The "Sir" Aspect of TaeKwonDO

[Gerry Seymour]

In University I took a intro to Japanese course and basically came to the conclusion that pretty much everything I had learnt about Japanese through non-native speakers in martial arts clubs was wrong. Ok, maybe wrong is too strong of a word, but just kind of... "off". It's been almost 20 years and I've forgotten pretty much everything, but...

Language works together as a whole, it needs context. Without that we try to take the word and give it a definition in English. But that doesn't always work, because the context is lacking and the cultural context is off.

Sensei was one of those words. It's not a title, it's not something you use towards yourself. You don't introduce yourself as "Sensei ____", it's usage had more to do with a relationship and the context. It had bugger all to do with getting a black belt.

So I'd say your question is a "no" because their is no relationship their, so the honorific "sensei" has no real meaning.

Of course at this point we have basically taken the word "Sensei" and added it to the English language giving it the meaning of "Martial arts teacher", but personally I'll stick to the words we already have in English where a good one exists. I go by "Andrew" or "Coach" with the kids.

What I've been told (by folks who studied in Japan, though none were native to the language) is that Sensei is an honorific. It's apparently often used when addressing someone with specialized knowledge when you are asking them for advice/help. I may be misremembering this, but I think they told me it was even used when talking to an attorney.

I do know instructors who introduce themselves as "Sensei Smith", which would be odd (at best) to a native Japanese speaker. On a further note, I think the honorific is normally (in Japanese) placed after the name.

 

[Midnight-shadow]

As for the 1 person you would call master...I did not know we were talking about Masters here...in fact, if we really understand the title Shihan, for example...one speaks of mastering the curriculum and the ability to transmit the knowledge to others, and nothing else.

Ok, so I should probably explain my reasoning here. To my mind there are 2 uses of the term "Master". Firstly, to master something is to have complete knowledge and skill of it, to the point where you cannot really improve at it. Secondly you can also be a Master of someone which is what I was referring to before. When you are a Master of someone it is not only your responsibility to teach them, but to guide them and protect them, the same as a traditional Sifu or Sensei. In exchange for this, the Master's student pledges their loyalty to the Master and helps them in any way they can. To me, a Sifu or Sensei is more than just a Teacher, they are a Master, even if they haven't fully perfected the art they practice.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

As far as TKD is concerned it was created by a General. One would expect it to have militaristic tendencies.

As a teacher in Japan I can perhaps answer that. Sensei is a common term for teacher or someone you respect that teaches you even if he has no qualifications. A Doctor is sensei, so is a Dentist, Professor. But....... out of work you will be called just plain "San". Sensei ( 先生) means someone that was born before you. Best are banks. They call all customers Sama. Sama ( 様) indicates an intentionally elevated level of respect.

What many dont seem to realize is you should never, ever, ever, refer to yourself as Sensei or Sama unless you are making a joke. This is very rude. You might as well start asking people to get on their knees and bow down to you. Only use this on other people.

I am told that one never calls oneself 'san' either. Others call you that, you call them that. One might call me Mattocks San or Bill San, but I would not introduce myself that way.

 

[Hyoho]

Ok, so I should probably explain my reasoning here. To my mind there are 2 uses of the term "Master". Firstly, to master something is to have complete knowledge and skill of it, to the point where you cannot really improve at it. Secondly you can also be a Master of someone which is what I was referring to before. When you are a Master of someone it is not only your responsibility to teach them, but to guide them and protect them, the same as a traditional Sifu or Sensei. In exchange for this, the Master's student pledges their loyalty to the Master and helps them in any way they can. To me, a Sifu or Sensei is more than just a Teacher, they are a Master, even if they haven't fully perfected the art they practice.

The term master is usually a title in Japanese For example the term Soke where complete transmission is handed down. We can use the term Shihan when one person is the only head teacher of a particular school. But in both cases one refers to that person as Sensei.

If one is still is in training one does not have a "full cup" and is not a master. Sadly some people think they are masters before their time and move on witha half filled cup. The term giri (obligation) is not something we see so much of these days.

As to improvement, one never stops learning. I have the above title but think of myself as a 'student'. Hoping to learn more to hand on to my students. Hopefully ego is taken over by humility in this quest.

 

[Hyoho]

I am told that one never calls oneself 'san' either. Others call you that, you call them that. One might call me Mattocks San or Bill San, but I would not introduce myself that way.

Exactly. Also if somebody calls you 'San' using your first name it's also very familiar. Normally a family thing.

 

[Jenna]

I think all humans deserve a basic respect

I can't get behind the idea that all elders deserve a deep respect.. and my teacher talks about it a lot.

In which case, what is the difference between deep respect and basic respect in your view

 

[JR 137]

As far as TKD is concerned it was created by a General. One would expect it to have militaristic tendencies.

As a teacher in Japan I can perhaps answer that. Sensei is a common term for teacher or someone you respect that teaches you even if he has no qualifications. A Doctor is sensei, so is a Dentist, Professor. But....... out of work you will be called just plain "San". Sensei ( 先生) means someone that was born before you. Best are banks. They call all customers Sama. Sama ( 様) indicates an intentionally elevated level of respect.

What many dont seem to realize is you should never, ever, ever, refer to yourself as Sensei or Sama unless you are making a joke. This is very rude. You might as well start asking people to get on their knees and bow down to you. Only use this on other people.

That's how it was explained to me, but you put it far better than I did.

You said "...out of work you'll be called just plan 'San.'" Is this true of MA teacher's as well (in general)? If I studied karate in Japan and saw my teacher out in public, would it be common to address to him as sensei or any other title he's called in the dojo?

My organization (again, started by a native Japanese immigrant) has the rule that you address people who hold a title by their title outside the dojo unless that person tells you otherwise. Is this common in Japan, or do you think it's been Americanized? I'm not a fan of that policy, but it is what it is. The few people I've bumped into in public didn't want to be addressed by their karate title.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

The term master is usually a title in Japanese For example the term Soke where complete transmission is handed down. We can use the term Shihan when one person is the only head teacher of a particular school. But in both cases one refers to that person as Sensei.

If one is still is in training one does not have a "full cup" and is not a master. Sadly some people think they are masters before their time and move on witha half filled cup. The term giri (obligation) is not something we see so much of these days.

As to improvement, one never stops learning. I have the above title but think of myself as a 'student'. Hoping to learn more to hand on to my students. Hopefully ego is taken over by humility in this quest.

This is something I've been meaning to ask. Is "shihan" a title or an honorific?

I think part of the problem with "master" is that the English word maps to so many different concepts. I've seen it used similar to "sensei", and I'm comfortable with that. I've also seen it used to refer to someone who is a surpassing expert at something (including a specific MA), and I'm comfortable with that, in context. But they are very different things.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

That's how it was explained to me, but you put it far better than I did.

You said "...out of work you'll be called just plan 'San.'" Is this true of MA teacher's as well (in general)? If I studied karate in Japan and saw my teacher out in public, would it be common to address to him as sensei or any other title he's called in the dojo?

My organization (again, started by a native Japanese immigrant) has the rule that you address people who hold a title by their title outside the dojo unless that person tells you otherwise. Is this common in Japan, or do you think it's been Americanized? I'm not a fan of that policy, but it is what it is. The few people I've bumped into in public didn't want to be addressed by their karate title.

Not an answer to your question, but I feel the need to share anyway...

I have my students call me "sensei" or "Mr. Seymour" in the dojo, because that's part of the tradition I was trained in, so it's comfortable to me (and keeps them from messing up etiquette if they go to other TMA dojos). I've respectfully forbidden them from using those terms outside the dojo, because it drives me nuts.

 

[jks9199]

A thought on language...

Even when students learn the words and phrases from a given language from a native speaker, they are passed through two filters (at least), especially as schools and generations expand. The first filter is the environment; there are words that carry particular meanings in particular environments. Easy example: "Yes, sir" in the Navy and Marine Corps is an affirmative reply to a question. "Aye, aye, sir" is a response that you have heard and will comply with an order or direction. Or just think of the confusion when you give someone directions and they respond "right" to indicate that they're hearing you... There are words or phrases that are used in either particular ways or not used outside a training hall... The second filter I'll call the student's culture. The non-native student is interpreting and applying the words through their own filters of custom and language. So we get the massive weight that the word "master" or "sensei" has acquired in US (maybe Western) schools of Asian arts...

Which leads to "sir" or other signs of respect. I don't live very far from Quantico USMC Base -- home of, among other things, The Basic School -- where the Corp trains its new officers in everything they need to know to be Marine officers. I also spend time among police academy recruits. One thing both groups have in common -- a habit of "sir"ing everything that moves! It's drilled into them, for several reasons that I really don't feel like going into. Within a martial arts school, there should be respect for teachers and senior students, as people who know more than you and are in a position to teach you (if not -- why the hell are you there?). Carry to an extreme, and it gets silly. (And, point to ponder, do you really want to teach children to unthinkingly respond to directions from adults?) Even more so if you're so worried about responding "Sir!" to everything the teacher/coach says that you end up missing what's said...

 

[Andrew Green]

Even when students learn the words and phrases from a given language from a native speaker, they are passed through two filters (at least), especially as schools and generations expand. The first filter is the environment; there are words that carry particular meanings in particular environments.

A fact that a lot of people take advantage of. We have "Master" and "sir" which get passed through context filters obviously. And those differ greatly. Call a NCO "Sir" in the Canadian Armed Forces and you will likely get a ear full about that being wrong. But then their are things like the BJJ crowd using the term "Professor", which in Portuguese is, as I understand it, the right term. But in our culture that term has a very specific meaning.

Martial arts schools don't speak the native language of the art in the vast majority of cases, but just insert bits and pieces. I suppose I get it, language is a part of building a culture and creating a "tribe" as Seth Godin would put it. And their is a fuzzy line there, what one person would call honouring a culture another might call cultural appropriation.

For me I'll use English though, unless no suitable English term exists.

At the end of the day whether you call it a double wrist lock, a kimura, a reverse key lock, a gyaku ude-garami a figure four or anything else doesn't matter, the technique is the same and the schools culture will remain as long as everyone uses the same terms for the same things within the school.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Which leads to "sir" or other signs of respect. I don't live very far from Quantico USMC Base -- home of, among other things, The Basic School -- where the Corp trains its new officers in everything they need to know to be Marine officers. I also spend time among police academy recruits. One thing both groups have in common -- a habit of "sir"ing everything that moves! It's drilled into them, for several reasons that I really don't feel like going into. Within a martial arts school, there should be respect for teachers and senior students, as people who know more than you and are in a position to teach you (if not -- why the hell are you there?). Carry to an extreme, and it gets silly. (And, point to ponder, do you really want to teach children to unthinkingly respond to directions from adults?) Even more so if you're so worried about responding "Sir!" to everything the teacher/coach says that you end up missing what's said...

Quantico, Quantico...seems I've heard that name somewhere before...

 

[Rough Rider]

Wow, there's a lot of talk about Japanese language and traditions, considering that the OP studies a Korean art.

Anyway, time for my 2 cents.

My TKD dojang is also very big on "sir" and "ma'am". Coming from a military background, I had no problem adjusting to this. It's not "every syllable" but it is expected. This scenario is common with new students:
Master: (after showing a technique) "Do you understand?"
Student: "Yes."
Master: (sternly) "Yes, sir?"
Student: "Yes, sir!"

Until I came to this forum, I thought that it was quite common. My daughter was at a different school for a short time before we came to this one, and it was the same way. I also interact with other schools at tournaments and they seem similar.

Here's something that may be different, though. At my school, "sir" and "ma'am" isn't just said by juniors addressing seniors. We all address each other that way. The master will often say to a white belt "Sir, go to ring 3 and practice your form."

 

[Hyoho]

This is something I've been meaning to ask. Is "Shihan" a title or an honorific?

I think part of the problem with "master" is that the English word maps to so many different concepts. I've seen it used similar to "sensei", and I'm comfortable with that. I've also seen it used to refer to someone who is a surpassing expert at something (including a specific MA), and I'm comfortable with that, in context. But they are very different things.

It's a title. Nobody calls me Shihan. Just plain 'sensei'. For example, X Sensei is the Shihan of XX Ryu. Shihan is a head sensei or an actual head of a ryu. More prevalent in older Ryu and Karate.

 

[Hyoho]

That's how it was explained to me, but you put it far better than I did.

You said "...out of work you'll be called just plain 'San.'" Is this true of MA teacher's as well (in general)? If I studied karate in Japan and saw my teacher out in public, would it be common to address to him as sensei or any other title he's called in the dojo?

My organization (again, started by a native Japanese immigrant) has the rule that you address people who hold a title by their title outside the dojo unless that person tells you otherwise. Is this common in Japan, or do you think it's been Americanized? I'm not a fan of that policy, but it is what it is. The few people I've bumped into in public didn't want to be addressed by their karate title.

I would call my own sensei just that if I met them out. Then again that's in Japan. When I do international seminars I still get called sensei in and out. It's a personal thing. But maybe that's me and I am used to it. I never demand it of anyone. Its a cultural thing. We learn the art and learn the language. But after so many years of it I even bow on the telephone

 

[Gerry Seymour]

It's a title. Nobody calls me Shihan. Just plain 'sensei'. For example, X Sensei is the Shihan of XX Ryu. Shihan is a head sensei or an actual head of a ryu. More prevalent in older Ryu and Karate.

Interesting. In the NGAA, Shihan is used for 5th Dan and up, and is often used in place of "Sensei". So, would it be correct to say Shihan is used more like King? A King isn't properly addressed as "King Smith" (though that would be an appropriate way to refer to them), but as "Your Majesty"?

To heck with all this. I'm having my students call me "Your Majesty" from now on.

 

[JR 137]

Wow, there's a lot of talk about Japanese language and traditions, considering that the OP studies a Korean art.

Anyway, time for my 2 cents.

My TKD dojang is also very big on "sir" and "ma'am". Coming from a military background, I had no problem adjusting to this. It's not "every syllable" but it is expected. This scenario is common with new students:
Master: (after showing a technique) "Do you understand?"
Student: "Yes."
Master: (sternly) "Yes, sir?"
Student: "Yes, sir!"

Until I came to this forum, I thought that it was quite common. My daughter was at a different school for a short time before we came to this one, and it was the same way. I also interact with other schools at tournaments and they seem similar.

Here's something that may be different, though. At my school, "sir" and "ma'am" isn't just said by juniors addressing seniors. We all address each other that way. The master will often say to a white belt "Sir, go to ring 3 and practice your form."

Coming from Seido Juku, it's "osu, sensei." To be honest, I think "yes, sir/ma'am" would be better, especially for the kids. IMO the respect level would be the same, but it would have more significance in our culture.

 

[jks9199]

I\
To heck with all this. I'm having my students call me "Your Majesty" from now on.

I'm kinder... I'll settle for "Excellency."

 

[JR 137]

I would call my own sensei just that if I met them out. Then again that's in Japan. When I do international seminars I still get called sensei in and out. It's a personal thing. But maybe that's me and I am used to it. I never demand it of anyone. Its a cultural thing. We learn the art and learn the language. But after so many years of it I even bow on the telephone

I address my teacher and others by their appropriate title if/when I see them out too. It's a respect thing.

 

[JR 137]

A theme I notice when people have problems addressing others by their title is I think many times they confuse respect with subservience. Respect and subservience are not one in the same. Not at all.