OK - lets take a look at some of the...
It's fine you sitting there pontificating and lecturing to us.
Most of this thread, I've just been asking questions. For the rest of it, I've been pointing out the terrible costs of these wars and saying that it wasn't worth it. I know you don't want to hear that. I know you have a lot invested in the war and you want to make something good happen, especially because you've seen so many good men and women go in there and get ground up, but it is the unavoidable truth. When you look at how much this costs us now and will cost us in the future, and if you look at this war like an investment, it's hard to find a single good thing that this will bring to us. It's time for all of the nations involved wake up and smell the fecal matter they stepped in and clean it off their boots.
I find it extremely odd too that John with his self confessed criminal record of violence also chooses to lecture us on war etc.
There are about four fallacies packed into this statement and I'm not going to bother pointing them out. However, I find it ironic that people can put on a costume, kill a whole bunch of people, and come home and be called heroes. Meanwhile, in a different time and different place, this makes a person a monster. This is completely irrational...and unfortunately it's how our society works. I think if people were exposed to philosophy more, we'd probably start to address some of these contradictions.
The people in Afghan, well the men at any rate have probably got more say so in the running of their country than we have in ours, there are weekly shurias with the village elders, the triable elders and others where they get there say, what they want to happen, they discuss what's happening and what they want to happen, permission is sought from them for various things and they are being led to take more and more responsibility for their country all the time, we are gearing up to leave and we are trying to make sure that when we do we leave a structure behind that will survive.
It's starting to look as if the politicians are trying to find a way to leave and make this look like a win. The truth is that any government we leave behind in Kabul is going to collapse the moment we exit. The politicians are going to blame it on the Afghans and all of those dead people will still be dead. Afghanistan is going to be whatever it's people decide. When we get out, this process will finally sort it's way out. We're going to have very little say in the end. All of our supposed control is an illusion.
If the UK and it's people are such an anathema to them I wonder why we have tens of thousands of Afghans here are immigrants, legal and illegal as well as thousands waiting in the EU to smuggle themselves over here?
Maybe because we're over there bombing the **** out of them.
I listened to Naomi Wolfe speak the other day. She shared a story about how she keeps in touch with friends in Afghanistan and Pakistan with social media. They regularly beg her to do whatever she can to stop the drone attacks, stop the bombs, and stop the war because it's so dangerous and it's so hard to have any kind of life at all. That's amazing power of the internet because now we can actually connect with people on the other end of our foreign policy.
The bottom line is that if you lived there, you'd want to move somewhere that was more peaceful as well. Our presence is what is making it not peaceful.
When you say you would have terrorists over anything else you really don't know what you are talking about, you clearly have no idea what it's like to be in a community where the terrorists run free, there is no safety for your children, there is no security,no freedom, you are forced to hand money over to them, you will be forced to hand your children over. No, you saying such a thing reeks of the worse kind of naivety going.
We don't need video cameras watching us every where we go. We don't need to pass through checkpoints and strip searches just to board a plane and soon to go shopping or just go down the highway. We don't need a massive police state to protect us, especially if we're not inciting terrorists all around the world with our foreign policy. We don't need to sacrifice our civil liberties for safety.
Also, I think you are projecting some other situation or experience on what is happening now. It's good bet that if we got the rest of the story behind your experience, we'd find some significant differences.
You think you are the only one who knows the 'truth', the only one who 'understands', well the opposite is actually the truth you show a huge amount of naivete and lack of understanding how the world works. You know nothing of Iraq and nothing of Afghanistan and I venture to suggest you don't actually know much about your fellow Americans if you think they are all so stupid they believe every word that your governments say.
There's no argument here, only a silly rant. This set of statements is complete nonsense. Let me point out an obvious contradiction. If we can't believe every word about what the government says and you work for the government, we can't trust what you have to say about Iraq and Afghanistan. You've been parroting out propaganda this entire thread. Out of one side of the mouth you say that you don't support the war and out of the other you justify it. That is what propaganda does. It helps you rationalize your inconsistencies. It helps you
doublethink.
Blaming the military for the wars etc is incorrect, the military serve your country, The governments can be blamed because they send the troops out but if the military were to refuse you would be in big trouble because then you will have a military dictatorship. No, support your troops and look to the politicians if blame is needed. Don't rant at us, rant at them, go out to Afghan and see for yourself before you decide the rest of us is evil.
More nonsense and propaganda. You are the government. You joined it. You are responsible for it's actions.
Afghanistan was a hellhole before we invaded, living hell for a good many people, this doesn't make invading there right but it does show that the country wasn't a shining example of peace and tranquility. Al Qaeda, the Taliban, drug warlords all operated out of there bringing misery to hundred of thousands worldwide. When you look at the war there you can't just take the view that they are totally innocent and we corrupted them, we invaded when we shouldn't, can't do anything about that now but what we can do is hopefully leave the place a bit better than we found it. Hopefully the drugs that came out of there will have been cut down by some and hopefully women might stand a chance of a better life , not perfect not ideal but a darn sight better than some have done by whinging on a martial arts forum.
More propaganda and it's all based on revisionist history. Every single statement in this paragraph is cut off from the context of history. Just leave those people alone. You have no right to take a gun and force them to live the way you want them to live. In the end, you're going to fail because that kind of control is always an illusion. Its the kind of magical thinking that government regularly engage in.
