The value of failure in belt testing.

[dvcochran]

Says the BB who sat in, and says one of the yellow belts. And says me. I can point out at least 1 error, while sitting here. Forever burned into my head. extremely glaring.

So what will you do with this information? Let is burn you a while of get with the white belt and do something constructive with it. Sounds like they can reciprocate by helping you brush up on the pattern.

 

[TSDTexan]

Did I read the wives number correct? Do you live in Utah?
Someone with experience can certainly identify issues with single movements in a form but not necessarily know the form. There are exceptions when a move is intentionally done differently. However, it would feel egregious to me to forget our Kicho forms. Just should never happen for someone above white belt. The lesson learned is in that moment you better be able to walk the walk before talking the talk. Were you offended that you were asked to perform the lower belt test? I would be mad at myself but not offended that I was asked to do them.

current wife.... and ex-wife.

no offense was ever felt by me. just completely surprised. In retrospect, i should have seen it coming.

I am conflicted. Even if I had tried to show the correct form, for Pinan Nidan I couldn't have guaranteed, that i would have done it flawless. Havent done it in like 3 or so years.

I did it this morning like 40 times. No joke.

 

[Flying Crane]

You wouldn't believe how many forms are in the Doshinkan curriculum. Toyama was a very very busy man. He studied under a great number of teachers in Okinawa. And then even more in Taiwan.

If you count weapons forms, as well, as unarmed forms... He knew about 150. Doshinkan preserved most but not every bit of that.
Then Isao Ichikawa created a fair number of forms.
So... in our tradition... depending on the dojo location/teacher you could see probably as much as 70-90.
A fair number of them haven't been publicly taught at special trainings in decades. So the body of Shihan have most of it. And a handful are still held almost exclusively by HQ.

Given that our Hanshi died recently, I am certain a few died untaught by him.

Yes, we have too many forms.
I have been ok with that up until now.

I have trained in several systems over the years, and I was adding up all the forms I had learned. I believe it was something in the 70-80 range. For a while I was trying to keep up with most of them. It was madness. It was impossible to practice them all with any more regularity than to simply keep them in memory. There was no development going on, the repetition just was not there.

I’m much happier with being more focused.

 

[TSDTexan]

I have trained in several systems over the years, and I was adding up all the forms I had learned. I believe it was something in the 70-80 range. For a while I was trying to keep up with most of them. It was madness. It was impossible to practice them all with any more regularity than to simply keep them in memory. There was no development going on, the repetition just was not there.

I’m much happier with being more focused.

The Doshinkan seems to winnow out people after about a decade. Either you develop the knack for learning it all or you leave out of frustration.

 

[TSDTexan]

So what will you do with this information? Let is burn you a while of get with the white belt and do something constructive with it. Sounds like they can reciprocate by helping you brush up on the pattern.

its driving me to deeper study and improving my methods.

 

[JR 137]

REALLY???????

He’s meaner than I am. I was going to suggest cutting out one of the 2 wives. Or both

I thought you were from Texas? Isn’t multiple wives a Utah thing?

Yeah, I know, people aren’t going to like my sense of humor much.

 

[TSDTexan]

He’s meaner than I am. I was going to suggest cutting out one of the 2 wives. Or both

I thought you were from Texas? Isn’t multiple wives a Utah thing?

Yeah, I know, people aren’t going to like my sense of humor much.

one current, one ex.

 

[TSDTexan]

He’s meaner than I am. I was going to suggest cutting out one of the 2 wives. Or both

I thought you were from Texas? Isn’t multiple wives a Utah thing?

Yeah, I know, people aren’t going to like my sense of humor much.

Yeah... i would like it if they both were to exit my life.
and let me karate-party all the time.

 

[jobo]

no jobo. if it had been fair... the brownbelt wouldn't have promoted, nor myself.

Not defending anyone. I have deficiencies, and i am resolved to fixing them.

I did fail. and for good reason. But if I want to obtain the whole curriculum, I have to get with it.

Yes, it could be very unfair. It could be I am biased.
At either case, complaining doesn't fix it. Fixing my karate, and earning the promotion gets me down the road.

Eventually, I will have my education, and I can discuss my concerns with my teacher.

so your not going to voice your concerns for a number of years and only then raise the issue of blatant unfairness ?

why are you so scared of challenging their authority ? will they excommunicate you, treat you unfairly again as pay back. there seems a massive imbalance of power in your relationship with this cult, sorry club.

from your later posts its seems you are blaming yourself, which is typically what victims tend to do, as it seems easier to accept than the fact they are victims.

I'm not at all sure they have anything to teach you, that has greater value then the self respect you are throwing away, by not challenging them here and now !

 

[JR 137]

one current, one ex.

I figured that. I was just having a little fun with it.

 

[TSDTexan]

so your not going to voice your concerns for a number of years and only then raise the issue of blatant unfairness ?

why are you so scared of challenging their authority ? will they excommunicate you, treat you unfairly again as pay back. there seems a massive imbalance of power in your relationship with this cult, sorry club.

from your later posts its seems you are blaming yourself, which is typically what victims tend to do, as it seems easier to accept than the fact they are victims.

I'm not at all sure they have anything to teach you, that has greater value then the self respect you are throwing away, by not challenging them here and now !

Your advice... really isn't.

what does confronting my instructor do to further my interests? It makes me a problem student.

Was he wrong? Quite possibly. Is it a big enough issue to terminate a relationship with the instructor that is almost five years in the making?

I dont think so. is it a red flag. It might be.
However, it maybe a lapse or error in judgement.
He is a human. I will extend the benefit of doubt towards him.

And i will get my stuff dialed in straight.

The fact is, I should have been ready to demonstrate the form. I didn't. That is good enough to fail me.

If this was at my own school teaching TSD, I would have failed any student for the same reason.

I am not ready to sink a ship, I am taking the pragmatic approach here. I will continue to attend until I get what I came for.

I am not afraid. fear isn't the issue. completing the mission is. The fact remains that this is the first time I have ever seen the instructor do this.

Yes, I have enough to walk away. Which doesn't serve my interests in the long term.

If this becomes a pattern, however, it would require a confrontation. I am okey with that possibility.

 

[jobo]

Your advice... really isn't.

what does confronting my instructor do to further my interests? It makes me a problem student.

Was he wrong? Quite possibly. Is it a big enough issue to terminate a relationship with the instructor that is almost five years in the making?

I dont think so. is it a red flag. It might be.
However, it maybe a lapse or error in judgement.
He is a human. I will extend the benefit of doubt towards him.

And i will get my stuff dialed in straight.

The fact is, I should have been ready to demonstrate the form. I didn't. That is good enough to fail me.

If this was at my own school teaching TSD, I would have failed any student for the same reason.

I am not ready to sink a ship, I am taking the pragmatic approach here. I will continue to attend until I get what I came for.

I am not afraid. fear isn't the issue. completing the mission is.

I didn't say confront him, I said challenge the unfairness. 3xplain the unfairness as you see it and ask for a reasonable explanation of why you and the brown belt were treated differently. adult to adult, not from the childlike place you find yourself in

you've answer the question, you fear being a problem student as there will additional unfairness coming your way. I mean really, you fear being victimised by complaining that you have been treated unfairly. is that really the likely outcome, if so I do think termination is a good outcome

 

[TSDTexan]

I didn't say confront him, I said challenge the unfairness.

you've answer the question, you fear being a problem student as there will additional unfairness coming your way. I mean really, you fear being victimised by complaining that you have been victimised.

Your position and advice are noted. So please, drop it. Your not going to get me to alter my course. Let it go. I dont "fear" the things that you keep trying to mischaracterize as fear.
to be a victim, requires a number of elements.
One of which is harm. Please show me the harm.
like you were a lawyer in a courtroom.

How was I harmed, physically, or mentally?

I wasn't. I was at most... Annoyed. Annoyance is not harm.

Annoyed:
Kinda like how I feel when a stranger keeps pushing a course of action to me over an internet forum.

 

[jobo]

Your position and advice are noted. So please, drop it. Your not going to get me to alter my course. Let it go. I dont "fear" the things that you keep trying to mischaracterize as fear.

clearly not, your scared of repercussions, but I'm not going to stop pointing out how weak you are being, and how unhealthy the relationship to the club is.

you shouldn't ask for opinions, if you only want those that agree with you

 

[TSDTexan]

clearly not, your scared of repercussions, but I'm not going to stop pointing out how weak you are being, and how unhealthy the relationship to the club is.

you shouldn't ask for opinions, if you only want those that agree with you

Actually, please show me where I asked for opinions? I didn't.

I did allow it to become a discussion, but that isnt even the purpose of the thread.

Thank you for your input, its been noted.
Other then beating a dead horse, do you have anything else to say... besides repeating yourself?

 

[jobo]

Actually, please show me where I asked for opinions? I didn't.

I did allow it to become a discussion, but that isnt even the purpose of the thread.

Thank you for your input, its been noted.
Other then beating a dead horse, do you have anything else to say... besides repeating yourself?

you posted in on a DISCUSSION forum, if that's not inviting opinion s I'm not sure what is

yout clearly getting angry at me, as I'm speaking words you know are true and its bringing home how badly you have let yourself be treated. you would be better off focusing your annoyance on the people who have treated you badly, but you cant unless they label you as a problem students.

if it was your kid, who have been failed at say swimming, where they had done a special test criteria just for him and then failed him, wouldn't you go and have a word with the instructor, I would, perhaps you couldn't send your mum, if your scared

 

[jks9199]

Last night we had a kyu exam.

Last night, i failed. big red F.

My Shihan said i was right on the cusp.

I nailed my new forms.

but durring the exam I and another student (brown belt) were asked if a white belt had done a certain white belt form correctly.

The brown belt said yes.
then I was asked. I said no.

I had spotted mistakes.

I was asked to perform that form.
I wasn't prepared to do that form.

It was a form I had not done in a long time.
at this point, i have 20 forms that I am working on. I am struggling on some of them. Some i had polished until they were textbook perfect.
Others had been neglected, as they weren't important enough to me.

Because I didnt step up and demonstrate this whitebelt form I was held back.

Failure will happen. Try not to focus on the mistake or on negative emotions. Focus on the lesson they teach. Dont make excuses for failure.
Dont beat yourself up either.
And never give up.

#failingforward

The reason, it was explained to me, is because this dojo expects sempai to know what they know in order to help the cohai.

I am disappointed in myself. And...
I am slightly peeved the brown belt graded Ichikyu after the test though. I feel that his promotion should have been held back for the exact same reason mine was. I feel that I was singled out.... or that selective enforcement of standards was in play.

nonetheless, I will correct my errors. and let my perception of preferential bias, go.

but this has actually helped me a lot. to focus.

You stated he did the form wrong... but were unable to perform it yourself. Did he really do it wrong? How can YOU prove it if you couldn't show him?

That's why I might have passed the other guy, but failed you.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

 

[Yokozuna514]

current wife.... and ex-wife.

no offense was ever felt by me. just completely surprised. In retrospect, i should have seen it coming.

I am conflicted. Even if I had tried to show the correct form, for Pinan Nidan I couldn't have guaranteed, that i would have done it flawless. Havent done it in like 3 or so years.

I did it this morning like 40 times. No joke.

I've been following your post and still feel like this minor setback is for the best in the long run. Karate training in the most broadest sense belongs to you. If for some reason your Shihan seemed to think failing you at this level will be better for you in the long run it may be because he feels that you have more potential to

Actually, please show me where I asked for opinions? I didn't.

I did allow it to become a discussion, but that isnt even the purpose of the thread.

Thank you for your input, its been noted.
Other then beating a dead horse, do you have anything else to say... besides repeating yourself?

I'm following this thread and still completely agree with you and your outlook. What may look like unfair treatment may very well be a lesson in something else. You have your own students and prefer to have a high standard from what I understand. I don't think it is unreasonable to think that your instructor has higher expectations for you compared to the brown belt. It could be a factor of outlook and hence why comparing yourself to anyone else may not be helpful to your own development. I would explain it this way.......

A set criteria for everyone to pass or fail indicates a minimum required to pass to the next level. Not everyone is the same though. We all have different abilities or disabilities. Should I pass or fail because I am at a point in my life where I cannot do something that someone half my age can do with ease ? Under the bar of 'a set criteria' there is no judgement as to if a student is ready for the next level but that means you are nurturing students to meet a 'minimum standard'. There are instructors that grade their students to a more personal measure or against what they estimate is their personal potential. Grading with this outlook can produce students that will train to demonstrate their personal potential which may be a great deal higher than the average student.

Under 1 method of testing (ie: minimum standard) all belts should be therefore equal but the line will be close to the minimum standard required. Under the other method, all belts will not be equal as a more capable and effective belts will be challenged to what their perceived potential is.

I am not advocating one way over the other I am simply stating that there does not seem to be a universal set criteria to evaluate gradings and that I understand that instructors have their own reasons for making the decisions that they do. If you don't like it, change schools. Ultimately, you need to train in a place that appeals to you and that will satisfy your ideas on how to progress through the ranks. In your particular instance, as annoyed as you may be I think you can understand that there may be more to this decision than the apparent 'fairness' of the outcome.

I see no weakness in the path you chose. Quite the opposite. Osu !

 

[TSDTexan]

You stated he did the form wrong... but were unable to perform it yourself. Did he really do it wrong? How can YOU prove it if you couldn't show him?

That's why I might have passed the other guy, but failed you.

Here are points that I would like to make.


Even if I did not know the form, I know specific fundamentals of this style that are never broken.
Ever.
Not Even Once.

Here are two examples:
1. When chambering before performing an outside block the palm of the hand (inside the fist) always faces a certain direction (down)
2. When doing an upper/rising block the palm (inside the fist) always faces upwards at the chamber.

There are biomechanical reasons for this, and we were lectured (a number of times) and it was shown why this is done this exact way, every time.

There are many other kihon fundamentals. I know quite a few of them. (not to say that I know them all)

If someone is performing a kata (from our system), that I don't know.... Even, if I have never seen it before, I know that if a specific fundamental is broken the form was done incorrectly.

The point is... Shihan could have asked me for specifics, and I could have pointed them out immediately.
Yes, the whitebelt broke the kihon fundamentals. twice.


Point number two.
Kata openings and closings & by the count method.
There is a precise format for kata openings... and a family of a kata shares the exact opening and closing format.

So if a person is doing counts and commands
they would:
announce the kata name:

say: "Rei" ( then bow )
perform the opening movement/gesture

say: "Kamaete" or in some other kata

say: "Yoi". (ready the start position)

announce a number: "Ichi"
perform the movements that go with that count.

announce the next number: "Ni"
perform the movements that go with that count. etc until the final count.

closing salutation or gesture

Announce: No Rei (musubi dachi)

Announce: Rei (bow)

Repeat the Kata name.

Mistakes can be made here.
For example. The Whitebelt Announced Kamaete instead of NoRei at the end, before the bow.

Or failure to announce the kata name at the end. Which also happened.

During the counts... the incorrect sequence of movements for that count can be performed.

While at that instant, during the exam, I counted 6 mistakes. Some minor, some major.

Last point, I know the embusan for this kata.
I know certain things belong at certain places.

Even though I wasn't prepared to perform this kata on the spot, the whitebelt deviated from the embusan.

There were missing techniques. certain ones that happen in direction changes at the embusan.

I have since reviewed and spent a great deal of remedial work on getting this one kata up to snuff.

I deserved to be held back until the next kyu exam.
This has helped me intensify my focus.

 

[TSDTexan]

you posted in on a DISCUSSION forum, if that's not inviting opinion s I'm not sure what is

yout clearly getting angry at me, as I'm speaking words you know are true and its bringing home how badly you have let yourself be treated. you would be better off focusing your annoyance on the people who have treated you badly, but you cant unless they label you as a problem students.

if it was your kid, who have been failed at say swimming, where they had done a special test criteria just for him and then failed him, wouldn't you go and have a word with the instructor, I would, perhaps you couldn't send your mum, if your scared

really?... angry??
nah bro. annoyance doesn't rate anger.
I would suspect that your guessing a fair bit.

thanks for your input. It seems redundant and superfluous. but thanks for sharing your thoughts.

I will pass on taking your advice. Thank you for that as well.

It would have been nice if you answered my question. Its okey that you didn't.

ttfn bro.