Tai Chi as a combat art?

[East Winds]

Streetfighter2006,

As you are based in London, visit one of Dan Docherty's classes and then come back and tell me that Taiji is for wimps!!!!!!!

Very best wishes

 

[charyuop]

I looked up the word Jujitsu on my huge Japanese dictionary and that's what it came out (of course I don't know the Kanji so I might have looked up the wrong Hiragana):
jujitsu (saseru): enrich; complete, perfect; strenghten up; increase (shita): full, complete; enriched.

 

[Nebuchadnezzar]

Hi I am John from the UK and I am 23 years old. I'm not trying to start a flame war but personally think Tai chi is a waste of time. Maybe good for meditation and health but that's it. If you want do soft martial arts try Jujutsu. It is better alot than taichi and its soft. I went to a taichi class one time and there was no martial arts at all going on and lots of old people.

Then you shouldn't be Trolling for one. Do you follow me? :shock:

 

[Xue Sheng]

didn't they teach you the translation for the word jujutsu 30 years ago, or maybe you just forgot and didn't bother to reaquaint before typing your like 10 gazillionth post.

Sorry Pete I didn't realize I was offending you so.

But are you talking about the definition or the spelling.

And if it is the spelling 30 years ago it was spelled Jujitsu. And apparently it still is spelled that way, I had to check. As a matter of fact there are a few excepted spellings from the American point of view jujitsu, jujutsu, jiujitsu, jiujutsu. And technically it is all wrong because it is a Japanese word and I do not have the Kanji right now to post.

And the definition is as far as I know

An art of weaponless self-defense developed in Japan that uses throws, holds, and blows and derives added power from the attacker's own weight and strength.

And if it is the word soft you are taking offense to as you did once before, I didn't even bring it into the conversation, nor was I referring to it as defined by internal and external styles of CMA. I was referring to the fact that it is getting kicked, punched ad thrown to the ground and I sure do not consider that soft.

As for the "10 gazillionth post" I first have no idea what a gazillion means maybe you can tell me what that means. And I have 2,322 posts including this one to be exact and suspect that is not close to a gazillion little alone 10 of them.

Also I have noticed you tend to show up only when you have something negative or argumentative to say. So if it is an argument you are looking for I will not give you one. You want you want room 12A, just along the corridor.

 

[pete]

the only thang here that grinds my gears (not offends mind you) is when those with nothing to say clutter the boards with senseless drivel, half truths, and ongoing banter that neophytes interested in the martial arts may read as fact. colbert calls this wiki-reality.

me, i only show up when i got something to say and time to type it. mom taught me that god gave us 2 ears and only 1 mouth for a reason, but some seem to find the benefit of the electronic world being 2 eyes but 10 fingers.LOL.

finally, not looking for an argument. as in the famous monty python skit, i came here for an argument but that was simply contradiction. no it wasn't.

remember, rust never sleeps.

 

[tshadowchaser]

back to the subject of the forst post in thread please
I have enjoyed reading most of this thread because i always was told that Tai Chi was a combative martial art with softer more flowing movement that had health benifits rathere than being a hard brutal martial art. Having seen and felt th power behind some Tai chi moves I can say it may look soft but it sure can hurt when done fast and with intent

 

[Xue Sheng]

the only thang here that grinds my gears (not offends mind you) is when those with nothing to say clutter the boards with senseless drivel, half truths, and ongoing banter that neophytes interested in the martial arts may read as fact. colbert calls this wiki-reality.

me, i only show up when i got something to say and time to type it. mom taught me that god gave us 2 ears and only 1 mouth for a reason, but some seem to find the benefit of the electronic world being 2 eyes but 10 fingers.LOL.

finally, not looking for an argument. as in the famous monty python skit, i came here for an argument but that was simply contradiction. no it wasn't.

remember, rust never sleeps.

Nice use of insults.

Have a nice day pete.

Sorry all, back to the post.

 

[Jade Tigress]

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[charyuop]

LOL hey Jade this board needs some fixing...it is not fair that I can put on ignore list a Moderator

 

[pete]

LOL hey Jade this board needs some fixing...it is not fair that I can put on ignore list a Moderator

thats there by design LOL, so's ya can't nail 'em for hitting ya wif the anonymous neg-reps~ ttfn.

 

[Rook]

Sorry, I just noticed this,

Jujitsu is soft!? It must have changed a lot from when I trained it 30 years ago then. I have my doubts about you having any real jujitsu experience as well.

And for someone claiming to not want to start a flame war you sure started with a few very inflammatory statements.

Actually, the very name for jujutsu means "soft art" or "gentle art" - this being from the definition of soft as "yielding." Genuine JJ practitioners put a very high premium on yielding, evasion, and utilizing redirection of force. By comparison with Tai Chi I would consider it harder. By comparison with karate or the Japanese kenpo systems, its comparitively soft.

 

[Rook]

Hi I am John from the UK and I am 23 years old. I'm not trying to start a flame war but personally think Tai chi is a waste of time. Maybe good for meditation and health but that's it. If you want do soft martial arts try Jujutsu. It is better alot than taichi and its soft. I went to a taichi class one time and there was no martial arts at all going on and lots of old people.

It should be pointed out that, as several of the posters have mentioned and discussed at length already, that genuine Tai Chi as a martial art is much rarer than the Tai Chi as a means to seperate old folks from their wallets.

 

[SFC JeffJ]

Actually, the very name for jujutsu means "soft art" or "gentle art" - this being from the definition of soft as "yielding." Genuine JJ practitioners put a very high premium on yielding, evasion, and utilizing redirection of force. By comparison with Tai Chi I would consider it harder. By comparison with karate or the Japanese kenpo systems, its comparitively soft.

A better translation of "ju" would be resilient. Least that's what I've heard from native speakers.

Jeff

 

[pete]

as rook says, jujitsu is soft, as compared with hard karate styles.. yet, is external because of its use of segmented power and reliance on muscular force. tai chi is a balance of soft and hard, and while utilizing some similar strategies rook mentioned (yielding, redirection,), it is internal because of (among other things) its use of whole body unity and relaxed 'non-muscular' power.

 

[Drac]

Now I wish I would have purchased that book called "Combat Tai-Chi" that I saw advertized in the pages of BlackBelt Magazine because this thread has peaked my interest....

 

[Xue Sheng]

This side discussion about Jujitsu is nice and all, and I am sorry I brought it into the discussion by way of comment, Also I am willing to admit it was a mistake to use the terminology “soft” (in the case of a Japanese art) in the context in which I used it or to be exact in the case I first read it and in the way I responded to it.

I have explained my reason for the not soft comment in a previous post and I will not explain it no further, if you wish to see it, try reading the posts.

But the topic is combat tai chi.

And on the topic of combat Tai Chi. I know I have said Tai Chi is a martial art, and it is. But something does not sit right with me since seeing the words "Combat" and "Tai Chi" in the same sentence.

Tai Chi is very good at defense, it is very good at fighting if attacked but Tai Chi, by its nature, does not attack. Also throw in the Taoist root and Combat sounds even less correct as something attached to Tai Chi. To me the word Combat means to attack or is synonymous with war. So at least to me the terminology “Combat Tai Chi” does not appear to apply, also at least to me, it seems wrong.

But I am also a proponent of Tai Chi as a martial art not just for health so why the problem with the term “Combat Tai Chi”. It seems to me that to train Tai Chi for Combat you are training it and the applications of it for something it was never meant for. To be efficient in combat you need to be equally good at attack and defense and at least from my experience Tai Chi is not trained to attack.

 

[charyuop]

Dear Xue, about the Tai Chi Chuan as defensive I read a story once. I am sorry because what I am about to tell, I read it a long time ago and I can't seem to find it anymore. Unfortunately I don't recall the names of story and that takes away alot of "flavour" hee hee.

This interview was made to one of Yang's students unfortunately I don't recall which Master Yang, but it was one of the first. The student said that once Master Yang would teach Tai Chi to family and very close friends. He himself was a long way cousing of Master Yang. All the students already came from a Martial Art background and they were very well fit phisically. Master Yang challanged every student to see if they were worth of being taught Tai Chi Chuan (that, he said in the interview, back then was not called Tai Chi, but he didn't mention the original name). The training was held at Master Yang's place and the student said that everytime someone passed in front and peeked inside they would stop till the person was gone. In the interview the student explain how back then it was not abnormal someone stepping inside of your school to challange you in a fight to demonstrate how the other person's style was superior. It happened that a man passed by one day and stopped to look inside Master Yang's place and of course they stopped the training till he was gone. The same man passed by for the following days trying to peek inside with the same result. One day the man finally steps inside Master Yang's place and introducing his style (sorry, I know it will be important for the outcome of the story, but I really don't recall the name of his style) challanges Master Yang. At this point Master Yang has one of his students fight for his school. Since the fight was getting too long Master Yang stopped it and stepped forward to face that man himself. The two faced each other for a very long time, in the end they both bowed and the man walked away not showing up anymore. The student of the interview puzzled asked Master Yang what just happened. Master Yang said that since Tai Chi Chuan and the style of the other man (that I don't recall) have both no attacking moves the challange ended before starting.

Of course I can tell you what I read, but wheather it really happened or how much enriched by the student it was that I can't tell you.

 

[pete]

tai chi is all about balance, offense and defense contained in one, separation within the connections... connections within the separations. terms like 'combat tai chi' don't sound right to you only because of your perceptions, not reality. time to change the paradigm.

think, if you were only reacting defensively to attacks your yin would exceed your yang. now, expand the paradigm, and think in terms of RESPONSE rather than REACT. now you have the potential for a more balanced approach, responding to a CATALYST be it threat or a signal, instead of waiting for an attack to react against. that is too late, too slow.

the trick here is to avoid ANTICIPATING, and that is where partner drills and pushing hands begin and sparring needs to be involved, so that you can use the present tense meditation practices from your Qigongs and form practice and apply in fighting, altercation, combat whatever you want to call it.

develop the physical and psychic sensitivites to the point where you can dispatch your skill when needed, as a response, containing both offense and defense together, in balance.

pete

 

[Streetfigher2006]

Hi all,
i haven't had time to talk on the board because i have been so busy but I will answer some of the questions and tell everyone about my experiences with martial arts. I have no intention of flaming and NO I am not a troll. Whoever accused me of being a troll is just simply wrong.

 

[Xue Sheng]

tai chi is all about balance, offense and defense contained in one, separation within the connections... connections within the separations. terms like 'combat tai chi' don't sound right to you only because of your perceptions, not reality. time to change the paradigm.

think, if you were only reacting defensively to attacks your yin would exceed your yang. now, expand the paradigm, and think in terms of RESPONSE rather than REACT. now you have the potential for a more balanced approach, responding to a CATALYST be it threat or a signal, instead of waiting for an attack to react against. that is too late, too slow.

the trick here is to avoid ANTICIPATING, and that is where partner drills and pushing hands begin and sparring needs to be involved, so that you can use the present tense meditation practices from your Qigongs and form practice and apply in fighting, altercation, combat whatever you want to call it.

develop the physical and psychic sensitivites to the point where you can dispatch your skill when needed, as a response, containing both offense and defense together, in balance.

pete

I do not disagree with this, I have trained it and most unfortunately had to use it, this is not my problem with the terminology of "Combat Tai Chi" it is the fact that in combat I foresee a possibility of a pre-emptive strike and brutality (not that a fight isn't brutal, it most certainly is). I see the ability to use what you learn to take advantage of and or bully others with it if you will. And not that a person that practices Tai Chi cannot do those things, it just seems to me to be Philosophically wrong to call Tai Chi a Combat style that is all.

Do I think it will work in a street fight? Yes I do.

Do I think it will work in any confrontation? Yes I know it will.

But I keep going back to the Taoist side of things in my mind and it still comes out to me as being wrong or at least very strange to refer to Tai Chi as Combat Tai Chi. I also keep hearing my Sifu saying Tai Chi is not meant to attack. Not meaning it can't meaning it shouldn't be used as such.

Combat Xingyi I find I have no problem with. Combat Bagua once aging sounds at least weird, Combat Sanda once again no problem (but it was originally designed for war anyway). Combat Liu He Ba Fa that just sounds incredibly silly. Combat Karate - once again no problem. I am willing to say this is just how I feel about it and I am not going to try and argue anyone out of calling Tai Chi "Combat Tai Chi" I just think it sounds strange.

However as to the post that got me into this I will argue the point that Tai Chi is a very effective MA and to say it is not just says that the one saying it does not understand Tai Chi (and I am not referring to you pete with this last statement.)