The truth on Self-Defense and TaijiQuan / Tai Chi Chuan

[drop bear]

He is not the only guy, and he isn’t doing a great job at that. YouTube, and what you may, or may not find on it is not an arbiter of what is actually out there. I am nearly certain that some posters on this thread can do a better demonstration of Tai Chi concepts. I would liken his Tai Chi Chuan to my penmanship, barely legible, but still recognizable as an attempt at a known skill.

Practical application looks different to theory.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

I don't think it would be hard to find a number of people who can do a better demonstration of Tai Chi concepts. Finding people who can actually use those concepts in a fight is a lot harder.

After I posted the Ramsey video yesterday I went browsing through a bunch of videos trying to find Tai Chi fighting applications demonstrated by someone who was an actual qualified Tai Chi instructor. In a large percentage of them it was immediately obvious that the demonstrator had no clue about actual fighting or what applications would really work. Others showed applications which could be effective, but details of the demonstrator's movement made me doubt that they had any experience applying them against resisting opponents. Some instructors had really good body mechanics, but they were showing techniques predicated on an opponent feeding them utterly unrealistic and incompetent attacks.

Probably if I searched long enough I could find someone who can both demonstrate the concepts in a way that most Tai Chi practitioners would approve of and who knows how to fight and is demonstrating applications which will work in a fight. I just ran out of time to keep looking. I'm still hoping that one of the Tai Chi practitioners here can find something for use to watch along those lines.

I can’t speak to the fighting prowess of others here. I agree that the vast majority of Tai Chi Chuan practitioners I have exchanged with are not able to use it in a fight. My teachers continuously asked this question, “but can you do it while I’m hitting you and calling your mother names”? Consequently, that is the standard that I hold. The fact that practitioners of high skill are uncommon is unfortunate, but not unexpected. The fact that they aren’t on video is not. I think that the usefulness of YouTube is entirely overblown in this context. Seeing certain animals perform certain behaviors can be exceedingly rare, just because there isn’t a video of it doesn’t mean that it doesn’t exist outside our experiences. Keep watching, you might get lucky. Some things are easy to learn because of the application or the teaching method. Some things require an uncommon ingredient in the teaching method. I put Tai Chi Chuan in this category. I can only speak for myself, and from my own experience here. Most, including other practitioners will likely disagree with me. That’s okay, they may be more advanced or have a method I have not seen. My martial art is literally a Mixed Martial Art consisting of several gung fu styles, Yang Long Tai Chi Chuan, and western boxing. I personally add to that my short time in Muay Thai, and a few years of small circle jjj. I have doubts that most people can get to a place of being able to fight effectively with Tai Chi Chuan in less than 25 years of constant instruction and practice. This belief does not in any way mean I that I think it doesn’t happen. I know that it is one thing to see real skill, while it is quite another to experience it.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Practical application looks different to theory.

It doesn’t necessarily have to. I agree that is generally the case.

 

[Steve]

I can’t speak to the fighting prowess of others here. I agree that the vast majority of Tai Chi Chuan practitioners I have exchanged with are not able to use it in a fight. My teachers continuously asked this question, “but can you do it while I’m hitting you and calling your mother names”? Consequently, that is the standard that I hold. The fact that practitioners of high skill are uncommon is unfortunate, but not unexpected. The fact that they aren’t on video is not. I think that the usefulness of YouTube is entirely overblown in this context. Seeing certain animals perform certain behaviors can be exceedingly rare, just because there isn’t a video of it doesn’t mean that it doesn’t exist outside our experiences. Keep watching, you might get lucky. Some things are easy to learn because of the application or the teaching method. Some things require an uncommon ingredient in the teaching method. I put Tai Chi Chuan in this category. I can only speak for myself, and from my own experience here. Most, including other practitioners will likely disagree with me. That’s okay, they may be more advanced or have a method I have not seen. My martial art is literally a Mixed Martial Art consisting of several gung fu styles, Yang Long Tai Chi Chuan, and western boxing. I personally add to that my short time in Muay Thai, and a few years of small circle jjj. I have doubts that most people can get to a place of being able to fight effectively with Tai Chi Chuan in less than 25 years of constant instruction and practice. This belief does not in any way mean I that I think it doesn’t happen. I know that it is one thing to see real skill, while it is quite another to experience it.

you know? I feel the exact same way about Sasquatch.

 

[Buka]

My impression of his video (having only watched this one and not watched any of the others that you mention) is that he is someone with an extremely limited understanding of taiji, who is presenting himself as more knowledgeable than he is, by finding simple parallels with his mma/grappling training. At one point in the video he does make a statement that seems to equate taiji with little more than basic wrestling. As I stated before, he should simply stick with what he knows and not try to present himself as more knowledgeable than he is. I’m not going to argue with anything he has to say about mma/competitive grappling (whatever it is that he does) because I have no expertise there. He can say whatever he wants in that case, so far as I am concerned.

There is another thing for me, and I suppose this is simply my own baggage coming into the issue. In my opinion, there is an arrogance on display with this video. It reads like an endorsement of taiji from him, which he seems to believe taiji needs because the only way taiji will get respect is if an mma/competitive grappler gives it an endorsement.

Traditional martial arts do not need the endorsement of mma/competitive grapplers.

I agree with you that Traditional Martial Arts do not need the endorsement of MMA guys/competitive grapplers. But sometimes an endorsement from somebody in another lane opens eyes to people who have them foolishly shut.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

you know? I feel the exact same way about Sasquatch.

Well that’s a bridge too far, if we put the kardashians on a naked and afraid for 60 days you would have your baby Bigfoot sighting. Seriously though, are going to say that if there isn’t a decent video, that it isn’t really possible? If I say that I have seen and experienced it, will you just dismiss me as a liar or an incompetent? The world is your oyster, judge me as you will. It would be very difficult for me to defend my position if you only accept a video as proof. A person may see Bruce Lee perform amazing feats on video, a viewer may conflate that with martial skill. We know that isn’t necessarily the case now. My point is that even when a video is present, it doesn’t tell the whole story.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

you know? I feel the exact same way about Sasquatch.

There is a little more evidence of Tai Chi Chuan skills than the existence of Bigfoot. However, look up Megafauna primates, specifically Gigantopithecus. It is literally a Bigfoot that is extinct.

 

[Flying Crane]

I dont know of a classic hook in CMA. The jab and hook is western boxing according to my teachers.

We have it.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Some things require an uncommon ingredient in the teaching method. I put Tai Chi Chuan in this category.

Honestly, I strongly suspect that the uncommon ingredient in this case is just ... fighting. Most Tai Chi students never fight. They're learning from instructors who never fought, and those instructors learned from other instructors who never fought. No wonder the understanding of the combative applications has been lost in the majority of schools.

I believe that if you got a bunch of Tai Chi schools to just introduce free sparring and grappling as a regular part of their curriculum, and then had those schools send students out to test themselves against practitioners of other fighting arts on a regular basis, then within a generation you would start to see a good number of practitioners who could fight effectively. Within no more than two generations you'd end up with a decent number of practitioners who could fight really, really well.

Along the way, they'd learn how the underlying concepts of the art translate into concrete application against a competent opponent. They'd learn which aspects of the traditional training methods map directly onto application and which are primarily useful for developing attributes and understanding of principles.

I also suspect that once they got to that point, they'd face criticism from some within the Tai Chi community that they weren't really doing Tai Chi any more just because the way they looked during a fight didn't exactly match the platonic ideal of how an instructor moves during a form or while demonstrating a technique on a student who doesn't know how to challenge them. I've already seen that claim made about Tai Chi practitioners who participate in push hands competition.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

We have it.

And there you go, no video I can see but yet, it exists.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Since my previous video showing various throws and sweeps being demonstrated by a Tai Chi school was criticized as not being real Tai Chi, here's some video of Chen Ziqiang executing a very nice foot sweep and hip throw against a much larger opponent in free grappling.

I don't know whether Chen Ziqiang has any skills in the striking department, but I have to say that from my standpoint his clinch and takedown ability looks very solid.

 

[Steve]

Well that’s a bridge too far, if we put the kardashians on a naked and afraid for 60 days you would have your baby Bigfoot sighting. Seriously though, are going to say that if there isn’t a decent video, that it isn’t really possible? If I say that I have seen and experienced it, will you just dismiss me as a liar or an incompetent? The world is your oyster, judge me as you will. It would be very difficult for me to defend my position if you only accept a video as proof. A person may see Bruce Lee perform amazing feats on video, a viewer may conflate that with martial skill. We know that isn’t necessarily the case now. My point is that even when a video is present, it doesn’t tell the whole story.

I'm not judging you in any way. I'm suggesting that we all have things we believe that, if we're being objective, can't really be independently verified.

You know, now that I think about it... it isn't what I was saying, but maybe that is what I should be saying. I mean, it's 2023. If we were having this conversation 10 years ago, I'm right there with you. However, I was curious enough by how you phrased your previous post to just see if there were videos of exceedingly rare things on YouTube. And you know, there is a TON of it. It's wild. As of June 2022, over 500 hours of video are uploaded to YouTube every minute. Every minute... 1440 minutes a day. I'm the product of an inner city school, but according to my urban math skills, that's over 720,000 hours of video every day. Every single day. The amount of video that is available is mind-blowing.

And it's been like that for about 4 years, and ramping up over the last decade. According to an NBC News story from 2012, even back then, it was like 72 hours of video per minute. So, a far cry from 30,000, but still a staggering amount of content.

So, all that to say, there may be things we can't explain. There may be things we don't understand. There may be things we lack the expertise to interpret. And to be clear, it may be that the video is lopsided and presents a biased perspective. But it would be exceedingly unlikely to suggest that there isn't a video online of it. Whatever "it" might be.

Or perhaps another way to look at it is, if there isn't video of it somewhere, perhaps it's rare enough to be considered the exception and not the rule.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Honestly, I strongly suspect that the uncommon ingredient in this case is just ... fighting. Most Tai Chi students never fight. They're learning from instructors who never fought, and those instructors learned from other instructors who never fought. No wonder the understanding of the combative applications has been lost in the majority of schools.

I believe that if you got a bunch of Tai Chi schools to just introduce free sparring and grappling as a regular part of their curriculum, and then had those schools send students out to test themselves against practitioners of other fighting arts on a regular basis, then within a generation you would start to see a good number of practitioners who could fight effectively. Within no more than two generations you'd end up with a decent number of practitioners who could fight really, really well.

Along the way, they'd learn how the underlying concepts of the art translate into concrete application against a competent opponent. They'd learn which aspects of the traditional training methods map directly onto application and which are primarily useful for developing attributes and understanding of principles.

I also suspect that once they got to that point, they'd face criticism from some within the Tai Chi community that they weren't really doing Tai Chi any more just because the way they looked during a fight didn't exactly match the platonic ideal of how an instructor moves during a form or while demonstrating a technique on a student who doesn't know how to challenge them. I've already seen that claim made about Tai Chi practitioners who participate in push hands competition.

Ok I have some questions, and some clarifications. First, I don’t want to derail our discussion over semantics. What I believe you define as a fight, I believe I may define as spar. In any case, I agree that the vast majority do not “spar”(push hands is neither sparring nor fighting) and, by my standard at least, cannot fight using strictly Tai Chi Chuan. I said as much in my previous post. The missing ingredient I spoke of may include that, but that isn’t what I was talking about. Next, it’s important to have circumspection when opining on things we don’t have much experience with. A person might watch a thousand videos of someone steelhead fishing, it won’t teach that person how to be a successful fisherman no matter if they learn the jargon, and the goal, and have seen the method performed successfully or otherwise. At best that person could get lucky, and then falsely believe that they know what steelhead fishing is and how to do it. I believe you are earnest in your argument, I also believe you hold inherent bias(we all do to some extent). I respect your honest hard work and demeanor here, so please understand I mean you no disrespect. Your idea of pressure testing is important, and I believe that much has been lost as a result of hucksters and charlatans selling their mystical but untested versions of martial arts. It is difficult to sell a phoney BJJ because of the way it’s trained. It is far easier to do a couple of martial arts tricks and refuse to spar because of “deadly” techniques. This is what leads to people selling a bill of goods to some cult like following. When I was younger I loved challenging other Tai Chi folks to a “fight”, no push hands, no gloves, a “fight”. My secret hope was that one of them would best me handily and prove me wrong. Very few would accept, and as far as someone handling me like my teachers, It never happened. My teachers could do it nearly effortlessly. I am not at that level, and it is possible I never will be, but I know it is possible because I experienced it. If I showed a video of it, would that experience somehow transfer to the viewer? If not, does that mean it doesn’t exist?

 

[Steve]

And there you go, no video I can see but yet, it exists.

No video anywhere? If it exists, I bet we can find someone, somewhere, demonstrating it somehow. Chances are very high it won't be in a fight. But if it's in a form or something like that, I'm sure we could find it, and then start the inevitable conversation about how it really would work, and the person who did it isn't very good, or it's not the REAL Tibetan White Crane... but if the assertion is that there isn't a video, I don't buy it. Again, 10 years ago? Yeah, I'm with you. In fact, I was almost reflexively with you this morning, until out of curiosity I learned exactly how much video really exists.

Edit: Just want to add that there's a lot of video of Tibetan White Crane kung fu online. Looks fun.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

I'm not judging you in any way. I'm suggesting that we all have things we believe that, if we're being objective, can't really be independently verified.

You know, now that I think about it... it isn't what I was saying, but maybe that is what I should be saying. I mean, it's 2023. If we were having this conversation 10 years ago, I'm right there with you. However, I was curious enough by how you phrased your previous post to just see if there were videos of exceedingly rare things on YouTube. And you know, there is a TON of it. It's wild. As of June 2022, over 500 hours of video are uploaded to YouTube every minute. Every minute... 1440 minutes a day. I'm the product of an inner city school, but according to my urban math skills, that's over 720,000 hours of video every day. Every single day. The amount of video that is available is mind-blowing.

And it's been like that for about 4 years, and ramping up over the last decade. According to an NBC News story from 2012, even back then, it was like 72 hours of video per minute. So, a far cry from 30,000, but still a staggering amount of content.

So, all that to say, there may be things we can't explain. There may be things we don't understand. There may be things we lack the expertise to interpret. And to be clear, it may be that the video is lopsided and presents a biased perspective. But it would be exceedingly unlikely to suggest that there isn't a video online of it. Whatever "it" might be.

Or perhaps another way to look at it is, if there isn't video of it somewhere, perhaps it's rare enough to be considered the exception and not the rule.

Ok there is common ground for us. You and I both believe it IS the exception and NOT the rule. New species are identified every day, most of us will never hear of them nor see them, yet they exist. Hundreds of millions of people believe in a mysterious guy who has missing years in his story who was supposedly able to walk on water. Where is the video? People say he shows up on toast sometimes, and there are videos. Now I haven’t seen him, nor have I seen a gigantopithecus, but without a video I can tell you which one I believe existed. On the other side of that we have some folks that believe in The Water Walker and don’t believe that dinosaurs were real. I can’t make people believe anything, but if I start to, I will be sure to make a video.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

We have it.

For the sake of the water walker, show a video.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Hundreds of millions of people believe in a mysterious guy who has missing years in his story who was supposedly able to walk on water. Where is the video? People say he shows up on toast sometimes, and there are videos. Now I haven’t seen him, nor have I seen a gigantopithecus, but without a video I can tell you which one I believe existed. On the other side of that we have some folks that believe in The Water Walker and don’t believe that dinosaurs were real. I can’t make people believe anything, but if I start to, I will be sure to make a video.

This part of the argument doesn't really make sense unless your argument is that tai chi used to be effective and no longer is. In which case there'd be no way for a video, just like there's no way for a video before videos existed.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

No video anywhere? If it exists, I bet we can find someone, somewhere, demonstrating it somehow. Chances are very high it won't be in a fight. But if it's in a form or something like that, I'm sure we could find it, and then start the inevitable conversation about how it really would work, and the person who did it isn't very good, or it's not the REAL Tibetan White Crane... but if the assertion is that there isn't a video, I don't buy it. Again, 10 years ago? Yeah, I'm with you. In fact, I was almost reflexively with you this morning, until out of curiosity I learned exactly how much video really exists.

Edit: Just want to add that there's a lot of video of Tibetan White Crane kung fu online. Looks fun.

I am tempted to make videos of my Indigo snake cocking his head like a dog when he sees something unfamiliar. I would never have believed it. It is most unsnakelike.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

This part of the argument doesn't really make sense unless your argument is that tai chi used to be effective and no longer is. In which case there'd be no way for a video, just like there's no way for a video before videos existed.

Yes, I do believe it may have been more effective at some point because we evolve and it’s old, and there aren’t a lot of people demonstrating high skill with it. There are still some, but fewer. It’s an example for why video, or the lack thereof does not constitute proof of or lack of existence. We have all seen very good special effects. We all have biases that inform what we think we saw in a video. I’m not great at writing or debating, so it’s possible I didnt articulate as well as someone else could have.

 

[Flying Crane]

For the sake of the water walker, show a video.

He isn’t even on my radar. I don’t spend any time or energy contemplating whether he existed or whether he did the things attributed to him. I simply don’t think about it. At all. That’s just me.