The war in Iraq

[Tez3]

The emotive moral outrage over the war is justified, Tez3. We've got people who are dying needlessly, we've got future generations that are being taxed for something that will not provide them any benefit, and we have a stubborn refusal by a massive amount of people to face the facts on the ground that are actually being reported by servicemen and women. See the link I provided earlier.

I see the whole idea that "we need to stay in order to fix the mess we made and/or make life better for afghans" as just another Fascist slogan. The idea that we can use force to make one group of people somewhere live according to how another group of people choose is fascist. How many regimes have tried this? How many have failed?

The ultimate irony, Tez3, is that you are actually supporting fascism with your posts. From other posts, I can see that you are normally vehemently against it, but in this case, you're inconsistent. This is a blind spot to consider in the future...

Oh really? I don't know how you work that out. You are not a lone messiah crying in the wilderness and I'm not a fascist just a realist. If you have been out to Afghan and actually talked to the Afghans in person I will start taking what you say seriously, until then you are ascribing meaning to things people are writing that they don't mean. I've been there for myself, I know what the women as well as many of the men want out there even if you don't. You have a very skewed idea of what is being done out there as well as a skewed idea of what they country is like, I can tell you it's nothing like you seem to think.

 

[Makalakumu]

What makes you think you have the right to take a gun and force someone to live they way that you want to live? What would the people look like without constant foreign intervention?

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[Makalakumu]

Oh really? I don't know how you work that out. You are not a lone messiah crying in the wilderness and I'm not a fascist just a realist. If you have been out to Afghan and actually talked to the Afghans in person I will start taking what you say seriously, until then you are ascribing meaning to things people are writing that they don't mean. I've been there for myself, I know what the women as well as many of the men want out there even if you don't. You have a very skewed idea of what is being done out there as well as a skewed idea of what they country is like, I can tell you it's nothing like you seem to think.

You've aligned yourself with fascist policies. I don't think you are a fascist.

Consequentially...

http://lionsofliberty.blogspot.com/2012/02/lt-colonel-speaks-out-on-unwinnable.html

"In August, I went on a dismounted patrol with troops in the Panjwai district of Kandahar province. Several troops from the unit had recently been killed in action, one of whom was a very popular and experienced soldier. One of the unit’s senior officers rhetorically asked me, “How do I look these men in the eye and ask them to go out day after day on these missions? What’s harder: How do I look [my soldier’s] wife in the eye when I get back and tell her that her husband died for something meaningful? How do I do that?”

This is the price that our servicemen and women always pay for fascism.

 

[Tez3]

Hi Josh and Tez, with regard to Saddam's character, I agree that he was a bad murderous bastard, and i for one will not miss him. But that being said i think that spending Billions or Trillions is it, to attack bomb and rape a country (don't be offended my my precise use of language, but look it up if you don't believe me), is like using a rocket launcher to swat a fly. Not necessary and overkill. What's more it sets a bad example to our children, to know that the only way their elder's, parents and grandparents, know to deal with a foreign threat is with threats of violence and culminating in ultimate force, or whatever phraseology it is the army chooses to call its mission that day. Fact is we have affectively attacked and effectively dismantled not just the emotional dignity and well being of these countries, but also their history and dignity as well. It is all very well claiming the moral high ground with hindsight, but in the face of the slaughter which side of the pond were you gunning for? I know I was with the Iraqis all the way!

Too simplistic, it's not a case of taking sides, were you on the Iraqi's side when they invaded Kuwait, killed and tortured the Kuwati's or were you with the Kuwaitis when they killed and tortured the Palestinians who supported the Iraqis, were you on the Iranian's side when they fought the Iraqis or the Iraqi side? Which Iraqi's were you supporting, which tribe? the Marsh Arabs who were being wiped out by Saddam's tribe ( it wasn't his actions alone) or the tribes that were against Saddam and supported the Allies? Which side in Iraq so you support now?

People need to disabuse themselves of the idea too that Afghanistan was some sort of democratic country that the Allies invaded and turned into some sort of warzone. Afghanistan is a medieval country which is being dragged into the 21st century, somewhat unwillingly. there are many tribes each with it's tribal leaders who are the law among their people. Putting aside for a moment the legalities and morals of the Allies invading, have a good look at what Afghanistan is. there's no such thing as an Afghan, the country is a collection of tribes. The tribal leaders were often at war with each other, have been for centuries. Woman are treated as lower than goats, worth only anything as breeding stock for sons not useless daughters. You can look up for yourself the restrictions women are still under. The Taliban ruled only because they had the guns, as one tribal leader said at a shuria, whoever has the guns is in charge. Fear was and still is the overwhelming emotion in Afghanistan, not fear of the Allies but fear of the Taliban and the warlords. The history of Aghanistan is one of violence and fear, there's no dignity in being afraid all the time. This is not a defence of the Allies invasion but hopefully will make you look up the history of Afghanistan before you again state they were all sweetness and light until the Allies invaded. The country had no well being and certainly no country that treats it women the way Afghan does has any emotional dignity, dream on sunshine. Iraq was and is no better, the record of human rights in that country is appalling so don't tell me there's dignity there. The Allies might be wrong but dear me, Iraq is not a place for the weak. Life's not as simple as one side is all shiny and nice the other side are all baddies. You have to look at it all in perspective not through rose tinted glasses, you aren't Lawrence of Arabia.

Now, the invasion of the country was wrong but there's little we can do about that, so what can't be undone has to be put right. A surgeon doesn't leave a patient on the operating table cut open and walk away just because they can't find anything wrong with the patient. The patient has to be sewn up,brought round and cared for.



As for this emotive language of what we teach our children. don't you think they learn more about violence from computer games, television programmes and the general behaviour of adults around them than they ever do from what a government does? A country that has the state kill people because they killed and it's supposed to show that killing is wrong can hardly teach it's children more about violence can it? Look at the programmes that are on television and in the cinema, things like the 'Saw' series, the zombies etc etc. the games that are available..'Assassin's Creed, all the war and killing games.


You can live in your dream worlds where there are countries that are pristine democracies who are invaded by the evil empires or can you wake up and start looking at the reality, that nothing is black and white, no one side is all good or all bad, that sometimes countries make mistakes and sometimes they do try to rectify them, sometimes bad things happen but good people will try to help, that sometimes the bad people have bad things happen to them, sometimes good people have bad things happen, the fact is that nothing is simple. The situations in Iraq and Afghan are horrendously complicated, nothing is what it seems and sitting at your computers pontificating does nothing to help anyone. I believe the American expression is 'wake up and smell the coffee'.

 

[granfire]

Re: Afghanistan
Tez has more insight, by far, however just to point somethings out, the country has been at war for over 30 years now. That means probably most people there have never known 'peace' as we do.

And let's not forget 'the allies' were all to happy to swoop in ans support the very same people they are fighting now, back in the 1980s when the evil Soviet empire was busy there (probably also a reason why you really can't get the dang country and it's sister nation China to agree with anything the US or their friends suggest).

Yes, the Soviet backed president was not loved by the warlords. It seems puppets to foreign interests seldom are.
however, for a brief moment the country was actually eyeballing the 20th century as in allowing women to pursuit interests of their own.

 

[Tez3]

You've aligned yourself with fascist policies. I don't think you are a fascist.

Consequentially...

http://lionsofliberty.blogspot.com/2012/02/lt-colonel-speaks-out-on-unwinnable.html

"In August, I went on a dismounted patrol with troops in the Panjwai district of Kandahar province. Several troops from the unit had recently been killed in action, one of whom was a very popular and experienced soldier. One of the unit’s senior officers rhetorically asked me, “How do I look these men in the eye and ask them to go out day after day on these missions? What’s harder: How do I look [my soldier’s] wife in the eye when I get back and tell her that her husband died for something meaningful? How do I do that?”

This is the price that our servicemen and women always pay for fascism.

That is one man's opinion, he's entitled to it but it doesn't make it true does it? If he feels like that he needs to resign his commission. His opinion isn't that of the majority of the military, just because you agree with it doesn't make it correct either. it's an opinion not a fact. When you come up with your opinion based on your having been in Afghan and having spoken to the Afghan tribes people then it will carry more weight, if then if it's the same as this chaps then fair play to you but until then....

I don't know what the American army does but for a long time now since the Malayan Insurgency the British military has always employed the Hearts and Minds policy first.
Other views of what it's like out there.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/tv/2011/06/our-war-afghanistan.shtml

http://blogs.wsj.com/speakeasy/2010...ier-and-author-offers-a-view-from-the-ground/
http://lydall.standard.co.uk/2010/11/shooting-on-the-front-line-one-soldiers-war-in-afghanistan.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...enges-of-training-Afghan-National-Police.html



No one is forcing Afghans to live how we want them to...don't you think the fact they treat their women like dirt proves that? when medical aid is offered to them by the Allies do we make them treat their children fisrt as we would here? No the men are treated first then the women and children, we respect, reluctantly in this cases the way they live even if it goes against everything we believe in like childrens lives being pricelss not worthless. Again you are jumping to conclusions. The Afghans live the way they want to or are forced to by forces other than the Allies.

 

[Tez3]

Re: Afghanistan
Tez has more insight, by far, however just to point somethings out, the country has been at war for over 30 years now. That means probably most people there have never known 'peace' as we do.

And let's not forget 'the allies' were all to happy to swoop in ans support the very same people they are fighting now, back in the 1980s when the evil Soviet empire was busy there (probably also a reason why you really can't get the dang country and it's sister nation China to agree with anything the US or their friends suggest).

Yes, the Soviet backed president was not loved by the warlords. It seems puppets to foreign interests seldom are.
however, for a brief moment the country was actually eyeballing the 20th century as in allowing women to pursuit interests of their own.

Thank you, the country however has always been at war, the tribes were fighting each other long before even the first British war with them. As someone said here recently, that's why they are such good fighters, they've been doing it for centuries.

 

[Makalakumu]

You can't solve the problems of intervention with more intervention. As more and more countries become more and more cash strapped, this conclusion will become abudantly clear. This argument will ultimately be settled by economics, not guns.

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[Tez3]

You can't solve the problems of intervention with more intervention. As more and more countries become more and more cash strapped, this conclusion will become abudantly clear. This argument will ultimately be settled by economics, not guns.

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and did anyone say it was right to intervene militarily? Not I, and trying to sort it economically is exactly what the British..I can't speak for the other Allies..are trying to do. Contracts for new building etc are put out for Afghan contractors, we don't employ contractors from here we use local, we are training the Afghan army and the police to take over.
http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/D...AfghanPoliceUncoverTalibanWeaponsAndDrugs.htm

http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/D...tions/AfghanSoldiersTakeOverNewPatrolBase.htm

http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/F...istanChronologyOfEventsJanuary2009May2010.htm

http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/D.../SappersHelpBuildABrighterFutureInHelmand.htm

http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/DefenceNews/PeopleInDefence/ACiviliansAfghanExperience.htm

 

[Makalakumu]

and did anyone say it was right to intervene militarily? Not I, and trying to sort it economically is exactly what the British..I can't speak for the other Allies..are trying to do. Contracts for new building etc are put out for Afghan contractors, we don't employ contractors from here we use local, we are training the Afghan army and the police to take over.
http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/D...AfghanPoliceUncoverTalibanWeaponsAndDrugs.htm

http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/D...tions/AfghanSoldiersTakeOverNewPatrolBase.htm

http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/F...istanChronologyOfEventsJanuary2009May2010.htm

http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/D.../SappersHelpBuildABrighterFutureInHelmand.htm

http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/DefenceNews/PeopleInDefence/ACiviliansAfghanExperience.htm

We shall see how it turns out for you guys economically.

In the US, we're currently deciding to destroy our own currency and tax future generations to pay for all of this. Both of these are hidden taxes that will ultimately drag down our standard of living. I don't believe that it will be worth it in the end...and I think that our intervention now will spawn multitudes of problems for us and for people who live in the region. There will be no happy ending here and hopefully we can avoid getting drawn in again and again like you guys. Sheesh!

This is why I support Ron Paul's foreign policy. Sometimes you have to look at the costs and the benefits of a situation and you need to make hard decisions. Getting out of these wars ASAP makes the most economic sense for our country. We don't have to saddle the future with crushing debt and we don't have to destroy our currency now. We could just focus on our needs as a country...but that's going to mean letting go of the idea that we can be successful here and that it's worth it.

 

[billc]

Yes, and the terrorists training in Afghanistan before we invaded just left us alone. Remember that little thing called 9/11, I know it is easy to forget, it was a whole bunch a time ago. Yes, how many more times can we let them train unmolested, come over here and kill our people? And of course we forget our embassies in Africa, the Kobar towers, the U.S.S. Cole, our ambassadors in Africa, the first time they tried to knock down the World Trade Center, and all the other little things they did and that we kept ignoring and ignoring and explaining away...until they finally managed to kill 3,000 of our citizens. Yes, let's just retreat behind our borders and I'm sure they will leave us alone.

Do you intend to stop Hollywood from exporting our culture overseas. The radical, muslim terrorists hate that as well. To keep us safe will you say Hollywood can't export movies or television. How about American business. The terrorists hate that as well. Do we forbid American businesses from going overseas?

 

[Makalakumu]

Yes, and the terrorists training in Afghanistan before we invaded just left us alone. Remember that little thing called 9/11, I know it is easy to forget, it was a whole bunch a time ago. Yes, how many more times can we let them train unmolested, come over here and kill our people?

I'll take the terrorists over the loss of my liberty, dollar devaluation, and lowered standard of living for my children. All we ever needed to protect us is the 2nd amendment.

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[ballen0351]

I'll take the terrorists over the loss of my liberty, dollar devaluation, and lowered standard of living for my children. All we ever needed to protect us is the 2nd amendment.

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So in your opinion has there ever be a justified time we have gone to war?

 

[Makalakumu]

So in your opinion has there ever be a justified time we have gone to war?

Very few wars are justifiably fought as self defense. Most of them in our history were fought to expand our power and influence. Most of them were sold to the public with various levels of propaganda.

Listen to Major General Smedley Butler on this matter.

I'll second his opinion.

 

[Tez3]

Very few wars are justifiably fought as self defense. Most of them in our history were fought to expand our power and influence. Most of them were sold to the public with various levels of propaganda.

Listen to Major General Smedley Butler on this matter.

I'll second his opinion.

It's fine you sitting there pontificating and lecturing to us. I find it extremely odd too that John with his self confessed criminal record of violence also chooses to lecture us on war etc.
The people in Afghan, well the men at any rate have probably got more say so in the running of their country than we have in ours, there are weekly shurias with the village elders, the triable elders and others where they get there say, what they want to happen, they discuss what's happening and what they want to happen, permission is sought from them for various things and they are being led to take more and more responsibilty for their country all the time, we are gearing up to leave and we are trying to make sure that when we do we leave a structure behind that will survive. If the UK and it's people are such an anathema to them I wonder why we have tens of thousands of Afghans here are immigrants, legal and illeagal as well as thousands waiting in the EU to smuggle themselves over here?

When you say you would have terrorists over anything else you really don't know what you are talking about, you clearly have no idea what it's like to be in a community where the terrorists run free, there is no safety for your children, there is no security,no freedom, you are forced to hand money over to them, you will be forced to hand your children over. No, you saying such a thing reeks of the worse kind of naivety going.

You think you are the only one who knows the 'truth', the only one who 'understands', well the opposite is actually the truth you show a huge amount of naivete and lack of understanding how the world works. You know nothing of Iraq and nothing of Afghanistan and I venture to suggest you don't actually know much about your fellow Americans if you think they are all so stupid they believe every word that your governments say.

Blaming the military for the wars etc is incorrect, the military serve your country, The governments can be blamed because they send the troops out but if the military were to refuse you would be in big trouble because then you will have a military dictatorship. No, support your troops and look to the politicians if blame is needed. Don't rant at us, rant at them, go out to Afghan and see for yourself before you decide the rest of us is evil.

Afghanistan was ahellhole before we invaded, living hell for a good many people, this doesn't make invading there right but it does show that the country wasn't a shining example of peace and tranquillity. Al Queda, the Taliban, drug warlords all operated out of there bringing misery to hundred of thousands worldwide. When you look at the war there you can't just take the view that they are totally innocent and we corrupted them, we invaded when we shouldn't, can't do anything about hat now but what we can do is hopefully leave the place a bit better than we found it. Hopefully the drugs that came out of there will have been cut down by some and hopefully women might stand a chance of a better life , not perfect not ideal but a darn sight better than some have done by whinging on a martial arts forum.

 

[Makalakumu]

It's fine you sitting there pontificating and lecturing to us. I find it extremely odd too that John with his self confessed criminal record of violence also chooses to lecture us on war etc.
The people in Afghan, well the men at any rate have probably got more say so in the running of their country than we have in ours, there are weekly shurias with the village elders, the triable elders and others where they get there say, what they want to happen, they discuss what's happening and what they want to happen, permission is sought from them for various things and they are being led to take more and more responsibilty for their country all the time, we are gearing up to leave and we are trying to make sure that when we do we leave a structure behind that will survive. If the UK and it's people are such an anathema to them I wonder why we have tens of thousands of Afghans here are immigrants, legal and illeagal as well as thousands waiting in the EU to smuggle themselves over here?

When you say you would have terrorists over anything else you really don't know what you are talking about, you clearly have no idea what it's like to be in a community where the terrorists run free, there is no safety for your children, there is no security,no freedom, you are forced to hand money over to them, you will be forced to hand your children over. No, you saying such a thing reeks of the worse kind of naivety going.

You think you are the only one who knows the 'truth', the only one who 'understands', well the opposite is actually the truth you show a huge amount of naivete and lack of understanding how the world works. You know nothing of Iraq and nothing of Afghanistan and I venture to suggest you don't actually know much about your fellow Americans if you think they are all so stupid they believe every word that your governments say.

Blaming the military for the wars etc is incorrect, the military serve your country, The governments can be blamed because they send the troops out but if the military were to refuse you would be in big trouble because then you will have a military dictatorship. No, support your troops and look to the politicians if blame is needed. Don't rant at us, rant at them, go out to Afghan and see for yourself before you decide the rest of us is evil.

Afghanistan was ahellhole before we invaded, living hell for a good many people, this doesn't make invading there right but it does show that the country wasn't a shining example of peace and tranquillity. Al Queda, the Taliban, drug warlords all operated out of there bringing misery to hundred of thousands worldwide. When you look at the war there you can't just take the view that they are totally innocent and we corrupted them, we invaded when we shouldn't, can't do anything about hat now but what we can do is hopefully leave the place a bit better than we found it. Hopefully the drugs that came out of there will have been cut down by some and hopefully women might stand a chance of a better life , not perfect not ideal but a darn sight better than some have done by whinging on a martial arts forum.

:BSmeter:

 

[Sukerkin]

Come along now, ladies and gentlemen. That is hardly the sign of a discourse that is going to be productive.

It is in the Study so I'm not going to scale things up to a report but let's not allow things to get any worse.

Mark A. Beardmore
MT Mentor

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Totally agree Sukerkin!


Unfortunately I think we all know what will happen in Afghanistan when we pull out. You only need to look at the history of this area to realize that any steps forward will probably then go backward.

Even if you dislike someones opinion let's all be civil!

 

[Makalakumu]

Has any foreign power ever conquered Afghanistan? Is it really worth all of the deaths? Is it worth all of the debt? Is it worth giving away all of our liberties? Is there any reason to expect terrorism if we're not violently interfering all around the world? I don't think so and that's why I'm politically against it. That's probably all that needs to be said. Vote Ron Paul to stop this madness.

 

[Josh Oakley]

Uh... We're not trying to conquer Afghanistan and we never were.

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