BTW: Commenting on how cool you thnk Micheal Moore is? that NEVER helps you get taken seriously

yes they do hound you for it..my brother had a hernia surgery 9 months ago, and they call him everyday, since he can't make the payments.

and I am not saying it should all be free at all, it should be done by percentage, especially a life saving procedure. Should Lasik be free, no..should lipo be free, no...but should removing a tumor from someone be free..maybe not completely...but they shouldn't be charged into economic slavery because they got sick.

btw I simply said Micheal Moore stated a few good stats in Sicko...I'm not a big Fan of ALL of his work. So please don't take it out of context...his stuff is generally available to everyone, hence the reference.

 

[Twin Fist]

you are out of your depth Scott.

http://www.thecomingdepression.net/...ealthcare-bankrupt-warning-to-usas-obamacare/

Healthcare in Canada is delivered through a publicly funded system, which covers all “medically necessary” hospital and physician care and curbs the role of private medicine. It ate up about 40 percent of provincial budgets, or some C$183 billion ($174 billion) last year.


40 %


http://www.ic.gc.ca/eic/site/bsf-osb.nsf/vwapj/Redish-Sarra-Schabas-2006-ENG.pdf/$FILE/Redish-Sarra-Schabas-2006-ENG.pdf

an increasing number of canadian banrupcies are due to medical costs incured when treatments NOT ALLOWED under your crapola healthcare system are used.

http://www.american.com/archive/2009/august/the-medical-bankruptcy-myth

Dranove and Millenson critically analyzed the data from the 2005 edition of the medical bankruptcy study. They found that medical spending was a contributing factor in only 17 percent of U.S. bankruptcies.

lets see: Canada 15% America 17% hmmm...it doesnt seem to help much in avoiding bankrupcies does it........



lookie here.

My second post explained why your system will fail. The demand is limitless. No one ever thinks they are "too healthy" so if there is no monetary reason not to go to the doctor, then people will go everytime they get a funny feeling in thier toe....

eventually , that WILL overwhelm the system

some areas are already spending 40% of thier budgets on medical care.

thats only going to increase.

NOTHING IS FREE