There WILL be death panels.

[LuckyKBoxer]

I would like to point out, however, that in our current privatized system, the deciding factor in all those questions is "where it's profitable for the insurance company." Twin Fist seems perfectly fine with that being the measure. I and many others seem to have a problem with it.

no its not. It is based on what your insurance policy states.
the key is understanding that and obtaining and keeping what you feel comfortable with

 

[LuckyKBoxer]

Just remember, in the US, a person on death row, must be given all possible aid, until the date of his execution comes up.

Also, viagra for prisoners.

What a country.

we did away with viagra for prisoners in California... actually I think it might be one of the only good things the sperminator, ermm the governator, ermm the terminator... ah crap i mean Arnold actually did for us here.

 

[LuckyKBoxer]

Now you're dipping into the 'hopeless' area. If the cancer has spread that much, If the chemotherapy didn't stop it, he's terminal. He'll basically be advised to make peace with whatever god he believes in, because while they can stop the pain up to a point, they're not going to be able to stop him from dying.

The most he'll be able to hope for is a breakthrough or remission.

how do you know hes terminal? and can not be treated, or how do you make that assessment after the first transplant? the second? the sixth? what?

 

[Tez3]

ok so you are saying the limit is based on priority, so money is not a limitation just who is the closest to dying?

I refuse to use your sister as an example, its classless and will only instigate poor feelings and fighting..

but lets say a man has cancer in his liver... close to dying they give him a transplant... the cancer is found to spread to his kidney so they give him a new kidney... his other kidney get cancer, so they remove it or replace it... now it goes to his heart, so they replace that.... then it goes to eye, so they remove that... then his tongue... do you just keep working on the person and treating them no matter the cost, or at some point do you say ok we have to move on? and if you do move on what is the factor? that he was not savable, or that it costs to much money?

In this case it's not about money, it's about quality of life. Many patients on chemo decide to stop treatment and die a dignified death after putting their affairs in orde ras they realise the pain and suffering they are going through for those few extra days simply isn't worth it and they would like to spend peaceful days with their loved ones before they die.

I think this is less about money than people think, it's about people thinking they should live forever, its tied up with the whole loooking younger, Botox,face lift thing. We simply can't accept that it's natural to grow old and to die. I think we need to take a few steps back as a society and look at the things we value and a peaceful death shouold be one of those things as should be accepting of death when it's your time. I'm not saying we should just lay down and die but we need to accept that the medical profession however much money we have cannot keep us alive forever. Talking about death is the big taboo these days, we can discuss our sex lives in public with absolutely no qualms but talk about death and dying and you are shut up very quickly. Stop looking at the money and start realising that we will all die so how do we make the best of what time we have? We cannot stay alive at any price, the cost is actually far greater than money.

 

[Scott T]

how do you know hes terminal? and can not be treated, or how do you make that assessment after the first transplant? the second? the sixth? what?

Gotta draw a line somewhere. And before you try to claim this as a victory of some sort I've already said -- in my example -- that lines are drawn.

 

[LuckyKBoxer]

In this case it's not about money, it's about quality of life. Many patients on chemo decide to stop treatment and die a dignified death after putting their affairs in orde ras they realise the pain and suffering they are going through for those few extra days simply isn't worth it and they would like to spend peaceful days with their loved ones before they die.

I think this is less about money than people think, it's about people thinking they should live forever, its tied up with the whole loooking younger, Botox,face lift thing. We simply can't accept that it's natural to grow old and to die. I think we need to take a few steps back as a society and look at the things we value and a peaceful death shouold be one of those things as should be accepting of death when it's your time. I'm not saying we should just lay down and die but we need to accept that the medical profession however much money we have cannot keep us alive forever. Talking about death is the big taboo these days, we can discuss our sex lives in public with absolutely no qualms but talk about death and dying and you are shut up very quickly. Stop looking at the money and start realising that we will all die so how do we make the best of what time we have? We cannot stay alive at any price, the cost is actually far greater than money.

great post Tez

 

[RandomPhantom700]

...the sperminator...

I hadn't heard this one yet, thanks for it! :rofl:

 

[LuckyKBoxer]

Gotta draw a line somewhere. And before you try to claim this as a victory of some sort I've already said -- in my example -- that lines are drawn.

ok so you agree that unlimited health care is not a right.

so then the next question to answer is what is the limit?

is it what the doctor feels is appropriate?
is it what the patient feels is appropriate?
is it what the insurance feels is appropriate based on coverage?
is it what society feels is appropriate?
is it based on need or desire?
is it based on age?

 

[LuckyKBoxer]

I hadn't heard this one yet, thanks for it! :rofl:

its not mine, someone on the radio coined it, I damn near spit gatorade all over my car when i heard it coming home from training one night.

 

[Scott T]

ok so you agree that unlimited health care is not a right.

so then the next question to answer is what is the limit?

is it what the doctor feels is appropriate?
is it what the patient feels is appropriate?
is it what the insurance feels is appropriate based on coverage?
is it what society feels is appropriate?
is it based on need or desire?
is it based on age?

In my opinion the final arbiter should be doctor, as he/she's most versed in the practicality.

 

[LuckyKBoxer]

In my opinion the final arbiter should be doctor, as he/she's most versed in the practicality.

wow thats scary
I do not want anyone but me making decisions for me.
I want the most knowledgable person giving me advice, but I want the final say to be mine. Thats why I pay for the best insurance I can, so I can make the choice..
I am really surprised that anyone would choose anyone else but themselves to be honest.

I prefer to go to a barber and ask for a haircut I want, not what he thinks I should have
I also prefer to go to a store and buy the clothes I like, not what the clerk thinks I should have.
I can go on and on...
to hear someone say anyone but themselves just seems scary as hell to me..

 

[Scott T]

wow thats scary
I do not want anyone but me making decisions for me.
I want the most knowledgable person giving me advice, but I want the final say to be mine. Thats why I pay for the best insurance I can, so I can make the choice..
I am really surprised that anyone would choose anyone else but themselves to be honest.

I prefer to go to a barber and ask for a haircut I want, not what he thinks I should have
I also prefer to go to a store and buy the clothes I like, not what the clerk thinks I should have.
I can go on and on...
to hear someone say anyone but themselves just seems scary as hell to me..

I was originally going to put doctor and patient together, but the patient is fueled by one desire: to live.

A great desire. Personally, I love that desire.

But how many patients know their internal organs a well as they know their hair.

Especially in our TV-infested world where they see a character on House with the same problem they have and demand to be treated by the same ******** Hollywood cure that is as far from reality as Hollywood can get.

A competent doctor knows a patient's body a hell of a lot better than the patient does, generally speaking, and has a better knowkedge of what'll work and what won't.

 

[LuckyKBoxer]

I was originally going to put doctor and patient together, but the patient is fueled by one desire: to live.

A great desire. Personally, I love that desire.

But how many patients know their internal organs a well as they know their hair.

Especially in our TV-infested world where they see a character on House with the same problem they have and demand to be treated by the same ******** Hollywood cure that is as far from reality as Hollywood can get.

A competent doctor knows a patient's body a hell of a lot better than the patient does, generally speaking, and has a better knowkedge of what'll work and what won't.

there are always at least two choices to make, and most often there are many to choose from.

 

[Scott T]

there are always at least two choices to make, and most often there are many to choose from.

And who'd have a better idea of what the best choices would be, a doctor or a construction worker?

Besides, A doctor usually makes the final choice anyway. When they advise you of your options, they usually make their first choice sound a little bit better to the patient.

 

[Empty Hands]

wow thats scary
I do not want anyone but me making decisions for me.

It's not that way already. Do you want the newest and latest experimental treatment still in clinical trials? That decision isn't yours. Have you already rejected a heart and you want to try three more? Too bad, you'll never get another heart again, unless maybe you are a child. You want to try marijuana to ease your terminal pain? Not your choice in most states either. You don't even get to decide if you want to take an antibiotic for your infection or opioids for your pain. You only have the right of refusal, if you want almost any medical treatment other than OTC meds, someone else will be making that decision for you.

As it is now, patients only get heroic cost intervention until their insurance or their bank account holds out. After that, no more heroic interventions. Ever notice the hard cost limits that most insurance policies put into place to limit this sort of thing? Look hard, it's probably there. One policy I had for a little while (not my choice) had a lifetime maximum of $500,000. You could go through that in a few days of heroic intervention. After that, I would be left to die.

The system already is how you don't want it to be.

 

[LuckyKBoxer]

It's not that way already. Do you want the newest and latest experimental treatment still in clinical trials? That decision isn't yours. Have you already rejected a heart and you want to try three more? Too bad, you'll never get another heart again, unless maybe you are a child. You want to try marijuana to ease your terminal pain? Not your choice in most states either. You don't even get to decide if you want to take an antibiotic for your infection or opioids for your pain. You only have the right of refusal, if you want almost any medical treatment other than OTC meds, someone else will be making that decision for you.

As it is now, patients only get heroic cost intervention until their insurance or their bank account holds out. After that, no more heroic interventions. Ever notice the hard cost limits that most insurance policies put into place to limit this sort of thing? Look hard, it's probably there. One policy I had for a little while (not my choice) had a lifetime maximum of $500,000. You could go through that in a few days of heroic intervention. After that, I would be left to die.

The system already is how you don't want it to be.

speak for your own crappy insurance. I have excercised many options on our families health care. I was even told by my doctor that a certain "lump" on my back was not a problem, I exercised the option to cancel her suggestion and had her remove it and test it. It came up as no problem, and I did not have to pay a dime other then my normal copay. So obviously some insurances have more choices and options then you would have people believe. I guess you just have to choose to exercise them

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Insurance plans are not created equal in the US.
Like I said, Bill Gates doesn't have to worry about what Medicaid limits.

 

[Scott T]

speak for your own crappy insurance. I have excercised many options on our families health care. I was even told by my doctor that a certain "lump" on my back was not a problem, I exercised the option to cancel her suggestion and had her remove it and test it. It came up as no problem, and I did not have to pay a dime other then my normal copay. So obviously some insurances have more choices and options then you would have people believe. I guess you just have to choose to exercise them

Well, that and your insurance premiums. Can't forget about them.

 

[LuckyKBoxer]

Well, that and your insurance premiums. Can't forget about them.

thats kind of been my point all along thanks