The "Sir" Aspect of TaeKwonDO

[Headhunter]

I see what you're saying here. I have no problem using what he asks me to use. I am simply wondering if that is common in Tae

I agree with you. I have no problem calling him sir if he asks that of the class....I am wondering if it's normal in TaeKwonDo for teachers to be so fixated on it, and WHY it's so important. That's what I wanted to discuss. Obviously if I am asked to do something in class, I am going to comply because it's my free time and I chose to go there.

It's common in pretty much every traditional martial art. Sensai, sifu, sir, ma'm, professor. That's just it is from the traditional culture. As I've said before it's no different to any school setting. Some less traditional places like boxing gyms dont bother with it but even then they sometimes call them coach.

Well the way you've worded it makes it sound like you have a huge problem with it.

 

[Elocin]

I think one may find in the far east, there is more emphasis on respect for elders; parents, government officials, and just elders in general. Confucius certainly taught that, but he didn't invent the idea. Most MA schools will teach respect to the owner/teacher, especially in the dojang. Nothing wrong with respect.

Unless it gets to be an overly continuous part of training. I don't know your school or teacher so I can't really comment on whether or not your teacher is going beyond what I would consider the bounds or not. But if you are uncomfortable you might indeed want to try another school.

As to "I am looking to have a mature and NON heated discussion... " This is a public forum. We are reasonably well regulated, but it can get heated from time to time. Ignore that type of person or quit posting on the thread, or try to develop a thicker skin.

Lastly, welcome to MT. You might like to go to Meet and Greet and tell us a little about yourself.

Thanks this was the kind of answer I am looking for. I see that it is public, my skin is plenty thick. I just posted what I felt like saying.. which is fine too.
Thanks for the welcome

 

[Elocin]

It's common in pretty much every traditional martial art. Sensai, sifu, sir, ma'm, professor. That's just it is from the traditional culture. As I've said before it's no different to any school setting. Some less traditional places like boxing gyms dont bother with it but even then they sometimes call them coach.

Well the way you've worded it makes it sound like you have a huge problem with it.

Ah I see. OK, it's not that I hate it, I just found it odd and wondered about it. "Sir" every syllable is a little off putting but that is the choice of the higher belts and it seems a little suck uppy, but maybe not! The lower belts simply say sir if he makes a request, which is where I would like to stay at.

 

[jobo]

Agreed outside a school I'll use their name but inside I'll call them whatever the rules are. I call a guy sir in class it's hardly a big deal

Right! And everyone says "sir" after every syllable uttered from the teacher. I can not force myself to say it (every single sentence), thought I DO respect him as a person

why do you respect him, you've only just met him?

seriously , there is something very wrong with him, that's not at all common, certainly not in the uk

 

[paitingman]

It is a bit of an eastern tradition.
And most people are respectfully called by their titles (Dr., teacher, master, coach) always in the east.
In the US it would probably be odd to say "yes, teacher" "no, policeman" but sir is a good substitute.

In our TKD school we do say sir and ma'am, but it is known that the words themselves are not important at all. We use it as a way to cultivate what I would call a "great starting attitude."
When I would continually and habitually use those titles when speaking to people, eventually I just started to code switch and speak more respectfully and approached people with more respect in general.
I made it a habit to approach people with respect.

Obviously that respect should not necessarily last beyond a first encounter with someone haha which is why I call it a great STARTING attitude lol

 

[drop bear]

why do you respect him, you've only just met him?

seriously , there is something very wrong with him, that's not at all common, certainly not in the uk

There is a cultural difference. Americans love a sir or mam. Australians kind of hate it. I use it a lot from bouncing where I wanted my dialogue to be less personal. And now it is just a habit.

I use it in the gym so the coach knows I have understood him. Which can be important when you are getting flogged and he is giving tips to prevent it. Which can sometimes be hard to process as being flogged can be terribly distracting.

Otherwise what I find helps from simply a better training standpoint is to repeat the instruction back.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I use sir to my sensei. He doesn't require it. I prefer to use it.

 

[MI_martialist]

If there is a "sir" after every time the instructor speaks, that is a bit much...reminds me of the Japanese schools going around saying "oss" or "osu" every time they think of something...it is irritating and frustrating!

I can think of a good reason to force students to speak during a training session...it is to keep them from holding their breath...it forces breathing, but there are better ways than to say "Sir" every few seconds!

Most TKD schools that I know of have a very high percentage of children "training" so most of their instruction, including for adults, is geared towards children, and building their character, and they infantilize adults because they do not know how to instruct adults.

 

[MI_martialist]

Our Sensei will go mad if we say "Sir" to him...during class, when he needs a response from us, it is "Hai!"...if we need too all him..."Sensei!"... "Sir" is not a Japanese term...

I use sir to my sensei. He doesn't require it. I prefer to use it.

 

[Midnight-shadow]

Can you not still give people respect without calling them sir/sensei/sifu? I believe you can. When I'm teaching I hate being called "sir" but I still demand respect from my students. This comes in the form of listening carefully when I'm explaining the exercises and doing those exercises to the best of their ability. Consider this. Is it more disrespectful to call a person "sir" and not listen to them, than to say nothing and listen carefully to them?

I'm glad that my instructor holds a similar opinion. Hell, he doesn't even call himself "sifu" or "Master" like so many others do, because he doesn't think the title is deserved nor appropriate. I personally respect him more for that than if he insisted on using some honorific.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Our Sensei will go mad if we say "Sir" to him...during class, when he needs a response from us, it is "Hai!"...if we need too all him..."Sensei!"... "Sir" is not a Japanese term...

Isshinryu came to the US with returning US Marines. My sensei's sensei were Marines. I'm a Marine. I say "sir."

We do use Japanese terms in our dojo, and our sensei was born in Japan to an Air Force father and a Japanese mother, but we've had Japanese visitors tell us our pronunciation is wrong, so...

 

[JR 137]

If there is a "sir" after every time the instructor speaks, that is a bit much...reminds me of the Japanese schools going around saying "oss" or "osu" every time they think of something...it is irritating and frustrating!

I can think of a good reason to force students to speak during a training session...it is to keep them from holding their breath...it forces breathing, but there are better ways than to say "Sir" every few seconds!

Most TKD schools that I know of have a very high percentage of children "training" so most of their instruction, including for adults, is geared towards children, and building their character, and they infantilize adults because they do not know how to instruct adults.

Our Sensei will go mad if we say "Sir" to him...during class, when he needs a response from us, it is "Hai!"...if we need too all him..."Sensei!"... "Sir" is not a Japanese term...

Regarding Osu...

The organization I'm in (Seido Juku) and Kyokushin (where Seido came from) probably say it more than anyone else. It was annoying at first, then it became habit, and now it doesn't feel official if I don't say it

Regarding "Hai"...
I worked out at an Okinawan dojo for a summer (Seiyu Oyata's Ryu Te Renmei). They said hai just as often as I was used to saying osu. It annoyed me until I realized they or I were substituting one word for another.

 

[MI_martialist]

But the "Oss" or "Osu" is not a word substitution. The words have different meanings. "Oss" or "Osu" is a challenge...one that comes from the instructor to the students, and not back to the instructor..."Hai" is an acknowledgement of understanding!

Regarding Osu...

The organization I'm in (Seido Juku) and Kyokushin (where Seido came from) probably say it more than anyone else. It was annoying at first, then it became habit, and now it doesn't feel official if I don't say it

Regarding "Hai"...
I worked out at an Okinawan dojo for a summer (Seiyu Oyata's Ryu Te Renmei). They said hai just as often as I was used to saying osu. It annoyed me until I realized they or I were substituting one word for another.

 

[MI_martialist]

Yes...and these titles are never ones that one gives oneself...they are bestowed on the person, and hence should be respected and used as appropriate.

Can you not still give people respect without calling them sir/sensei/sifu? I believe you can. When I'm teaching I hate being called "sir" but I still demand respect from my students. This comes in the form of listening carefully when I'm explaining the exercises and doing those exercises to the best of their ability. Consider this. Is it more disrespectful to call a person "sir" and not listen to them, than to say nothing and listen carefully to them?

I'm glad that my instructor holds a similar opinion. Hell, he doesn't even call himself "sifu" or "Master" like so many others do, because he doesn't think the title is deserved nor appropriate. I personally respect him more for that than if he insisted on using some honorific.

 

[JR 137]

But the "Oss" or "Osu" is not a word substitution. The words have different meanings. "Oss" or "Osu" is a challenge...one that comes from the instructor to the students, and not back to the instructor..."Hai" is an acknowledgement of understanding!

I'm not a native Japanese speaker, nor do I speak Japanese other than "dojo Japanese" as I like to call it, and a few Japanese phrases I've picked up from friends and coworkers...

Hai means yes. Just like English, yes can be used as literal yes, or as you say acknowledgement.

Not to turn this into an osu meaning thread, but...

There's a bunch of different views on osu, even amongst native Japanese speakers. I've seen several Japanese people correct non-Japanese on their understanding of osu, and many of them contradict each other.

I use osu as I was taught it: short for oshishinobu. It can mean persevere, used as acknowledgement, a greeting, and so on. In our dojo, it's kind of a universal word. Our founder was born and raised in Japan (Tadashi Nakamura). His teacher was Mas Oyama of Kyokushin. Nakamura's contemporaries such as Shigeru Oyama, Hideyuki Ashihara, Joko Ninomiya, et. al. all also use the word the same way. They don't view it as a challenge put back on the teacher.

Other Japanese schools that didn't come from Kyokushin do the same.

On paper, osu isn't a substitution for hai. In the dojos I've been to that use hai as frequently as we use osu, it practice it's basically using a different word the same way.

I've also found many Okinawan schools don't like osu. They tend to range from being annoyed by it to despising it.

 

[Midnight-shadow]

Yes...and these titles are never ones that one gives oneself...they are bestowed on the person, and hence should be respected and used as appropriate.

Yes but the titles themselves are used to describe the relationship between teacher and student. For example, the person who teaches you Martial Arts is your Sensei, and you are his student. That is the relationship. I am not his student therefore there is no point in me calling him Sensei no matter how great a Martial Artist he is or claims to be. For me to call him Sensei would imply a relationship that I didn't have with him. This is also why my instructor doesn't claim to be a Sifu or Master, because to him a Sifu is not only a teacher, but a mentor, protector and (sort of) father-figure to the student. He doesn't feel that he has that kind of deep connection with his students and therefore the title is unjustified.

There is only one person in the world who I would ever consider calling "Master" because that was exactly what he was to me.

Here's a question for you. If you have no students can you still be called a Sensei or Sifu?

 

[Andrew Green]

Here's a question for you. If you have no students can you still be called a Sensei or Sifu?

In University I took a intro to Japanese course and basically came to the conclusion that pretty much everything I had learnt about Japanese through non-native speakers in martial arts clubs was wrong. Ok, maybe wrong is too strong of a word, but just kind of... "off". It's been almost 20 years and I've forgotten pretty much everything, but...

Language works together as a whole, it needs context. Without that we try to take the word and give it a definition in English. But that doesn't always work, because the context is lacking and the cultural context is off.

Sensei was one of those words. It's not a title, it's not something you use towards yourself. You don't introduce yourself as "Sensei ____", it's usage had more to do with a relationship and the context. It had bugger all to do with getting a black belt.

So I'd say your question is a "no" because their is no relationship their, so the honorific "sensei" has no real meaning.

Of course at this point we have basically taken the word "Sensei" and added it to the English language giving it the meaning of "Martial arts teacher", but personally I'll stick to the words we already have in English where a good one exists. I go by "Andrew" or "Coach" with the kids.

 

[JR 137]

In University I took a intro to Japanese course and basically came to the conclusion that pretty much everything I had learnt about Japanese through non-native speakers in martial arts clubs was wrong. Ok, maybe wrong is too strong of a word, but just kind of... "off". It's been almost 20 years and I've forgotten pretty much everything, but...

Language works together as a whole, it needs context. Without that we try to take the word and give it a definition in English. But that doesn't always work, because the context is lacking and the cultural context is off.

Sensei was one of those words. It's not a title, it's not something you use towards yourself. You don't introduce yourself as "Sensei ____", it's usage had more to do with a relationship and the context. It had bugger all to do with getting a black belt.

So I'd say your question is a "no" because their is no relationship their, so the honorific "sensei" has no real meaning.

Of course at this point we have basically taken the word "Sensei" and added it to the English language giving it the meaning of "Martial arts teacher", but personally I'll stick to the words we already have in English where a good one exists. I go by "Andrew" or "Coach" with the kids.

They don't call you sir?

On a more serious note...

I had several Japanese friends/coworkers when I worked in the NYC area. It's hard to explain, but what I gathered is the term sensei used in a non-MA setting is for a teacher whom is well respected, revered, etc. Art teachers, pottery teachers, etc. can commonly be called sensei by their long term students. Maybe better put, it's a way of affectionately calling someone teacher, in a sense. Again, hard to describe.

Was the head of your organization and/or dojo a native Japanese speaker? The organization I'm in is founded by Tadashi Nakamura, a native Japanese karateka. All of our terminology comes from him. Some non-MA Japanese people say some things are wrong, others say it's correct. I think it's all about context. And perhaps some of the terms come from Okinawan language/dialects rather than mainland Japanese, further confusing the issue. That's just a guess though.

 

[MI_martialist]

Well, of course the title describes the relationship, but it is an honorific, so I would have no issue calling any legitimate Sensei "Sensei". The question is...what makes a legitimate Sensei? There are "Grand Masters" that I call Mr. So and So, who call me Sensei.

As for the 1 person you would call master...I did not know we were talking about Masters here...in fact, if we really understand the title Shihan, for example...one speaks of mastering the curriculum and the ability to transmit the knowledge to others, and nothing else.

I only have 1 MASTER in my life...but the equivalency is false and is made false due to a poor understanding of the language.

Yes but the titles themselves are used to describe the relationship between teacher and student. For example, the person who teaches you Martial Arts is your Sensei, and you are his student. That is the relationship. I am not his student therefore there is no point in me calling him Sensei no matter how great a Martial Artist he is or claims to be. For me to call him Sensei would imply a relationship that I didn't have with him. This is also why my instructor doesn't claim to be a Sifu or Master, because to him a Sifu is not only a teacher, but a mentor, protector and (sort of) father-figure to the student. He doesn't feel that he has that kind of deep connection with his students and therefore the title is unjustified.

There is only one person in the world who I would ever consider calling "Master" because that was exactly what he was to me.

Here's a question for you. If you have no students can you still be called a Sensei or Sifu?

 

[Hyoho]

They don't call you sir?

On a more serious note...

I had several Japanese friends/coworkers when I worked in the NYC area. It's hard to explain, but what I gathered is the term sensei used in a non-MA setting is for a teacher whom is well respected, revered, etc. Art teachers, pottery teachers, etc. can commonly be called sensei by their long term students. Maybe better put, it's a way of affectionately calling someone teacher, in a sense. Again, hard to describe.

Was the head of your organization and/or dojo a native Japanese speaker? The organization I'm in is founded by Tadashi Nakamura, a native Japanese karateka. All of our terminology comes from him. Some non-MA Japanese people say some things are wrong, others say it's correct. I think it's all about context. And perhaps some of the terms come from Okinawan language/dialects rather than mainland Japanese, further confusing the issue. That's just a guess though.

As far as TKD is concerned it was created by a General. One would expect it to have militaristic tendencies.

As a teacher in Japan I can perhaps answer that. Sensei is a common term for teacher or someone you respect that teaches you even if he has no qualifications. A Doctor is sensei, so is a Dentist, Professor. But....... out of work you will be called just plain "San". Sensei ( 先生) means someone that was born before you. Best are banks. They call all customers Sama. Sama ( 様) indicates an intentionally elevated level of respect.

What many dont seem to realize is you should never, ever, ever, refer to yourself as Sensei or Sama unless you are making a joke. This is very rude. You might as well start asking people to get on their knees and bow down to you. Only use this on other people.