The "Reality" of UFC/NHB fighting, pressure testing sports moves, and the Real World.

[RoninPimp]

Ok, you think an MMA competitor will have the edge on the street over a similiarly experienced TMA. So what?

-I believe this to be true. I agree that it is not important. The point I am trying to make is that MMA guy is better equiped against a criminal than a TMA guy if it is empty hands and 1 on 1. I also believe that the same sport training methodology that makes MMA so effective in its context, is the most effective way to find out what works with any scenario. Weapons, multiple oponents, rough terrain, whatever.

 

[RoninPimp]

I dunno. He's actually competed, and won, several times. Seems holding a few titles would be credible, even if they aren't the PPV leagues. He'll be at the MT M&G this year. Stop in, I'll introduce ya.

-That's great. Getting in the cage is huge. What's the MT M&G? So you honestly believe that TMA training has as much training benefit as hard MMA sparring? And by training benefit I mean like in increasing combat effectiveness.

 

[bushidomartialarts]

Nobody has been able to refute this with any evidence. Only opinion.

Once upon a time I used to bounce in a place maybe a half mile down the strip from a gaidojutsu school. Their guys -- pretty stereotypical MMA dudes -- used to come in often. 95% of the time they were good guys. Kept to themselves. Tipped well. Treated the staff with respect. Took no for an answer if they tried to buy someone a drink. Good dancers, too. The other 5% of the time, they got politely but indisputably removed by our staff -- each and every one a TMA dude, with a little kickboxing between us. Never stood a chance, because none of us were willing to go to the ground.

Every single time I've played with an MMA guy, I've had a lot of fun. If we played by their rules, they won. If we played by my rules, I won. If we sort of mixed it, I came out on top most of the time -- usually by using a move they weren't prepared for (often a minor joint manipulation).

Several judoka and jiu-jutsu practitioners have gone on record saying they dislike what MMA has done to their arts. Specifically, they see people training to perform that which will score points -- as opposed to people training to perform that which will be street effective. These are professional grapplers, people who rolled before folks started calling it 'rolling'.

What I will say for MMA guys is they tend to be in shape, and they tend to be strong. That goes a long way in a fight.

 

[bushidomartialarts]

So you honestly believe that TMA training has as much training benefit as hard MMA sparring? And by training benefit I mean like in increasing combat effectiveness.

absolutely.

training methodology is a different matter, and i'd say most mma guys train harder than most tma guys. a lot of us tma folks place less emphasis on the physical than mma practitioners -- which would put your average mma guy ahead of a tma guy with the same level of expertise.

but that's because mma guys train harder, not because mma is combatively superior to tma. there's no such thing as a superior martial art, just superior dedication and superior instruction.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

-That's great. Getting in the cage is huge. What's the MT M&G? So you honestly believe that TMA training has as much training benefit as hard MMA sparring? And by training benefit I mean like in increasing combat effectiveness.

I believe quality TMA training will better equip you for a wider range of confrontations. Note, I said Quality training. Training under some bozo who doesn't understand the dance steps means you're just dancing. A solid instructor can take you alot farther. Case in point: I thought tai chi was just "stretching for oldies", until I started talking with a guy who explained the throws, joint destructions, and other serious stuff that's buried in there. Unfortunately, it's hard to find those nuggets of intel in a world full of "microwave popcorn fu" (You know, black belt in 10 minutes or you get it free guys?) I've had similar discussions with CMA and Kenpo guys. Some of them "get it", and others just go through the motions. You have to find the guys who understand why, not just the parrots. (Too many out there, in all styles IMO).

The MMA attitude has some pluses. After all, it's hard to outrun 20 screaming gangbangers when you're sucking air from step 1. Plus, if you look like you can bench a small nation...it tends to intimidate, which always is a good deterrent.

MT M&G Info. Under construction, but theres video from last year in the video gallery.

 

[RoninPimp]

Once upon a time I used to bounce in a place maybe a half mile down the strip from a gaidojutsu school. Their guys -- pretty stereotypical MMA dudes -- used to come in often. 95% of the time they were good guys. Kept to themselves. Tipped well. Treated the staff with respect. Took no for an answer if they tried to buy someone a drink. Good dancers, too. The other 5% of the time, they got politely but indisputably removed by our staff -- each and every one a TMA dude, with a little kickboxing between us. Never stood a chance, because none of us were willing to go to the ground.

Every single time I've played with an MMA guy, I've had a lot of fun. If we played by their rules, they won. If we played by my rules, I won. If we sort of mixed it, I came out on top most of the time -- usually by using a move they weren't prepared for (often a minor joint manipulation).

Several judoka and jiu-jutsu practitioners have gone on record saying they dislike what MMA has done to their arts. Specifically, they see people training to perform that which will score points -- as opposed to people training to perform that which will be street effective. These are professional grapplers, people who rolled before folks started calling it 'rolling'.

What I will say for MMA guys is they tend to be in shape, and they tend to be strong. That goes a long way in a fight.

-My BS meter is going off because according to Wikipedia "gaidojutsu" is a hybrid style in AZ. You are in OR. Giving you the benefit of doubt, one story is hardly enough evidence to overcome similar stories with every thing reversed, plus the more important and overwhelming video evidence of early MMA and other challenge match videos.

 

[RoninPimp]

absolutely.

training methodology is a different matter, and i'd say most mma guys train harder than most tma guys. a lot of us tma folks place less emphasis on the physical than mma practitioners -- which would put your average mma guy ahead of a tma guy with the same level of expertise.

but that's because mma guys train harder, not because mma is combatively superior to tma. there's no such thing as a superior martial art, just superior dedication and superior instruction.

-I don't understand. You say "absolutely", but you say "tma folks place less emphasis on the physical". That's a contradiction. How can the actual physical techniques of combat be equaly developed when by your own statement that tma's are less physical?

 

[RoninPimp]

I believe quality TMA training will better equip you for a wider range of confrontations. Note, I said Quality training. Training under some bozo who doesn't understand the dance steps means you're just dancing. A solid instructor can take you alot farther. Case in point: I thought tai chi was just "stretching for oldies", until I started talking with a guy who explained the throws, joint destructions, and other serious stuff that's buried in there. Unfortunately, it's hard to find those nuggets of intel in a world full of "microwave popcorn fu" (You know, black belt in 10 minutes or you get it free guys?) I've had similar discussions with CMA and Kenpo guys. Some of them "get it", and others just go through the motions. You have to find the guys who understand why, not just the parrots. (Too many out there, in all styles IMO).

The MMA attitude has some pluses. After all, it's hard to outrun 20 screaming gangbangers when you're sucking air from step 1. Plus, if you look like you can bench a small nation...it tends to intimidate, which always is a good deterrent.

MT M&G Info. Under construction, but theres video from last year in the video gallery.

-And all that there secret hidden Tai Chi knowledge helped you when you were rolling against the MMA guys and constantly tapping? Doesn't sound like it if you were constantly tapping.

 

[bushidomartialarts]

gaidojutsu used to be around in the southwest desert AZ, NV, NM, TX, parts of CA and I heard parts of mexico. haven't seen any since i moved back home about 4 years back, but they could be going strong back there still.

up in my neck of the woods, the scene is pretty dominated by bjj and octagon fighters. randy couture's sportfight is picking up considerable steam.

for the meat of your argument, you're right -- MMA challenge matches seem to favor the MMA guys. but most of those matches i've seen play by the MMA rules so don't really apply to the question you're asking.

have you seen matches where an MMA guy, for example, fought under muay thai rules? or an MMA guy in one of the dog brothers' events? i personally haven't, but i think it would go a long way towards answering your question.

 

[bushidomartialarts]

-I don't understand.

honestly, i don't think you're trying to. seems like you've made up your mind, so i'm going to bed.

you say some cool things on this forum sometimes, dude. sometimes your way of saying it can turn folks off. that's sort of unfortunate.

 

[RoninPimp]

little boy, you don't know me, so i'll tell you this once for free. if i tell you something, it's true to the best of my knowledge. i've been wrong plenty of times, but i don't go 'round saying what isn't so. not on purpose anyway.

gaidojutsu used to be around in the southwest desert AZ, NV, NM, TX, parts of CA and I heard parts of mexico. haven't seen any since i moved back home about 4 years back, but they could be going strong back there still.

up in my neck of the woods, the scene is pretty dominated by bjj and octagon fighters. randy couture's sportfight is picking up considerable steam.

for the meat of your argument, you're right -- MMA challenge matches seem to favor the MMA guys. but most of those matches i've seen play by the MMA rules so don't really apply to the question you're asking.

have you seen matches where an MMA guy, for example, fought under muay thai rules? or an MMA guy in one of the dog brothers' events? i personally haven't, but i think it would go a long way towards answering your question.

-I am no little boy. Don't refer to me as one. I was going off the information I had available to me. I stand corrected. Refer to what I said about stories being available for both sides. And the more important video evidence. And again, MMA rules are the least restrictive. What does Thai boxing and the Dog Brothers have to do with this? They both train in the same "Alive" manner as MMA.

 

[RoninPimp]

honestly, i don't think you're trying to. seems like you've made up your mind, so i'm going to bed.

you say some cool things on this forum sometimes, dude. sometimes your way of saying it can turn folks off. that's sort of unfortunate.

-I don't understand your point because it was a contradiction. I state the truth as I see it bluntly in the most scientific and scholarly way I can. If that "turns folks off", I don't really care. It's the interwebs.

 

[RoninPimp]

so seriously, what's with all the chest-thumping over this?

you'd think anybody with (did ronin say 20? doubtful since he spells 'street' with arabic numerals...) years experience would have gotten past the "my art can beat up your art" thing.

martial arts is, ultimately, about becoming a better human being. evolving and growing. to get all swole up about whether your road to the mountain is better than some other guy's road to the mountain sort of misses the point, don't you think?

-I am not arguing "my style vs. your style".I am arguing for the scientific method to be applied to SD training. I am 35. I have wrestled since high school. I trained in Judo prior to my current training in BJJ and MMA that I have been doing since 1997. I can private message you with easily verafiable instructor names if you wish. Just let me know. I do not lie about my MA experiance.

 

[green meanie]

Okay, I've tried staying out of this and maybe I'm not getting all that's being said here but it seems to me that it mostly boils down to this:

RoninPimp's argument is that you have to test your stuff in an 'alive' manner or you won't know if it will work or not -and I think most people on here agree with that. I know I do. But what some people are trying to point out and suggest is: if you're training for competition; if competition is the focal point, even an extreme level of competition like the UFC, and you're never taking the time to train with self-defense in mind, then it's going to be somewhat flawed when it's applied on the street. No one is saying that it doesn't have value or that it wouldn't work. Just like no one is saying that boxing doesn't have value on the street or wrestling doesn't have value on the street. What is being suggested is that you should try to consider incorporating self-defense situations into your 'pressure testing' practices. Because no one is disputing the value of an intense MMA-style practice session but why not create a two on one situation and 'pressure test' that? Is there anyone who can't see the value of a good solid practice of intense training spent the way RoninPimp describes but one that brings more situations into the equation that just a one on one match up? There's so many things that could be tried out and tested: multiple opponents, weapons, training outside, etc. because somewhere in the middle of all this is some common ground. It'd be nice if we could find it.

My two cents...

Thoughts?

 

[Xue Sheng]

-"Thousands" of years of TMA is a horiible exageration. TKD and Karate are 20th century arts. CMA documentation iirc goes back only a few hundred years. The oldest documentation, again iirc, on Koryu arts only go back to the late middle ages.

Sorry, I had every intension of not posting here again, but there is something that is historically incorrect.

Traditional martial arts do not only come from Japan, they also come from China and Shùai jīao is very old. There are also other old CMA styles.

Chinese wrestling art presently called Shùai jīao - from the Zhao dynasty 1122 to 221 BC

 

[Rich Parsons]

-Have you read anything I've posted? MMA prepares you for the str33t when when a particular str33t confrontation is 1 on 1 with no weapons. The only thing effective with multiple oponents and weapons is running, avoidence, or a firearm. What do you do that will help you in those situations that I don't?

Ronin P,

This is not a post against you, just a follow up addition.

What can one do different from what I have done?

Train for multiple opponents with weapons. It is easier with impact then knife, but the training can help you also position yourself to be able to break free.

It can also do what I call the Guardian tactics. You know this when you are out and you have to take care of those with you, even if they do not know it. So as they get to the car per your request or orders, you delay the attackers. Then make the break.

Unless you are very trained in weapons and up against an untrained person who looses a weapon and you get it, or if you can improvise a weapon yourself will the odds change. But still not necessarily in one's favor. Hence why some people carry palm sticks or pocket knives or even a firearm to deal with this type of stuff.

Peace

 

[Rich Parsons]

so seriously, what's with all the chest-thumping over this?

you'd think anybody with (did ronin say 20? doubtful since he spells 'street' with arabic numerals...) years experience would have gotten past the "my art can beat up your art" thing.

martial arts is, ultimately, about becoming a better human being. evolving and growing. to get all swole up about whether your road to the mountain is better than some other guy's road to the mountain sort of misses the point, don't you think?

I have over 20 years of Martial Arts training and teaching. I also have some street experience during my training and before my training began.

I spell str33t when I am making a point about people's attititude. This is a way to make a statement about those who are in experienced in a sarcastic point of way. Not sure which way it was meant or why it was used. Jsut chiming in with how I might have used it myself.

 

[Rich Parsons]

-At any rate I have not stated that TMA's are worthless. I have said they are demonstratably less effective than MMA where empty hands are concerned. Nobody has been able to refute this with any evidence. Only opinion.

Hence your arguements about pressure testing. Right?

So if a TMA such as a FMA used pressure tests not point sparring, used some hand pads to avoid breaking skin to bad, and mixed it up, would that also justify your point?

Yet, I would think you might conceed that one or two or even a few in any given arts does this, but this is not what you have seen on the whole or on the average. Correct?

 

[Bob Hubbard]

-And all that there secret hidden Tai Chi knowledge helped you when you were rolling against the MMA guys and constantly tapping? Doesn't sound like it if you were constantly tapping.

I didn't say that. Understanding what is there, and being able to pull it off are 2 different things dude. Primo's also been training in Arnis for a lot longer than I. We also stayed within the 'safe' limits, so I wasn't allowed to bring a folding chair on the floor. LOL.

 

[Rich Parsons]

-That's great. Getting in the cage is huge. What's the MT M&G? So you honestly believe that TMA training has as much training benefit as hard MMA sparring? And by training benefit I mean like in increasing combat effectiveness.

The MT M&G is the Martial Talk Meet and Greet. It is a seminar for our members to show up and do some teaching, I have not seen the complete list of instructors, BTW I taught last year, and to do some cross training and see what people have and like to do.

Many of the people I crossed hands with where extremely surpised that this stick jock had joint locks and control that worked and or could execute their techniques under another name. It is a good way to meet people and have fun.