The Wing Chun fighting stance explained

[Kung Fu Wang]

When your opponent uses boxing guard, his center is exposed.

If you can move in and extend your

- left arm between his right arm and his head,
- right arm between his left arm and his head,

you will dominate his "front door". So boxing guard is not perfect.

The WC guard will make the above "front door entry" very difficult.

 

[Martial D]

Hmmm, so your saying the training might impact on the fighting??


What was it about the extended guard that didn't work for you?

Have you also dropped blocking?

Good questions.

First, the WC guard sits about sternum level, both hands lined up with center. In theory, you move fast enough from there to stop incoming strikes along the centerline to close to trapping/chi sau range and beat them at the short game. This is problematic for many reasons.

1) your hands are only covering the center of your upper body. From here any strike hits you if you don't move.

2) from 1. This hand positioning not only requires that you be significantly faster than your opponent, you also need to be able to read his strikes before he throws them. Unless you are a superhuman, this isn't realistic

3) even if you are somehow that fast, anything coming on a curved line requires you to shift your body position/centerline to stop, which requires you to be even more superhuman, especially if you get two in a row from opposite sides.

4) the strikes you can throw from there are extremely limited, and lack the sort of power you can get elsewise.

5) the stance is quite rooted for a system that requires slick and quick entries to work.

Now as for 'blocking', yes and no. I keep my hands high so I am covered, and 'block' by either using a short pak sau/parry or by rolling my shoulders up into a 'hair comb ' cover. This combined with foot movement, head movement, slips and weaves. The best 'block' imo is making him miss.

If you mean, do I throw my arm out to meet his arm...no...never.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

do I throw my arm out to meet his arm...no...never.

You don't have to throw your arm to meet your opponent's arm. When you punch your opponent's head, if he blocks, your arm will meet his arm.

You let the fish to swim toward your bait.

 

[DaveB]

Good questions.

First, the WC guard sits about sternum level, both hands lined up with center. In theory, you move fast enough from there to stop incoming strikes along the centerline to close to trapping/chi sau range and beat them at the short game. This is problematic for many reasons.

1) your hands are only covering the center of your upper body. From here any strike hits you if you don't move.

2) from 1. This hand positioning not only requires that you be significantly faster than your opponent, you also need to be able to read his strikes before he throws them. Unless you are a superhuman, this isn't realistic

3) even if you are somehow that fast, anything coming on a curved line requires you to shift your body position/centerline to stop, which requires you to be even more superhuman, especially if you get two in a row from opposite sides.

4) the strikes you can throw from there are extremely limited, and lack the sort of power you can get elsewise.

5) the stance is quite rooted for a system that requires slick and quick entries to work.

Now as for 'blocking', yes and no. I keep my hands high so I am covered, and 'block' by either using a short pak sau/parry or by rolling my shoulders up into a 'hair comb ' cover. This combined with foot movement, head movement, slips and weaves. The best 'block' imo is making him miss.

If you mean, do I throw my arm out to meet his arm...no...never.

Fair enough. I've never trained with anyone who held their guard as low as in the image above. I have to wonder if that wasn't an effect of old age that was copied across generations.

I agree about the stance as well, largely because the way you use an extended guard is with distance management. Mobility is key to the method. However, I suspect that the staff form and wooden dummy forms are meant to expand on this aspect of the art.

The stance and footwork of the staff form is completely different and a good lesson in mobility.

 

[wckf92]

However, I suspect that the staff form and wooden dummy forms are meant to expand on this aspect of the art.

The stance and footwork of the staff form is completely different and a good lesson in mobility.

...and the BJD form

 

[KPM]

Good questions.

First, the WC guard sits about sternum level, both hands lined up with center. In theory, you move fast enough from there to stop incoming strikes along the centerline to close to trapping/chi sau range and beat them at the short game. This is problematic for many reasons.

1) your hands are only covering the center of your upper body. From here any strike hits you if you don't move.

2) from 1. This hand positioning not only requires that you be significantly faster than your opponent, you also need to be able to read his strikes before he throws them. Unless you are a superhuman, this isn't realistic

3) even if you are somehow that fast, anything coming on a curved line requires you to shift your body position/centerline to stop, which requires you to be even more superhuman, especially if you get two in a row from opposite sides.

4) the strikes you can throw from there are extremely limited, and lack the sort of power you can get elsewise.

5) the stance is quite rooted for a system that requires slick and quick entries to work.

Now as for 'blocking', yes and no. I keep my hands high so I am covered, and 'block' by either using a short pak sau/parry or by rolling my shoulders up into a 'hair comb ' cover. This combined with foot movement, head movement, slips and weaves. The best 'block' imo is making him miss.

If you mean, do I throw my arm out to meet his arm...no...never.

Good points about the classic Wing Chun guard. And I'll point out about that last part....you just described a version of "Wing Chun Boxing"!

 

[KPM]

Fair enough. I've never trained with anyone who held their guard as low as in the image above. I have to wonder if that wasn't an effect of old age that was copied across generations.

.

The image of Ip Man is pretty standard practice. Augustine Fong used to hold his guard even lower. It is more of just a "preparatory position" before going into action than any kind of real "guard." Because as John has pointed out, it doesn't really "guard" against anything other than a strike directly down the center. And I don't think it was intended to! Wing Chun tends to be a fairly aggressive method, you shouldn't just be standing still waiting for the opponent to do something and then passively receive strikes when he does! Hence Wing Chun doesn't really use a "guard" in the same way as Boxing. You simply put your hands out in front ready for action, and then go straight in to take the initiative. And this fits with what I noted before about Wing Chun being an "ambush" style and not a "stand and exchange" style.

When you look at the forms of most martial arts, they "strike poses" or assume guards and ready positions during the forms. Wing Chun forms are not like that. Where do you ever see a "guard position" in any Wing Chun form? Some have said that the move during the 1st section of the dummy form where you shoot your hand out to go between the dummy arms is the using the Wing Chun guard. But I don't think so. Again, having the hands out if front is just a convenient place to start from. Granted, William Cheung's dummy form is different because he pauses between each section. When you pause, you have to leave your hands somewhere! And again its just a convenient place for your hands to be when preparing for action. I don't think its any more than that.

 

[Hanzou]

I give up, our species is doomed.

What's the problem? We have Wing Chun instructors getting embarrassed and there's next to no counter examples. What's worse, these situations reinforce preconceived notions of the art itself.

Please keep in mind, there's nothing wrong with this happening if you're not promoting your art as something akin to the fighting arts. If you're promoting this MA as a spiritual pursuit, or something that isn't fighting-based, then there isn't a problem with your instructors getting pummeled in challenge matches, or the art being absent from MMA almost entirely.

When you start saying that WC is right there with Boxing and Bjj, then you need to start producing results.

 

[Martial D]

Good points about the classic Wing Chun guard. And I'll point out about that last part....you just described a version of "Wing Chun Boxing"!

LOL. You could call it that..although I wouldn't. (Although if we are strictly boxing that's EXACTLY what you'd call it I suppose)

What I do could reasonably be called wing Chun Thai boxing or kickboxing I guess, but with grappling.

 

[JowGaWolf]

he WC guard will make the above "front door entry" very difficult.

but it opens the side doors.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

but it opens the side doors.

Agree! The WC guard make the "separate hands - separate arms away from the body" difficult to apply.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Agree! The WC guard make the "separate hands - separate arms away from the body" difficult to apply.

When one space opens another closes. It's only natural

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

When one space opens another closes. It's only natural

The extended WC guard is like a spear that can drill a hole through the boxing guard. WC guys should try to use it to the maximum.

 

[Tez3]

Yeah, an art that can be traced back at least as far as 1850, and by legend mid 1700's would certainly be influenced by something that came 100-200 years later in a foreign country...

The mechanics of power delivery and weight distribution are entirely different. Any influence Boxing would have had on WC would be since the 1960's.

'Boxing' has been around in UK and Europe for millennia, the ancient Greeks did boxing as did the Romans and Egyptians. The East India Company btw were in China from the early 17th century CE, the Europeans there since the 16th century CE. There has been recent evidence too that the ancient Greeks were in China.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...-alexander-the-great-marco-polo-a7357606.html

Now whether the two styles share anything in common or not I'll let others discuss but your dates are wrong. European involvement in China goes back to the 16th century CE, at least, may well be further back.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Well. We have mma. Where we can see schools success.

If they compete. Most do not. It’s a reasonable assumption that those who don’t compete are less capable than those who do, but it doesn’t set an objective standard for competence.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

It should be noted that a lot of the guys in those videos are Wing Chun instructors.

Here's one such example:

The reach difference in that one is pretty extreme. It exacerbates the difficulty of using straight WC against a competent fighter, making the WC look worse.

 

[JowGaWolf]

The reach difference in that one is pretty extreme. It exacerbates the difficulty of using straight WC against a competent fighter, making the WC look worse.

That's my favorite video. They pick the guy with 8 foot arms to spar against lol.

Even though it looks bad you can still see some concepts that are true regardless. When you punch straight then you are open on the sides. When you punch circular then you are open in the middle. The Wing Chun practitioner didn't understand this and as a result ate a lot of punches from the side. There are some other things that the WC practitioner didn't understand as well. The long reach is an advantage and disadvantage. If a person is good at getting inside of that range then the long reach becomes a disadvantage. The Winch Chun Practitioner didn't know how to do this.

From what I've seen and heard from discussion here. It seems there are 2 main types of Wing Chun Practitioners.

• Those who strictly limit "What Wing Chun should be"
• Those who are willing to go beyond those limits "To show what Wing Chun Principles can be/"

There is a documentary somewhere on Youtube that shows the difference between the footwork within the 2 Wing Chun perspectives.

For me personally. Not sure I would try to highlight Jow Ga against someone with such a long reach advantage. I notice that they didn't do kicks in that video and that only gives the guy with a longer reach more of an advantage

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

The reach difference in that one is pretty extreme. It exacerbates the difficulty of using straight WC against a competent fighter, making the WC look worse.

Every time that we discuss WC chain punches, I like to put up this clip.

When you punch straight then you are open on the sides.

In order for your opponent to punch through your side doors,

- his right arm has to go through the left side of your left arm, and
- his left arm has to go through the right side of your right arm.

This will give you a perfect opportunity to separate his arms away from his head. You can then occupy his front door.

IMO, the WC system may only emphasize the center line theory as a striking art. It doesn't address the "front door control" from the throwing art point of view.

Here is an example when a wrestler controls his opponent's front door. When your arm can separate your opponent's arms away from his head, you will have many advantages.

 

[Hanzou]

The reach difference in that one is pretty extreme. It exacerbates the difficulty of using straight WC against a competent fighter, making the WC look worse.

Wing Chun is supposedly designed for smaller fighters against larger fighters with a size and reach advantage, so the WC instructor should have been in his wheelhouse against the boxer. Instead we see a catastrophic failure from start to finish.

Not a good look anyway you slice it.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Wing Chun is supposedly designed for smaller fighters against larger fighters with a size and reach advantage, so the WC instructor should have been in his wheelhouse against the boxer. Instead we see a catastrophic failure from start to finish.

Not a good look anyway you slice it.

He looks like someone who never dealt with round punches (as KFW pointed out, that's a visible weakness in the traditional guard). He might have done a bit better if he could have gotten inside, but he wasn't equipped to make that move from as far away as was necessary to overcome those long arms.

This is an area where an overly-limited view of WC probably makes weaknesses into gaps. And when you add the reach advantage, nearly all weaknesses become even weaker.