The truth on Self-Defense and TaijiQuan / Tai Chi Chuan

[Wing Woo Gar]

This part of the argument doesn't really make sense unless your argument is that tai chi used to be effective and no longer is. In which case there'd be no way for a video, just like there's no way for a video before videos existed.

Arguing against this doesn’t hold much water either, Most people who believe in the water Walker believe he still exists today. Where is the video? @Steve says there must be a video somewhere if it’s real. There is probably a video of stigmata or an exorcism, does that make it real, or not? Hundreds of millions would argue it is. There are videos of David Copperfield making planes vanish… i digress.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

He isn’t even on my radar. I don’t spend any time or energy contemplating whether he existed or whether he did the things attributed to him. I simply don’t think about it. At all. That’s just me.

No, a video of the hook or hook block, because it’s not real otherwise... I’m just joking in any case.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

This part of the argument doesn't really make sense unless your argument is that tai chi used to be effective and no longer is. In which case there'd be no way for a video, just like there's no way for a video before videos existed.

I like this discussion it’s friendly AND informative.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

I just want to thank all of you for this interesting and spirited conversation today. I especially want to thank everyone for being polite to one another.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

He isn’t even on my radar. I don’t spend any time or energy contemplating whether he existed or whether he did the things attributed to him. I simply don’t think about it. At all. That’s just me.

It’s really just an arbitrary example. Maybe not my best choice.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

On the Yang hook, can you elaborate where this is in the form?

- Left and right striking tiger (2.09 - 2.12).
- Twin peaks to the ear (2.18).

And there you go, no video I can see but yet, it exists.

Right jab, left cross, right hook, left hook exist in long fist form 扑按对打. I don't have video for that.

Right hook, right back fist is the most common combo used in the praying mantis system.

Hook punch exist in almost all the praying mantis forms.

At 10.34, 11.48, 13.34-13.49, ...

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

No video anywhere? If it exists, I bet we can find someone, somewhere, demonstrating it somehow. Chances are very high it won't be in a fight. But if it's in a form or something like that, I'm sure we could find it, and then start the inevitable conversation about how it really would work, and the person who did it isn't very good, or it's not the REAL Tibetan White Crane... but if the assertion is that there isn't a video, I don't buy it. Again, 10 years ago? Yeah, I'm with you. In fact, I was almost reflexively with you this morning, until out of curiosity I learned exactly how much video really exists.

Edit: Just want to add that there's a lot of video of Tibetan White Crane kung fu online. Looks fun.

Also, I am interested in learning any Gung fu, if I am able to get some TWC in I would love that.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

- Left and right striking tiger (2.09 - 2.12).
- Twin peaks to the ear (2.18).

Hook punch exist in almost all the praying mantis forms.

At 11.48, 13.34-13.49, ...

Northern praying mantis?

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Northern praying mantis?

Ok, I don’t really call that a hook punch but I see what you mean.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Northern praying mantis?

Yes! 7 star PM, plum flower PM, Taiji PM, and 6 harmony PM.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Yes! 7 star PM, plum flower PM, Taiji PM, and 6 harmony PM.

It’s good to see. I have only a small amount of Tong Long Pai. It looks very different. Thank you.

 

[drop bear]

Well that’s a bridge too far, if we put the kardashians on a naked and afraid for 60 days you would have your baby Bigfoot sighting. Seriously though, are going to say that if there isn’t a decent video, that it isn’t really possible? If I say that I have seen and experienced it, will you just dismiss me as a liar or an incompetent? The world is your oyster, judge me as you will. It would be very difficult for me to defend my position if you only accept a video as proof. A person may see Bruce Lee perform amazing feats on video, a viewer may conflate that with martial skill. We know that isn’t necessarily the case now. My point is that even when a video is present, it doesn’t tell the whole story.

The problem is you can't keep up with the liars and incompetents.

There is an infinite amount of fantasy and only a limited amount of fact. Fantasy is easy. Facts take time and effort. Fantasy fits the narrative. Fact doesn't always.

And with no way to determine fact from fiction. Fiction will always win.

So if you play that game. You will loose.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Ok, I don’t really call that a hook punch but I see what you mean.

Chinese wrestling hook punch is different from the boxing hook punch. Chinese wrestling hook punch and head lock are 2 in 1. After you have used your "forearm" to knock the back of your opponent's head, you then use head lock to take him down. The main target is the back of your opponent's head. The contact point is the inside of the forearm.

 

[Flying Crane]

No, a video of the hook or hook block, because it’s not real otherwise... I’m just joking in any case.

I’m actually not joking.

 

[Flying Crane]

It’s really just an arbitrary example. Maybe not my best choice.

I think it’s an extremely on-target example, actually. Guaranteed to push some buttons for some people, though.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Chinese wrestling hook punch is different from the boxing hook punch. Chinese wrestling hook punch and head lock are 2 in 1. After you have used your "forearm" to knock the back of your opponent's head, you then use head lock to take him down. The main target is the back of your opponent's head. The contact point is the inside of the forearm.

Ah ok, that’s interesting. I wish you were closer, I would train with you and a number of people here. There is a lot of valuable knowledge in this gripey little community.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

The problem is you can't keep up with the liars and incompetents.

There is an infinite amount of fantasy and only a limited amount of fact. Fantasy is easy. Facts take time and effort. Fantasy fits the narrative. Fact doesn't always.

And with no way to determine fact from fiction. Fiction will always win.

So if you play that game. You will loose.

I’m ok with losing, as long as I lost honestly.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Since my previous video showing various throws and sweeps being demonstrated by a Tai Chi school was criticized as not being real Tai Chi, here's some video of Chen Ziqiang executing a very nice foot sweep and hip throw against a much larger opponent in free grappling.

I don't know whether Chen Ziqiang has any skills in the striking department, but I have to say that from my standpoint his clinch and takedown ability looks very solid.

Sure, how would I know it’s Tai Chi? How would anybody?

 

[Flying Crane]

I agree with you that Traditional Martial Arts do not need the endorsement of MMA guys/competitive grapplers. But sometimes an endorsement from somebody in another lane opens eyes to people who have them foolishly shut.

A fair point.

In my opinion the endorsement is kind of back-handed, but I’m not going to go into it any farther because I know that my own baggage makes me hyper-alert to such things. He probably didn’t intend it as such, and simply fails to recognize the impact of what he says. But it isn’t worth making a big side-discussion out of it.

 

[Flying Crane]

Counterpoint, Ramsey isn't addressing an audience of traditional martial artists, saying "you have my approval." He's a professional fighter/coach of professional fighters addressing an audience of people interested in fighting, some of whom are sending him messages asking things like "can Tai Chi actually be used effectively in real fighting." And his answer is "yes it can be, and here are some examples of how." Would you rather he say "no, it can't, because I've never seen a Tai Chi practitioner succeed in professional fighting" or "I can express no opinion on the matter because I haven't spent decades becoming a Tai Chi master myself"?

Also a fair point. My previous reply to Buka is probably appropriate here as well.