The truth on Self-Defense and TaijiQuan / Tai Chi Chuan

[Old Happy Tiger]

He trains/trained taiji under someone named Master Yu Dao Shui (Taijiquan, Jiangsu Province, China)
Edit: Tagging @Wing Woo Gar as well

Yu Dao Shui was student of Sun JianYun, daughter of Sun Lu Tang. Sun Lu Tang was the founder of Sun style Tai Chi Chuan (TaijiQuan), it is based from Yang Style Tai Chi Chuan (TaijiQuan).

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

He understand the concepts and principles behind taiji? I confess, I know nothing of Mr. Ramsey’s background so if he has actually studied it with a qualified instructor, if anyone knows this, feel free to correct me. But again, based on his comments on the video, it seems to me that he has not.

If that is true that he has not, then I think it’s a long shot to say he understands the concepts and principles of taiji. Recognizing some techniques that the methods have in common is not the same thing. That is actually very easy to do. Parting the Horse’s Mane actually is similar to a very powerful punch that we have in white crane. But I don’t take that similarity as evidence that I understand taiji. Similarities are easy to find. It simply means that you know your own art and you can see where many arts have things in common. That is basic.

I’m not trying to put taiji on a pedestal and pretend that it is a mystical, difficult to understand method that can give you magical powers. Not at all. In fact, I believe it is probably much more mundane and straight forward than most of us realize. But it does take deliberate study in order to have the background and context to understand how it fits together, which can be quite different from other methods. It isn’t in the similarity or difference in the shape of a technique. That is surface-level stuff. The differences lie in how the foundation is built which guides how application is done and the whole approach to combat. That is what makes two methods different, even when they have many techniques in common.

The things that make a Tai Chi guy better than the basic Choreography are subtle differences in the weight change and small body mechanics that are not easily recognizable like the gross large motions. Footwork and positioning in some cases, hand position and structure in others. I have serious doubts that someone can learn the nuanced skills from any video whatsoever. This is why we have so many phony baloney Tai Chi instructors, because they THINK they know what it is after watching a video.

 

[Old Happy Tiger]

I searched all of Ramsey's videos on his YouTube channel, and I don't see anything that shows an appreciation of Tai Chi Chuan (TaijiQuan), it's more of just promotion for himself and his YouTube channel. I did not find much about his current instructor, just the instructors background.
I took the time to write and share about self-defense and Tai Chi Chuan (TaijiQuan) from my own experiences and real background and training, that why I posted what I did.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

He trains/trained taiji under someone named Master Yu Dao Shui (Taijiquan, Jiangsu Province, China)
Edit: Tagging @Wing Woo Gar as well

Good to know. He should definitely say that. I wonder for how long he has trained with that teacher.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

If you say that Taiji as Taiji wrestling, most Taiji people may not think it's a praise.

I believe Taiji is more a striking art than a wrestling art. Taiji have more striking tools than wrestling tools.

The Taiji

- advance hammer = jab.
- fair lady work on shuttle = cross.
- left/right striking tiger = hook.
- snake extend tone = uppercut.
- turn around hammer = back fist.
- left/right separate leg = front kick.
- cross leg = reverse side kick.
- lotus kick = outside crescent kick.
- hammer under elbow = knee strike.
- ...

All true, I see it not as one or the other. I see the differences more in HOW the strike is delivered. The grappling/wrestling applications are often set up and made possible by the strike/touch/chin application.

 

[Old Happy Tiger]

So, I took another look at the Ramsey video that the moderator posted as a reply to my post. I don't see anything in video that shows Ramsey likes Tai Chi Chuan (TaijiQuan)... actually the latter. If you watch the video at Time Mark: 2:10 and watch Ramsey and his partner... Ya... that not showing any sort of respect and appreciation.

He doesn't follow any sort of stepping, stances at all from any styles of Tai Chi Chuan (TaijiQuan). All styles of Tai Chi Chuan (TaijiQuan) has the same foundation and the same Tai Chi Chuan (TaijiQuan) principles.

What he is doing, is kind of mimicking the arms movement with no Tai Chi Chuan (TaijiQuan) stances or stepping at all. And to me, this is why the video was posted by the moderator, in response to what I wrote initially.

 

[Old Happy Tiger]

Can you provide any link to a video that shows some self-defense application examples?

After seeing the moderator's video reply, basically to mock what I wrote in my initial post, sorry but no.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

All true, I see it not as one or the other. I see the differences more in HOW the strike is delivered. The grappling/wrestling applications are often set up and made possible by the strike/touch/chin application.

As a striking art, at least Taiji "fair lady work on shuttle" is no different from a "cross".

If Taiji is a wresting art, it should contain at least single leg, double legs, hip throw, foot sweep, ...

Some Taiji principles just contradict to the wrestling principles. The following wrestling requirements are considered as bad idea in Taiji training.

- arm grabbing.
- bend head down (hip throw, shoulder throw, ...).
- stand on single leg (inner hook, outer hook, leg twist, leg lift, ...).
- move gravity center out of base (sacrisfice throw).
- use force to get respond (give before take).
- ...

 

[Tony Dismukes]

If you watch the video at Time Mark: 2:10 and watch Ramsey and his partner... Ya... that not showing any sort of respect and appreciation.

You mean the point where Ramsey demonstrates a movement and then shows a solid application of how it can be applied in a fight? Yep, that is respect and appreciation. (His training partner is doing silly movements in the back to entertain himself, but he does that sort of thing all the time in their videos anyway.)

What he is doing, is kind of mimicking the arms movement with no Tai Chi Chuan (TaijiQuan) stances or stepping at all.

He's not just moving his arms, he's moving his feet and turning his hips to generate power. His stances aren't as deep and stylized as they would be in the form, but that's par for the course in just about any martial art which uses forms. The applications don't tend to be as exaggerated or stylized as the form practice.

After seeing the moderator's video reply, basically to mock what I wrote in my initial post, sorry but no.

I guarantee that I did not post that video to mock your post. I have respect for Tai Chi and I believe that Ramsey Dewey does as well. As I noted in another post, I still use snippets of the little bit of Tai Chi I've learned in my practice and if there was a local Tai Chi instructor who was actually proficient in the fighting applications of the art then I would probably take lessons from them.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

If Taiji is a wresting art, it should contain at least single leg, double legs, hip throw, foot sweep, ...

Like this?

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

After seeing the moderator's video reply, basically to mock what I wrote in my initial post, sorry but no.

I don’t believe he intended to mock you. @Tony Dismukes isn’t known for that. He seems to be a very respectful poster consistently.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

If Taiji is a wresting art, it should contain at least single leg, double legs, hip throw, foot sweep, ...

Some Taiji principles just contradict to the wrestling principles. The following wrestling requirements are considered as bad idea in Taiji training.

- arm grabbing.
- bend head down (hip throw, shoulder throw, leg lift, ...).
- stand on single leg (inner hook, outer hook, leg twist, leg lift, ...).
- move gravity center out of base (sacrisfice throw).
- use force to get respond (give before take).
- ...
- ...

You are far more experienced than I am in this regard. I use Tai Chi Chuan to augment my Gung Fu skills. I only comment on my experiences in this regard, I cannot speak to everyone and how they apply these ideas. I am only 25 years in, not a master of anything.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Like this?

You won't know whether he learned his throwing skill from Chinese wrestling, Judo, wrestling, or Taiji. Can you find any Taiji form that contains a head bend down move?

Something like this?

People may disagree with me on this. I believe forms define a style. If you can't find a certain technique in the form, that style doesn't have that technique.

What will be your answer for B if you are A?

A: My Taiji has "hip throw".
B: But I don't see that move in your form.
A: It's not in the form. We have it as basic training.
B: How do I know your basic training is not from "cross training" of other system?
A: ...

 

[Tony Dismukes]

You won't know whether he learned his throwing skill from Chinese wrestling, Judo, wrestling, or Taiji.

Well, in this case it's a demonstration from a Tai Chi school, the Five Winds School of Tai Chi in Glasgow, Scotland. The instructor's bio on their website says that he's been training Tai Chi since 1982 and does not list any background in any other martial arts. So I assume the students doing the demo learned those throws from Tai Chi. According to a comment from a school representative on the YouTube video, "Each of the throws demonstrated are directly from the Wudang Tai Chi Hand Form".

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Well, in this case it's a demonstration from a Tai Chi school, the Five Winds School of Tai Chi in Glasgow, Scotland. The instructor's bio on their website says that he's been training Tai Chi since 1982 and does not list any background in any other martial arts. So I assume the students doing the demo learned those throws from Tai Chi. According to a comment from a school representative on the YouTube video, "Each of the throws demonstrated are directly from the Wudang Tai Chi Hand Form".

So you believe that the "content of the Taiji form" doesn't define the Taiji system.

Taiji only addresses 1 contact point. I have not heard any Taiji instructor ever mention multiple contact points (such as push head down and sweep/hook leg up).

We should look at a MA system from the principles that defined the system. If Taiji is strongly against "grabbing", how can it be a wrestling art?

 

[Tony Dismukes]

For anyone who's interested, here's another video from Ramsey Dewey where he talks about Yu Dao Shui, Tai Chi, and his (Ramsey's) view on the value of forms in general and how to learn from them.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

So you believe that the "content of the Taiji form" doesn't define the Taiji system.

I have no strong opinion on the subject. I don't think I could fit everything I know about BJJ into one form or in ten forms or in 20 forms, but perhaps someone has done that for their particular style of Tai Chi.

However in this case the instructor explicitly says that all those throws are contained within one of their forms. Are you saying that he's wrong? Are you familiar with that specific form? I don't know the form he's speaking of, so I can't say one way or another.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

the instructor explicitly says that all those throws are contained within one of their forms. Are you saying that he's wrong?

If he created that Taiji form then I can believe it (I have created a 48 moves Taiji form myself). If that form is a traditional Taiji form then I don't believe it.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

If he created that Taiji form then I can believe it. If that form is a traditional Taiji form then I don't believe it.

I found a video of the instructor performing the form in question (starting around 40 seconds in).

I'll leave it to the Tai Chi practitioners to debate whether the form is traditional or contains the throws shown in the other video.

 

[Xue Sheng]

So you believe that the "content of the Taiji form" doesn't define the Taiji system.

Taiji only addresses 1 contact point. I have not heard any Taiji instructor ever mention multiple contact points (such as push head down and sweep/hook leg up).

We should look at a MA system from the principles that defined the system. If Taiji is strongly against "grabbing", how can it be a wrestling art?

Taijiquan, at least what comes from Tung Ying Chieh and Cheng Manching and the Chen Family...all have a lot of Qinna, which is grabbing, also sweeps and takedowns. Wu family is big on takedowns and Sun style has Xingyi and Bagua in it and several joint locks and a sweep or to as well. There is a lot of stand up wrestling in virtually all Taijiquan forms

As for Wudang, if you look at what comes from Zhou Xuan Yun, there is a lot of stuff that will hurt you