The truth on Self-Defense and TaijiQuan / Tai Chi Chuan

[Buka]

Thank goodness we learned the TRUTH on Self-defense and TaijiQuan/Tai Chi Chuan.

I was starting to worry we'd have to go on good teaching and experience. Whew, that was a close one.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

So, I took another look at the Ramsey video that the moderator posted as a reply to my post. I don't see anything in video that shows Ramsey likes Tai Chi Chuan (TaijiQuan)... actually the latter. If you watch the video at Time Mark: 2:10 and watch Ramsey and his partner... Ya... that not showing any sort of respect and appreciation.

He doesn't follow any sort of stepping, stances at all from any styles of Tai Chi Chuan (TaijiQuan). All styles of Tai Chi Chuan (TaijiQuan) has the same foundation and the same Tai Chi Chuan (TaijiQuan) principles.

What he is doing, is kind of mimicking the arms movement with no Tai Chi Chuan (TaijiQuan) stances or stepping at all. And to me, this is why the video was posted by the moderator, in response to what I wrote initially.

Perhaps you didn't listen to what Ramsey said. His appreciation of the art was evident, beginning with him talking about the sparring session that led to the video. That his movement isn't good by your standard doesn't actually affect whether he's showing respect and appreciation - it would rather show that he's unskilled.

For comparison, I have a lot of respect for BJJ sweeps and how some of the guards work (and the passes that get around them). If you ask me to explain what impresses me about them, I'm going to demonstrate some pretty bad BJJ. I understand some of the principles, but I'm not going to look good trying to demonstrate some of the stuff I've seen and was impressed by.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

After seeing the moderator's video reply, basically to mock what I wrote in my initial post, sorry but no.

If you think that video was meant to mock, you weren't paying attention to either the tone of the video, or the tone of Tony's response (I'm not sure why you resist using names - there are multiple moderators posting on this thread).

 

[Gerry Seymour]

You won't know whether he learned his throwing skill from Chinese wrestling, Judo, wrestling, or Taiji. Can you find any Taiji form that contains a head bend down move?

Something like this?

People may disagree with me on this. I believe forms define a style. If you can't find a certain technique in the form, that style doesn't have that technique.

What will be your answer for B if you are A?

A: My Taiji has "hip throw".
B: But I don't see that move in your form.
A: It's not in the form. We have it as basic training.
B: How do I know your basic training is not from "cross training" of other system?
A: ...

I completely disagree. You're assuming in all arts with forms, that the forms are a full dictionary of the art. That's you putting your use of forms on everyone else. Even with the forms I added to my primary art, there are several standard (taught in every dojo) techniques that don't show up in any of the forms.

You're asking someone to prove a technique is part of their style. Why? Why should they need to? A technique is part of a style if it is trained as part of the style. Period. That includes techniques added along the way that were picked up from other styles. Remember that every style ever has had techniques added, even if it was only early on by the founder of the style (if subsequent folks decided the style doesn't deserve to continue to grow and develop).

 

[Flying Crane]

Well apparently practitioners of this one school of Tai Chi at least, do hold on that long. Perhaps that's not typical in the larger Tai Chi community.

I don't see any "following to the ground" as that term would be used in Judo/BJJ/Sambo/wrestling. I do see several instances where the thrower goes out of their way to lower their partner gently to the ground. They probably wouldn't feel the need to do that if they spent more time on ukemi, but perhaps their instructor has an overly cautious approach to safety while practicing throws. I also see several instances where the thrower leans too far and too long when executing a single leg or double leg. I think that's just sloppy technique that they should work on correcting.

I’m only replying to this particular post in order to link my reply to the point being made of what taiji does or does not do in either fighting or applying technique. This does not have to do with anything specifically that @Tony Dismukes said in this particular post.

My opinion is this: a well-planned and well designed martial method has a set of principles and concepts upon which the system is built, that guide how techniques are developed and then applied in combat. These principles are what make the techniques particularly effective, beyond what is possible through raw athleticism. The specific methodology that a martial system uses in order to develop those techniques is often what sets it apart from other systems that use a similar body of techniques. That methodology, and those principles, tend to give a particular system an identifiable look, when used in combat. This is what makes it possible (sometimes) to tell what system someone trains, if you see them in a fight. But this has limitations. It is by no means absolute.

Rather, I would say that there is a fairly wide range of what someone using a particular system MIGHT look like in a fight, and that range can be from looking nearly identical to the training method on one end of the continuum, all the way to looking nothing like it. What matters are the driving principles underneath it all. If those principles are being used, then the system is being used, even if it looks very different or unusual to an observer. So someone who trains in any XYZ style does not need to look a certain way when he fights, and if he looks vastly different from the training drills, that does not automatically mean he has thrown away his training and abandoned his style in the fight. Fighting often comes down to creative application of the techniques and the principles, resulting in something that looks different.

So getting back to the point above: in my opinion, it isn’t a safe thing to say that a taiji person would fight LIKE THIS, but WOULD NOT DO THAT. I think statements like that try to create absolutes that I feel cannot be supported.

 

[drop bear]

So the only person who can approximate Tai Chi for self defence. Isn't a Tai Chi guy.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Well apparently practitioners of this one school of Tai Chi at least, do hold on that long. Perhaps that's not typical in the larger Tai Chi community.

I don't see any "following to the ground" as that term would be used in Judo/BJJ/Sambo/wrestling. I do see several instances where the thrower goes out of their way to lower their partner gently to the ground. They probably wouldn't feel the need to do that if they spent more time on ukemi, but perhaps their instructor has an overly cautious approach to safety while practicing throws. I also see several instances where the thrower leans too far and too long when executing a single leg or double leg. I think that's just sloppy technique that they should work on correcting.

a lot of taiji schools do a lot of things, but some of those things they have imported and were not originally part of taijiquan, and or are not executed properly based on the fundamentals of taijiquan. Much of Combat taiji is just that, another styles view of taijiquan.

as far as lowering to the ground, could very well be

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

So I just got to watch the video, and I'm honestly surprised it's this controversial. He is just going through practical applications of tai chi, which are very similar to the ones that I've learned in that past by a tai chi sifu (if not the same). The only issue I had with it, with very limited tai chi experience, is that he focused on the idea that it's just grappling-but that reinforces to me that he learned it from someone. How often do we see someone learn something from their teacher, and generalize it to their art? It's a constant thing-so if his teacher only taught the grappling applications, that's all that he's aware of.

That said, I actually do recall the vague story of how he learned tai chi. Basically, he met this senior master (I believe in his 70s/80s, he's the one I mentioned earlier), and sparred him. He got wrecked in grappling, despite him being an active fighter and the guy being 50 years his senior, so h,e started learning tai chi from that person at yue's school where he goes over the forms and has his students spar (or grapple/randori more likely) constantly. Which is where/how he learned tai chi.

And makes a lot of sense with the video-he is/was a tai chi student, learned the grappling aspects of the art, has contextualized it in the context of his other MA experience (as we all do), and has (multiple) videos showing people some of the practical applications.

 

[Flying Crane]

So I just got to watch the video, and I'm honestly surprised it's this controversial. He is just going through practical applications of tai chi, which are very similar to the ones that I've learned in that past by a tai chi sifu (if not the same). The only issue I had with it, with very limited tai chi experience, is that he focused on the idea that it's just grappling-but that reinforces to me that he learned it from someone. How often do we see someone learn something from their teacher, and generalize it to their art? It's a constant thing-so if his teacher only taught the grappling applications, that's all that he's aware of.

That said, I actually do recall the vague story of how he learned tai chi. Basically, he met this senior master (I believe in his 70s/80s, he's the one I mentioned earlier), and sparred him. He got wrecked in grappling, despite him being an active fighter and the guy being 50 years his senior, so h,e started learning tai chi from that person at yue's school where he goes over the forms and has his students spar (or grapple/randori more likely) constantly. Which is where/how he learned tai chi.

And makes a lot of sense with the video-he is/was a tai chi student, learned the grappling aspects of the art, has contextualized it in the context of his other MA experience (as we all do), and has (multiple) videos showing people some of the practical applications.

My impression of his video (having only watched this one and not watched any of the others that you mention) is that he is someone with an extremely limited understanding of taiji, who is presenting himself as more knowledgeable than he is, by finding simple parallels with his mma/grappling training. At one point in the video he does make a statement that seems to equate taiji with little more than basic wrestling. As I stated before, he should simply stick with what he knows and not try to present himself as more knowledgeable than he is. I’m not going to argue with anything he has to say about mma/competitive grappling (whatever it is that he does) because I have no expertise there. He can say whatever he wants in that case, so far as I am concerned.

There is another thing for me, and I suppose this is simply my own baggage coming into the issue. In my opinion, there is an arrogance on display with this video. It reads like an endorsement of taiji from him, which he seems to believe taiji needs because the only way taiji will get respect is if an mma/competitive grappler gives it an endorsement.

Traditional martial arts do not need the endorsement of mma/competitive grapplers.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Had not seen this video. I will admit I tend to like Ramsey Dewey's videos. However with that said, he says right in the video, in reference to taijiquan, that he admits he does not understand all of it and it is obvious by watching the video that he doesn't. But he does understand some of it and he is right, taijiquan is basically stand up grappling. But like most Chinese styles it has kicking, punching and Qinna as well as Shuaijiao.

Also some of what he is doing makes me thing Chen Style. And every taiji posture can have multiple applications, and the one he does, assuming he is doing what I think he is, Cranes beak from Single whip, the block and strike using the same hand, is an application I know from Taijiquan. However where I think he is falling back on his MMA stuff is with, what I see as, "this form does that", or if he does 'A' I do 'B'. That is not taijiquan. Is what he is doing viable within taijiquan? mostly. But not every attack is the same and not every usage of a taiji posture is the same. But I will admit, he does appear to stay relaxed, or in taiji lingo sung.

As to applications
There are multiple usages of Step Forward, Parry, Block, and Punch; a block, a punch an elbow strike, a sweep. etc.
There are multiple uses of Step back and repulse monkey
There is one of Needle at the sea bottom that my Yang Shifu can do, that I have no idea how you train it, or how you get to that level of timing to use it, but it will basically give the other guy whiplash
And how many know that one application of Fan through the back (most see a block and it can be) can actually break an elbow,

What you see in a taiji posture, with the possible exception of Sun style (it tends to be more obvious) is generally far from obvious as to what the application or applications are...and yet (wait for it, I'm about to go all old Chinese shifu on you), it is very obvious..... especially once you know what they do, or in some cases, once you get over the whole magical mysticism that sometimes shows up with Taijiquan

So Ramsey is using taijiquan apps, but not always correctly and he is no doubt viewing them through the eyes of a fighter such as himself. But he is correct, it is stand up grappling.

Am I offended by that video, being a taijiquan guy? Nope, not at all, I rather like it. But understand, he is a cage fighter and will look at any other style he trains from that perspective. Nothing wrong with that, it is to be expected actually. I looked a Sanda when I trained it from the perspective of Internal Chinese Martial arts. I have trained and trained with many a karate person learning Taijiquan, they have a real hard time getting out of the karate mindset of strike then block and using a whole lot of muscle, at least much more than is necessary. When I started Taijiquan I thought this applications stuff was easy, but I was looking at it from the perspective of a Jiu Jitsu/TKD guy. It was not until I started training with my Yang Shifu I saw I really did not understand much of it at all.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Additional note: Thinking about when I started taijiquan and thought I had it figured out. I remembered I thought fan through the back was a hip throw, and it could be, but I do not believe it was ever meant to be in the context of taijiquan, it is a block and it is qinna, don't think it was ever meant to be Shuaijiao, although it could be.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Had not seen this video. I will admit I tend to like Ramsey Dewey's videos. However with that said, he says right in the video, in reference to taijiquan, that he admits he does not understand all of it and it is obvious by watching the video that he doesn't. But he does understand some of it and he is right, taijiquan is basically stand up grappling. But like most Chinese styles it has kicking, punching and Qinna as well as Shuaijiao.

Also some of what he is doing makes me thing Chen Style. And every taiji posture can have multiple applications, and the one he does, assuming he is doing what I think he is, Cranes beak from Single whip, the block and strike using the same hand, is an application I know from Taijiquan. However where I think he is falling back on his MMA stuff is with, what I see as, "this form does that", or if he does 'A' I do 'B'. That is not taijiquan. Is what he is doing viable within taijiquan? mostly. But not every attack is the same and not every usage of a taiji posture is the same. But I will admit, he does appear to stay relaxed, or in taiji lingo sung.

As to applications
There are multiple usages of Step Forward, Parry, Block, and Punch; a block, a punch an elbow strike, a sweep. etc.
There are multiple uses of Step back and repulse monkey
There is one of Needle at the sea bottom that my Yang Shifu can do, that I have no idea how you train it, or how you get to that level of timing to use it, but it will basically give the other guy whiplash
And how many know that one application of Fan through the back (most see a block and it can be) can actually break an elbow,

What you see in a taiji posture, with the possible exception of Sun style (it tends to be more obvious) is generally far from obvious as to what the application or applications are...and yet (wait for it, I'm about to go all old Chinese shifu on you), it is very obvious..... especially once you know what they do, or in some cases, once you get over the whole magical mysticism that sometimes shows up with Taijiquan

So Ramsey is using taijiquan apps, but not always correctly and he is no doubt viewing them through the eyes of a fighter such as himself. But he is correct, it is stand up grappling.

Am I offended by that video, being a taijiquan guy? Nope, not at all, I rather like it. But understand, he is a cage fighter and will look at any other style he trains from that perspective. Nothing wrong with that, it is to be expected actually. I looked a Sanda when I trained it from the perspective of Internal Chinese Martial arts. I have trained and trained with many a karate person learning Taijiquan, they have a real hard time getting out of the karate mindset of strike then block and using a whole lot of muscle, at least much more than is necessary. When I started Taijiquan I thought this applications stuff was easy, but I was looking at it from the perspective of a Jiu Jitsu/TKD guy. It was not until I started training with my Yang Shifu I saw I really did not understand much of it at all.

I think you hit the nail on the head. Is he skilled in taiji? Probably not. Is he able to view it as it's own style, without focusing on what he knows? Probably not that either. But he does seem to understand some application, and expresses that which he does. I see no reason from his statements to doubt that he has some training in taiji though, and is probably similar to a video I would make if I had to make one on taiji (though I hope I'd be more humble/aware of my own shortcomings/understanding. But that doesn't help the youtube persona he's got going).

 

[Xue Sheng]

I think you hit the nail on the head. Is he skilled in taiji? Probably not. Is he able to view it as it's own style, without focusing on what he knows? Probably not that either. But he does seem to understand some application, and expresses that which he does. I see no reason from his statements to doubt that he has some training in taiji though, and is probably similar to a video I would make if I had to make one on taiji (though I hope I'd be more humble/aware of my own shortcomings/understanding. But that doesn't help the youtube persona he's got going).

I believe he trained in taijiquan, not extensively, but I believe he trained it. And I also would not be surprised if it was not Chen or Zhaobao or a derivative of one or the other

I trained with and trained karate and TKD people for years and they never really got it. Could they make it work? Yup, but it was Karate or TKD. Only had one karate (Uechi Ryu) guy get it, but he trained for many many years...until his wife told him choose one martial art to train and stay married or keep 2 and get divorced.... it took him years to lose the rigidity that seems to come with karate

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

I completely disagree. You're assuming in all arts with forms, that the forms are a full dictionary of the art. That's you putting your use of forms on everyone else. Even with the forms I added to my primary art, there are several standard (taught in every dojo) techniques that don't show up in any of the forms.

You're asking someone to prove a technique is part of their style. Why? Why should they need to? A technique is part of a style if it is trained as part of the style. Period. That includes techniques added along the way that were picked up from other styles. Remember that every style ever has had techniques added, even if it was only early on by the founder of the style (if subsequent folks decided the style doesn't deserve to continue to grow and develop).

I agree, I practice CMA, my Sigung also boxed in the Navy, so we have had jabs and hooks in our CMA since the late 50s. Is it no longer CMA because of that?

 

[Xue Sheng]

I agree, I practice CMA, my Sigung also boxed in the Navy, so we have had jabs and hooks in our CMA since the late 50s. Is it no longer CMA because of that?

there is a hook punch hidden Yang Taijiquan. And there are blocks in Wing Chun to stop a hook punch.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

So the only person who can approximate Tai Chi for self defence. Isn't a Tai Chi guy.

He is not the only guy, and he isn’t doing a great job at that. YouTube, and what you may, or may not find on it is not an arbiter of what is actually out there. I am nearly certain that some posters on this thread can do a better demonstration of Tai Chi concepts. I would liken his Tai Chi Chuan to my penmanship, barely legible, but still recognizable as an attempt at a known skill.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

there is a hook punch hidden Yang Taijiquan. And there are blocks in Wing Chun to stop a hook punch.

I think I know what you mean, with the yang hook. The wing chun block i am thinking of is more for a roundhouse type punch. I don’t know of a wing chun block for low body hooks. That said, I am not a Wing Chun guy. On the Yang hook, can you elaborate where this is in the form?

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

there is a hook punch hidden Yang Taijiquan. And there are blocks in Wing Chun to stop a hook punch.

I dont know of a classic hook in CMA. The jab and hook is western boxing according to my teachers.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Traditional martial arts do not need the endorsement of mma/competitive grapplers.

Counterpoint, Ramsey isn't addressing an audience of traditional martial artists, saying "you have my approval." He's a professional fighter/coach of professional fighters addressing an audience of people interested in fighting, some of whom are sending him messages asking things like "can Tai Chi actually be used effectively in real fighting." And his answer is "yes it can be, and here are some examples of how." Would you rather he say "no, it can't, because I've never seen a Tai Chi practitioner succeed in professional fighting" or "I can express no opinion on the matter because I haven't spent decades becoming a Tai Chi master myself"?

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I am nearly certain that some posters on this thread can do a better demonstration of Tai Chi concepts.

I don't think it would be hard to find a number of people who can do a better demonstration of Tai Chi concepts. Finding people who can actually use those concepts in a fight is a lot harder.

After I posted the Ramsey video yesterday I went browsing through a bunch of videos trying to find Tai Chi fighting applications demonstrated by someone who was an actual qualified Tai Chi instructor. In a large percentage of them it was immediately obvious that the demonstrator had no clue about actual fighting or what applications would really work. Others showed applications which could be effective, but details of the demonstrator's movement made me doubt that they had any experience applying them against resisting opponents. Some instructors had really good body mechanics, but they were showing techniques predicated on an opponent feeding them utterly unrealistic and incompetent attacks.

Probably if I searched long enough I could find someone who can both demonstrate the concepts in a way that most Tai Chi practitioners would approve of and who knows how to fight and is demonstrating applications which will work in a fight. I just ran out of time to keep looking. I'm still hoping that one of the Tai Chi practitioners here can find something for use to watch along those lines.