The truth on Self-Defense and TaijiQuan / Tai Chi Chuan

[Wing Woo Gar]

It does raise the question though: why is the Western Boxing method of a hook the default? Why isn’t some other hook the go-to? Maybe boxing is missing out on something good, by not having the hook as it is found in other systems.

I have seen people that shoot it with the thumb up. I was taught to shoot it like a flat punch, wedge in. I don’t intend to sound like my way is the only way, that’s just how I learned it.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I have seen people that shoot it with the thumb up.

Do you have any video for that? I have never seen that before.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

It does raise the question though: why is the Western Boxing method of a hook the default? Why isn’t some other hook the go-to? Maybe boxing is missing out on something good, by not having the hook as it is found in other systems.

Boxing has a lot of ways to throw the hook, but is missing some because of the rules on what is permitted. You can find other styles of hook in MMA, where the rules allow more options.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

I don't think you're making a lot of sense right now. never existed is not the same as doesn't exist. We don't have video of dinosaurs. But, if a T-rex was roaming around the south of France today, you can damn sure bet there'd be video of it now. And that's even if it's a very shy T-rex.

Someone walks on water today, and I guarantee you that within hours, you'd have dozens, if not hundreds of people ALSO walking on water, including tutorials on how the stunt was done. And today, I think it's pretty reasonable to say that, absent video, if someone is claiming to be able to walk on water, you should be VERY skeptical.

It’s not a very articulate argument, I concede that. I’m not sure it’s worth it to me to give it another try.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Do you have any video for that? I have never seen that before.

Lol! Good one.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Boxing has a lot of ways to throw the hook, but is missing some because of the rules on what is permitted. You can find other styles of hook in MMA, where the rules allow more options.

What are the variations you know? Do the rules vary?

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

进步 – Step Forward, Parry Block and Punch

around 7:34
This is my Shigong by the way Tung Ying Chieh

Oh yes! Wonderful! Thank you.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I have seen people that shoot it with the thumb up.

I assume you are talking about hook punch with thumb up.

The reason I ask just because the human body don't function that way - hook punch with the thumb up.

I can turn from thumb face down -> thumb face to my face -> thumb face 45 degree over my head. I just can't turn to 90 degree with thumb up.

Whoever said that's possible, he must have abnormal wrist joint and elbow joint.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Well, I guess the first clue is that Chen Ziqiang is a well known Tai Chi instructor from Chen village. I haven't read anything to suggest that he has cross trained in other arts.

Another clue is that the flavor of his movement in this video (and others that I've seen) is a bit different from what I've seen from equivalently skilled wrestlers, judoka, jiujiteiros, or sambists.

No, I mean if I didn’t know who he was on sight and no one told me. To the second part, what quality makes it different from equivalent wrestlers, etc?

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

I assume you are talking about hook punch with thumb up.

The reason I ask just because the human body just don't function that way - hook punch with the thumb up.

I can turn from thumb face down -> thumb face to my face -> thumb face 45 degree over my head. I just can't turn to 90 degree with thumb up.

Whoever said that's possible, he must have abnormal wrist joint and elbow joint.

Yes, I mean hook punch with thumb up. Meaning thumb pointing to ceiling. Can you hook with hip and heel up? Can you same side double hook with waist and feet flat on the floor? I don’t think it’s best practice, but sure, lots of things can work.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

what quality makes it different from equivalent wrestlers, etc?

- Wrestlers will give before take.
- Taiji guys will wait and not willing to give first.

IMO, he used more Taiji conservative strategy than wrestling aggressive strategy. If you compare these 2 videos, you can see big difference between strategy, spirit, willing to take risk, ...

 

[Tony Dismukes]

What are the variations you know? Do the rules vary?

Boxing requires that you hit with the front of the fist/glove, not with the forearm or wrist or back of the fist or the hammer fist or any other surface. MMA doesn’t have any such restrictions, other than not poking your opponent in the eyes with your thumb or fingers.

Check down this video on Dominic Cruz. The analysis primarily covers his footwork, but take a look at the kinds of hooks he’s throwing. A lot of those wouldn’t be legal in boxing. Honestly they remind of punches I’ve seen in styles like Jow Ga and Shaolin Long Fist.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I assume you are talking about hook punch with thumb up.

The reason I ask just because the human body don't function that way - hook punch with the thumb up.

I can turn from thumb face down -> thumb face to my face -> thumb face 45 degree over my head. I just can't turn to 90 degree with thumb up.

Whoever said that's possible, he must have abnormal wrist joint and elbow joint.

Throwing a hook with the thumb up is one of the standard methods in western boxing. It doesn’t require any unusual flexibility.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

To the second part, what quality makes it different from equivalent wrestlers, etc?

I’m not sure how to verbalize it. It’s like a flavor or an accent in someone’s speech. I can see it, but I don’t know exactly how to analyze what I’m seeing.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Throwing a hook with the thumb up is one of the standard methods in western boxing. It doesn’t require any unusual flexibility.

- What advantage do you get from thump up hook?
- Why do you put yourself in a situation that your wrist joint can be locked? If you twist his thumb up hook (the guy on the right) clockwise, it takes no effort to have a wrist lock on him.
- You also expose the inside of your forearm (the weakest 1/4 of the whole arm, no muscle there) to your opponent's hard block.

Just try to turn 45 degree more to make your thumb to point toward your opponent's head. You will find it's very difficult to do so. At least my wrist joint and elbow joint are not that flexible.

 

[_Simon_]

I just want to thank all of you for this interesting and spirited conversation today. I especially want to thank everyone for being polite to one another.

It has actually been a very fascinating thread!

 

[drop bear]

It does raise the question though: why is the Western Boxing method of a hook the default? Why isn’t some other hook the go-to? Maybe boxing is missing out on something good, by not having the hook as it is found in other systems.

Because the boxing hook demonstratively works. Why would captain random style get the same sort of recognition as a proven method?

 

[drop bear]

Boxing has a lot of ways to throw the hook, but is missing some because of the rules on what is permitted. You can find other styles of hook in MMA, where the rules allow more options.

But they are still going off evidence. They are either using some hinkey hook and it works. Or they are asking someone else who has a hinkey hook that works.

Knock enough people out and you might even get to name your own punch.

The tyson uppercut.

 

[Buka]

At least in Texas, I still remember that when Karate turned into full contack Karate back in 1974. All the full contact Karate tournament had to followed the boxing rules and used 16 oz boxing gloves. The forum gloves was no longer allowed.

Texas in 74 was a big turning point for Martial fighting in the USA. I used to follow it in the Karate magazines when I was a wet behind the ears fighter. Then trained under some of the people there a few years later. Crazy times.

 

[mograph]

That wouldn't surprise me. Most arts evolve and change over the course of the generations. I'm willing to bet that if you could go back in time and take video of the 12th generation Chen family they would be even more different from the 19th generation than the 19th is from the 20th.

That doesn't mean it isn't Tai Chi though. Unless we're heading into "no true Scotsman" territory where everybody starts to claim that the way they learned Tai Chi is the only real Tai Chi.

I think that in order to define something as "Tai Chi" it needs to adhere to one or more core principles. If we do not agree on core principles, then there is no distinction between it and other arts, and no consistency within the art. Essentially, "tai chi" would cease to exist, since it could not be defined.

To me, while moves can be modified over time, the core principles should be the expression of yin and yang (yin would be gaining advantage through yielding), and peng (where yang is expressed through a sensation of unified expansion).

One saying is "Tai Chi is a rubber ball, Xingyi is a wrecking ball, and Bagua is a spinning top." I find this a useful analogy.