The value of failure in belt testing.

[skribs]

Here is the real rub. Shihan never asks trick questions to begin with. Ever.
So the brownbelt should have known something was incorrect. Just by the question alone.

Then Shihan has very clear and easy to read body language. His body language when Brownbelt said it was correct was very clear. And the other Blackbelt who was sitting in on the test showed the same disbelief at the answer.

Shihan again asked him. He asked him twice before calling on me.

Ultimately, i am not in charge. Fair or not... it doesn't matter. If i want to finish obtaining instruction in Okinawan Karate... i will improve my own practice, and let go.

I am not privy to the why. and it doesn't matter. I cannot do much about it anyway.

I am considering switching to Uechi Ryu and commuting 2 hours for class in Portland Oregon.
8 forms altogether.

One of the things that's hard to balance is the deference to the Master, but also the fact that you're a customer.

 

[Headhunter]

Resuming.

WAB25...
one point i want to address... I didnt call anyone out.
I was put on the spot. I was asked directly Is this kata correct?
A. No. it is not correct.
B. Yes. it is correct.

B. would for me be making a statement that i know or believe to be false.
I make it a point to be honest. I value my name and reputation.

I didnt have to perform the kata to address the specifics of the kata... and the whitebelt who performed it.

Yes, some slack can be given, if and when a situation does merit it.

in this tradition, we have 4 whites then yellow then orange. this individual is 4th white. his form was a 2nd white form. I counted 6 errors. some major some minor.

Had i been expecting to demonstrate this form I wouldn't have been working on the ones that I was working on.

The simplest answer is devote more personal time to training the whole of the Doshinkan curriculum that I have been exposed to and have tested on, or in process of learning.

I have been teaching and continuing in TSD this whole time. So I am juggling two large tasks, in addition to a full time job, two wives, and a 6 & 1/2 yo boy.

So i need to cut something out of my schedule, to fit more time for training my Doshinkan kata

In my opinion you can't criticise someone's form but then not be able to perform it yourself that's just hypocritical in my opinion. Like why would I that white belt listen to what you're telling him when you can't even perform it? I'm not trying to offend you but that's my take on it

 

[Headhunter]

Also why did you refuse to do it. Just get out there and do your best. Okay maybe it wasn't good enough to pass on but I'd rather fail after trying my best than fail because I refused to do it

 

[Flying Crane]

8 kata is a good number. 20, with more to come, is kinda crazy.

 

[drop bear]

Yeah. I would have at least given the form a crack.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Last night we had a kyu exam.

Last night, i failed. big red F.

My Shihan said i was right on the cusp.

I nailed my new forms.

but durring the exam I and another student (brown belt) were asked if a white belt had done a certain white belt form correctly.

The brown belt said yes.
then I was asked. I said no.

I had spotted mistakes.

I was asked to perform that form.
I wasn't prepared to do that form.

It was a form I had not done in a long time.
at this point, i have 20 forms that I am working on. I am struggling on some of them. Some i had polished until they were textbook perfect.
Others had been neglected, as they weren't important enough to me.

Because I didnt step up and demonstrate this whitebelt form I was held back.

Failure will happen. Try not to focus on the mistake or on negative emotions. Focus on the lesson they teach. Dont make excuses for failure.
Dont beat yourself up either.
And never give up.

#failingforward

The reason, it was explained to me, is because this dojo expects sempai to know what they know in order to help the cohai.

I am disappointed in myself. And...
I am slightly peeved the brown belt graded Ichikyu after the test though. I feel that his promotion should have been held back for the exact same reason mine was. I feel that I was singled out.... or that selective enforcement of standards was in play.

nonetheless, I will correct my errors. and let my perception of preferential bias, go.

but this has actually helped me a lot. to focus.

I agree with your outlook on this, but I also agree with @jobo that this - from the description provided - seems rather extraordinarily unfair. Why pass the guy who couldn't spot the mistakes, and fail the guy who couldn't do a form that isn't typically part of the test. I could see failing both. I could see failing neither. I'm not sure I can see a great argument to fail either without the other, though there's a stronger argument for failing the guy who couldn't see the errors...unless he was able to do the form correctly, maybe.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

8 kata is a good number. 20, with more to come, is kinda crazy.

Yeah, I'm not sure I see the value in that many kata.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

In my opinion you can't criticise someone's form but then not be able to perform it yourself that's just hypocritical in my opinion. Like why would I that white belt listen to what you're telling him when you can't even perform it? I'm not trying to offend you but that's my take on it

I think the issue here is that he was asked directly. If someone asks me, I'd answer as truthfully as possible, even if I can't replicate the exact form (which is different from being able to recognize what's wrong). I don't see any hypocrisy here, since it's not like he made the same mistakes.

 

[Flying Crane]

Yeah, I'm not sure I see the value in that many kata.

In some ways I suppose it depends on how long each kata is. But stil...

 

[Gerry Seymour]

In some ways I suppose it depends on how long each kata is. But stil...

There is that. Technically, mainline NGA has 50 forms, but each is about 2 moves (an entry, and a technique). You could fit half of them in a single, moderately long form.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I think the issue here is that he was asked directly. If someone asks me, I'd answer as truthfully as possible, even if I can't replicate the exact form (which is different from being able to recognize what's wrong). I don't see any hypocrisy here, since it's not like he made the same mistakes.

I'm revisiting this post, and going stronger. If I see an error and point it out, there's no hypocrisy, even if I can't do any better. UNLESS I say something like, "someone of his rank shouldn't be making that mistake", then I repeat the mistake and am of equivalent or higher rank.

 

[TSDTexan]

8 kata is a good number. 20, with more to come, is kinda crazy.

You wouldn't believe how many forms are in the Doshinkan curriculum. Toyama was a very very busy man. He studied under a great number of teachers in Okinawa. And then even more in Taiwan.

If you count weapons forms, as well, as unarmed forms... He knew about 150. Doshinkan preserved most but not every bit of that.
Then Isao Ichikawa created a fair number of forms.
So... in our tradition... depending on the dojo location/teacher you could see probably as much as 70-90.
A fair number of them haven't been publicly taught at special trainings in decades. So the body of Shihan have most of it. And a handful are still held almost exclusively by HQ.

Given that our Hanshi died recently, I am certain a few died untaught by him.

Yes, we have too many forms.
I have been ok with that up until now.

 

[TSDTexan]

I'm revisiting this post, and going stronger. If I see an error and point it out, there's no hypocrisy, even if I can't do any better. UNLESS I say something like, "someone of his rank shouldn't be making that mistake", then I repeat the mistake and am of equivalent or higher rank.

Within Doshinkan... there even is precedent for this.
After Hanshi Nobuo Ichiwawa had surgery for stomach and intestine cancer.... his health deteriorated. He went from a healthy mountain of a Japanese gentleman to a scrawny scarecrow figure. No disrespect intended at all.

He still showed up and trained. even though he couldn't perform the motions of things... he could describe in great detail what the body was supposed to do.
He addressed errors etc.

However within our dojo... we are expected to "catch" the correct movements by direct observation, and comparison.

The Shihan wants us to demonstrate the correct movement.

Maneru, Wakaru, Yareru

Imitate, Understand, Do
or
Notice/Observe, Consider, Conform.

The question we are supposed to ask ourselves, is what I am seeing... is that what I am doing... if not why?

 

[TSDTexan]

I think the issue here is that he was asked directly. If someone asks me, I'd answer as truthfully as possible, even if I can't replicate the exact form (which is different from being able to recognize what's wrong). I don't see any hypocrisy here, since it's not like he made the same mistakes.

Exactly the point. I was caught out, on the spot.
Its a form I can do, and with about 30 minutes preparation time I could have done it correctly.

My problem is my previous karate training has caused me to learn two other versions of this same form.

It is vital to demonstrate the Doshinkan Pinan Nidan, without showing or allowing any alternate version to bleed through.

It should be letter perfect. The forms I demonstrated were highly polished and letter perfect.

I wish I had known I would be put on the spot. I would have done it right away.

The take away from this... is that I am going to drill all of these until they are dominant in my muscle memory, or I can do them by the count... on the spot.

I dont ever intend to walk into a kyu exam, unprepared to do any Kata that I have learned ever again.

Frankly, I felt extremely embarrassed. I had never in my years of training said "i am not prepared" before.
I wished at that moment that i could have died.

 

[TSDTexan]

So a question that I don’t think was clearly answered: were you or the brown belt correct, when asked if the white belt did his kata correctly? Regardless of your performance of the kata.

Ahh... I hadn't seen this post. I was correct. The Brownbelt didnt see the errors. there were more then a few.

 

[dvcochran]

of course fairness is relevant, if they had been fair you would have past, failing because they treated you differently to another students isn't failing. its discrimination.

your clearly peeved at the unfairness, I picked that up were you said " I am peeved" but then you start to defend them. like your in a cult.if your going to let yourself be treated 7nfairly, people will continue to treat you unfairly. learn to stand up for yourself, for goodness sake

I can never tell if he is trying to be funny. I do think he got off topic on his last post.

 

[dvcochran]

Ahh... I hadn't seen this post. I was correct. The Brownbelt didnt see the errors. there were more then a few.

Says you or those leading the promotion?

 

[TSDTexan]

.

 

[TSDTexan]

Says you or those leading the promotion?

Says the BB who sat in, and says one of the yellow belts. And says me. I can point out at least 1 error, while sitting here. Forever burned into my head. extremely glaring.

 

[dvcochran]

Resuming.

WAB25...
one point i want to address... I didnt call anyone out.
I was put on the spot. I was asked directly Is this kata correct?
A. No. it is not correct.
B. Yes. it is correct.

B. would for me be making a statement that i know or believe to be false.
I make it a point to be honest. I value my name and reputation.

I didnt have to perform the kata to address the specifics of the kata... and the whitebelt who performed it.

Yes, some slack can be given, if and when a situation does merit it.

in this tradition, we have 4 whites then yellow then orange. this individual is 4th white. his form was a 2nd white form. I counted 6 errors. some major some minor.

Had i been expecting to demonstrate this form I wouldn't have been working on the ones that I was working on.

The simplest answer is devote more personal time to training the whole of the Doshinkan curriculum that I have been exposed to and have tested on, or in process of learning.

I have been teaching and continuing in TSD this whole time. So I am juggling two large tasks, in addition to a full time job, two wives, and a 6 & 1/2 yo boy.

So i need to cut something out of my schedule, to fit more time for training my Doshinkan kata

Did I read the wives number correct? Do you live in Utah?
Someone with experience can certainly identify issues with single movements in a form but not necessarily know the form. There are exceptions when a move is intentionally done differently. However, it would feel egregious to me to forget our Kicho forms. Just should never happen for someone above white belt. The lesson learned is in that moment you better be able to walk the walk before talking the talk. Were you offended that you were asked to perform the lower belt test? I would be mad at myself but not offended that I was asked to do them.