The war in Iraq
- Thread starter john2054
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The American military authorites are investigating and we will know soon enough what and why this thing happened. There's been reports that the soldier concerned have a head injury and has family problems but it's all conjecture at this point. The American authorities have little to gain btw by covering up what happened, I add that before people start jumping on the conspiracy theories, they will know their best bet is a frank and honest disclosure of the facts though these may not be released until after any court martial as they may prejudice the fairness of it. They will be open because they own it to their own guys as well as the Afghans.
Sometimes **** happens, there's no rhyme or reason for it, it just does. We like things these days for things to be logical, explainable, if they aren't people say it's a conspiracy, governments cover things up but often it's just things that happen without explanation. Something went off in this mans head, we may never know what it was or what he was thinking. Sometimes, things that happen aren't anyone's fault as in the 'military', or soldiers in general, this one guy went ape, you can't always see things coming, you can't always prevent them, you just have to live with it and try to do the best you can. He may have gone this way anyway, going on the rampage in his home town, he may not, it may have been because he was in Afghan, it may not. Does he deserve the death penalty? He may but I don't believe taking the life of someone is how you punish someone for taking life, you are saying it's wrong to kill but I'm going to kill you. Far better he atones for his actions for the rest of his life.
My thoughts are with the families of those killed and with the soldiers family because whatever he's done will affect all of them now, forever.
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john2054
Green Belt
Yes Tez, my thoughts go with the bereaved families as well. But I have to point out, again, that the families of those killed seem to think that it was more than one killer. So without waiting for the officials to cover up their tracks, and create an oh so convincing sob story for the accused soldier, why don't we listen to them (the families) for a change. I am sure that if this slaughter had happened in America, or anywhere in the West for that matter, the families would be listened to instead of swept under the carpet by the occupiers of an unnamed and totally illegal occupation. Just as in Iraq. And things like this happened over there do I have to remind you?!
Bollocks, if you watch the news you will know there's no cover up and the families are being heard, I saw some of them on Sky news this morning. No one has made up any sob story for the accused soldier, in fact he's in solitary confinement waiting to go before a judge or the equivilant tomorrow. Please don't make things up to suit your viewpoint, it makes it very weak.
What never ceases to amaze me is when those seeking to rabble-rouse and stir the pot of trouble are successful in their aims despite a complete lack of justification for what they say.
Like, for example, those supposed family members claiming there was more than one loony soldier murdering their families. It's impossible to prove otherwise, true. But what on earth would the Coalition forces have to gain by doing such a thing?
It is guaranteed​ to have the very consequences we are seeing playing out now - i.e. utterly destructive to the mission (such as it is). Whilst those that politically lead us and our militaries are certainly not pure as the driven snow, they are not stupid enough to order, condone or cover up such an action (well, maybe the latter but the cats well out of the bag now).
Like, for example, those supposed family members claiming there was more than one loony soldier murdering their families. It's impossible to prove otherwise, true. But what on earth would the Coalition forces have to gain by doing such a thing?
It is guaranteed​ to have the very consequences we are seeing playing out now - i.e. utterly destructive to the mission (such as it is). Whilst those that politically lead us and our militaries are certainly not pure as the driven snow, they are not stupid enough to order, condone or cover up such an action (well, maybe the latter but the cats well out of the bag now).
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john2054
Green Belt
Try and keep things civil Tez. I think that if Sky news has showed footage of the families reaction well good on them. I wasn't aware of this, but then I don't watch that much tv anyway. As to the point surekin made, well if you are calling me a rabble rouser you are entitled to you opinion. However if is my opinion that Iraq is a hundred times worse since before we invaded, and Afghanistan is getting that way. I am glad that they have kept the perpetrator in solitary confinement. He doesn't deserve to live, and that's going by the Afghani and U.S. laws. Not British laws. Tez, as I am sure you are aware of they do things differently over there. When you mingle with the soldiers it is clear that some of their camaraderie rubs off on you. But they are trained killers, following orders and consequently without control of their own destiny.
John, you live in a world of your own making to be honest, whether you believe me or not, and I suspect not as you actually called me liar when you said 'IF' Sky showed the families, son, they did... the fact is I know soldiers, the military and military far better than you do. I don't 'rub shoulders with soldiers' so nothing rubs off on me. I have a deep and strong knowledge of the military here including all the faults, foibles and shortcomings. If they behave badly or illegally I'm there, that's my job. You have been listening to too many people with ulterior motives, not everyone who says they want peace actually wants a peace where all are equal. For example we are currently looking into cases where people have been emailing the families of soldiers killed saying they deserve to die, they are child killers etc, the sort of sentiments you were expressing earlier in this thread actually.
Your melodramatic last line shows how little you know of the morality of soldiers, the ethos they follow and in fact how little you know of the human condition. The fact that you can express you opinion freely in this country, that you can call the soldiers killers etc is down to the fact that the army you are disparaging and sneering at is the reason you can do so. The Armed Forces of this country and of our Allies America fought and died to allow you the freedoms you have today, just a thought you might like to ponder.
All right minded people are against war, no one in their right mind wants death and destruction. You aren't the prophet crying alone in the wilderness, others are out there actually doing soemthing to stop the death and destruction.
As for the soldier who is alleged to committed the killings, remember too that condemning someone and saying they deserve to die before they have had a proper trial is actually ato act as badly as any insurgent or war monger. To be civilised, to be fair, to be the people we think we are we make sure people have a fair trial, to call for his death without that trial and to condemn him without hearing the evidence is to make you as bad as he's alleged to be. Taking a moral stand means you have to do that across the board not just when it suits you, you can't call the soldiers killers then call for the death of a man without a fair trial. It's the mark of decent people that we can do that even for someone who has allegedly done something as bad as that. We don't take the law into our own hands and just kill people we think we should, we have to obey the law, if we don't then we aren't any better than our enemies.
Your melodramatic last line shows how little you know of the morality of soldiers, the ethos they follow and in fact how little you know of the human condition. The fact that you can express you opinion freely in this country, that you can call the soldiers killers etc is down to the fact that the army you are disparaging and sneering at is the reason you can do so. The Armed Forces of this country and of our Allies America fought and died to allow you the freedoms you have today, just a thought you might like to ponder.
All right minded people are against war, no one in their right mind wants death and destruction. You aren't the prophet crying alone in the wilderness, others are out there actually doing soemthing to stop the death and destruction.
As for the soldier who is alleged to committed the killings, remember too that condemning someone and saying they deserve to die before they have had a proper trial is actually ato act as badly as any insurgent or war monger. To be civilised, to be fair, to be the people we think we are we make sure people have a fair trial, to call for his death without that trial and to condemn him without hearing the evidence is to make you as bad as he's alleged to be. Taking a moral stand means you have to do that across the board not just when it suits you, you can't call the soldiers killers then call for the death of a man without a fair trial. It's the mark of decent people that we can do that even for someone who has allegedly done something as bad as that. We don't take the law into our own hands and just kill people we think we should, we have to obey the law, if we don't then we aren't any better than our enemies.
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john2054
Green Belt
Good points Tez. I think I have spent too many years at school just downright unpopular, then too many years after I hit my head in a RTA hitting my mum and being unhappy, and then too many years after I was kicked out of my mum's house, then too many years in hospital, too be able to see these things clearly. I don't have a grudge against the military, but I have known one in the past who upset me. The SAS man I told you about, and I am not even supposed to be talking about. So yeah I guess you are right. But you are not a better person than me. A better fighter, most surely, but a better person, individual with a soul? Listen love I have been striving very hard for all of these years. It finally seems like we are beginning to get somewhere with progress on my wife's visa. I don't know if you are aware of the Buddhist concept of Karma, but I am. And as a Buddhist I fully reconcile to it. But this is in parallel to my later, but no less worthy Christian faith.
I understand that the worthy men and women in the army do a good job. Perhaps I was taking a preemptive stance in moving to the attack position. And I will remind you that at school I was the least popular person there, a complete loner. So isn't it ironic that now as an adult I am posing to get back in there and teach those little blighters a thing or two (about Sociology)! HA. Oh well, that's assuming that I can pass the CRB check, which if it's an enhanced one I think I may fail. In which case I'll have to look for another job. But i don't particularly want anything less then a teachers wage if you get my drift. Especially seeing as all of these years (and pounds) I will have spent in this culmination of my education (at university). I think you told me earlier that you were studying for a degree also. How is it going? And how is your training going? I'm all ears, really I am.
I understand that the worthy men and women in the army do a good job. Perhaps I was taking a preemptive stance in moving to the attack position. And I will remind you that at school I was the least popular person there, a complete loner. So isn't it ironic that now as an adult I am posing to get back in there and teach those little blighters a thing or two (about Sociology)! HA. Oh well, that's assuming that I can pass the CRB check, which if it's an enhanced one I think I may fail. In which case I'll have to look for another job. But i don't particularly want anything less then a teachers wage if you get my drift. Especially seeing as all of these years (and pounds) I will have spent in this culmination of my education (at university). I think you told me earlier that you were studying for a degree also. How is it going? And how is your training going? I'm all ears, really I am.
