The "Reality" of UFC/NHB fighting, pressure testing sports moves, and the Real World.

[RoninPimp]

There is no evidence needed. You are stating your opinion based on a small group of people by comparison to all those that train TMA.

-LOL, you don't need evidence to argue your point, but it helps. I have evidence to support my claims. You do not.

You are basing the UFC as evidence that all of TMA is useless and kata based. You want me to except as overwhelming proof that all Traditional martial artists all over the world are no good based on the UFC.

That is simply not overwhelming proof.

-I am saying that any art that doesn't have empty hand techniques that resemble what is seen in the UFC doesn't have the most effective empty hand techniques. If thousands upon thousands of amateur and professional fights, challenge matches, and sparring sessions aren't overwhelming proof, then I don't know what would ever be proof to you.

I currently train 2 different CMA styles I have trained greater than 2. I have used CMA to spare, TDK, Karate, Aikido, and other CMA. Since techniques and or applications can be similar from one TMA to another I can not say which was this CMA and which was that CMA and which was jujitsu and which was TDK.

I also said I trained Jujitsu and non-sport tdk before.

-That's also great. You should expand your horizons more and add as many different styles as possible to that list.

And being specific would help how?

I have already stated that I use to work in a hospital that had a mental health and detox. I was security at the time, which is as specific as I will get.

-You can't use information, you claim to have, that you won't share to argue your point.

And you are then only interested in a one sided debate, is that what I am understanding here.

And how is it not relevant to the thread? If you are stating that TMA is no good without pressure testing than you have made it relevant by your own statement. If you have never trained TMA then how you would you know what it is and if it is good or not?

-I am interested in your side, but you haven't produced any evidence to support your claims. I stated what my definition of TMA is. If its wrong, I don't want to make that the focus of the discussion. I will gladly use the term "kata focussed arts that don't spar" in its place.

I have never trained in an art that is kata focussed and doesn't spar. Arts that are kata focussed and don't spar that don't have techniques that resemble techniques found in MMA don't have the most effective empty hand techniques. Do you see my point now? TMA is so much easier to type...

 

[RoninPimp]

Has there been every example of every style of TMA represented in the UFC? No, and based on the few that tried you claim all TMA is flawed. This is not enough for me to except as proof. What TMA styles tried?

-I do not know why every style hasn't tested itself in MMA. You would have to ask them yourself. I would like to know the answer myself.

-Several styles of Karate and Kung-Fu, and TKD were in the early UFC's. They got crushed. Do your research and watch them.

 

[cfr]

Why don't boxers do college Wrestling?

Has there been every example of every style of TMA represented in the UFC? No, and based on the few that tried you claim all TMA is flawed. This is not enough for me to except as proof. What TMA styles tried?

# 1 No, that means they are boxers, not wrestlers.
# 2 I doubt every style of TMA has been in the UFC. I never said it was flawed, but I'm still curious as to why they dont dont enter these rule bound sports any longer? Lets not forget, at one time they did. Maybe it has something to do with all the character building TMA training they do?

 

[Bob Hubbard]

-I do not know why every style hasn't tested itself in MMA. You would have to ask them yourself. I would like to know the answer myself.

-Several styles of Karate and Kung-Fu, and TKD were in the early UFC's. They got crushed. Do your research and watch them.

Were they "crushed" because their techniques are flawed, or because under the rules of a UFC style match, much of the sting is removed?

I train in Filipino arts, Arnis to be exact. Many of the techniques I've learned are not legal in a UFC match. Small joint manipulations, certain SCJJ movements, etc. Seems that someone who knows the rules, who can work well within them, would have the advantage over someone who doesn't play be the rules. I've done Kenpo. Same thing. Movements that are geared towards joint destruction, etc aren't allowed. Looking at the rules that were posted, and my limited knowledge of TMA, seems that alot of their "good stuff" wouldn't be allowed. Hard to test something when you can't use it.

 

[cfr]

Were they "crushed" because their techniques are flawed, or because under the rules of a UFC style match, much of the sting is removed?

I train in Filipino arts, Arnis to be exact. Many of the techniques I've learned are not legal in a UFC match. Small joint manipulations, certain SCJJ movements, etc. Seems that someone who knows the rules, who can work well within them, would have the advantage over someone who doesn't play be the rules. I've done Kenpo. Same thing. Movements that are geared towards joint destruction, etc aren't allowed. Looking at the rules that were posted, and my limited knowledge of TMA, seems that alot of their "good stuff" wouldn't be allowed. Hard to test something when you can't use it.

Mr Hubbard as mentioned throughout this thread, Id say Im a middle of the roader between TMA and MMA. I think they both have value, it just really annoys me when people claim MMA training is useless in the street. In addition to this, I am still hard pressed to see anyone come up with an answer to the following points:

Street technique versus Sport Techniques or "Just add dirt" I can hear it now from all the street fighters... "But Luis, what about eye gauges, hair pulling, biting, ripping, pinching, scrotum striking, yanking and smashing, scratching, spitting, foaming at the mouth, growling, breaking bottles, wearing boots, colon control and crapping at will?" Well, what about all that? If you can't even hit a guy with a 16oz. glove how the hell are you going to eye jab him? If you can't keep a guy from putting you on the ground and proceeding to do his best rendition of River Dance on your cranium, how the hell are you going to just kick him in the balls or bite him? And if you indeed are getting punched, kicked, and out grappled by a superior martial artist and you get the bright idea to bite him, what's to stop him then from doing the same if not worse to you…and from a much better vantage point to boot? (Pun intended.) Bottom line…if you build a foundation on movement (timing and awareness in motion) and the attributes necessary to deliver and apply efficient strikes, controls and finishes, you just need to add the foul or dirty tactics. It doesn't work the other way around. "Be like water…then just add dirt." Luis (El Che) Guitierez - 3-12-2000

 

[RoninPimp]

Were they "crushed" because their techniques are flawed, or because under the rules of a UFC style match, much of the sting is removed?

I train in Filipino arts, Arnis to be exact. Many of the techniques I've learned are not legal in a UFC match. Small joint manipulations, certain SCJJ movements, etc. Seems that someone who knows the rules, who can work well within them, would have the advantage over someone who doesn't play be the rules. I've done Kenpo. Same thing. Movements that are geared towards joint destruction, etc aren't allowed. Looking at the rules that were posted, and my limited knowledge of TMA, seems that alot of their "good stuff" wouldn't be allowed. Hard to test something when you can't use it.

-I would argue their technique was flawed. There were even fewer rules early on. Groin strikes and small joint locks were allowed. There are rules, but they are as limited as fighter safety will allow. The MMA and BJJ curricullums I've been exposed to address the "dirty tactics" as dangers and techniques to use. The training method certainly can take those into account by using goggles and other safety gear already mentioned. Somebody that wants to use dirty tactics whether striking or grappling still needs an effective "delivery syatem" to use them. A cross is a better delivery system than a reverse punch to deliver a strike whether it is a fist or an eye gouge.

 

[Xue Sheng]

# 1 No, that means they are boxers, not wrestlers.
# 2 I doubt every style of TMA has been in the UFC. I never said it was flawed, but I'm still curious as to why they dont dont enter these rule bound sports any longer? Lets not forget, at one time they did. Maybe it has something to do with all the character building TMA training they do?

#1 - it also means they were trained differently with different objectives, tactics and rule sets.

In an attempt to keep this friendly

After walking away form this I wonder if this could be a reason as to why more TMA people do not participate in the UFC, and it is also the same reason why more TMA people do not participate in professional boxing. They are not trained to follow the rules required to be in these competitions.

I maybe off base, but I previously mentioned I had spared against people in styles that were not mine, and I learned an awful lot that way. However there was one I refused to spare, Sports TDK. This was not because I felt they were better or that I was better it was because after being invited and getting there I was hit with a set of sports TDK rules that I was to follow in order to spare. I do not know those rules, I did not train by those rules, I did not nor have I ever thought of Martial Arts by those rules. As a matter of fact I never really applied rules to MA sparing at all, and yes I have been hurt.

This could have something to do with why there are few or no TMA in UFC.

I still stand by the belief that MMA and TMA are both very good training and I honestly do not feel one is better than the other nor do I feel the need to prove it.

Now.... I’m out

 

[Flying Crane]

Anybody who says "MMA is no good on the streets" is a fool.

Anybody who says "TMA is no good on the street" is a fool.

Anybody who says "If you don't train like MMA, then your stuff is no good" is a fool.

Anybody who says "MMA is the only and best way to 'pressure test' your techniques, and if you don't do it this way you're a fool" is a fool.

Anybody who says "TMA doesn't need to 'pressure test' (in whatever way seems reasonable) techniques because they were battlefield tested once upon a time" is a fool.

Anybody who says "TMA has been proven utterly worthless by the UFC" is a fool.

In order to use your stuff, you need to train in a way to realistically develop those skills, but this can be accomplished in many ways, including BUT NOT LIMITED TO, MMA. TMA have many valid and effective ways to develop these skills also.

This "my style is better than your style" nonsense is really really stupid.

 

[Rich Parsons]

-I would argue their technique was flawed. There were even fewer rules early on. Groin strikes and small joint locks were allowed. There are rules, but they are as limited as fighter safety will allow. The MMA and BJJ curricullums I've been exposed to address the "dirty tactics" as dangers and techniques to use. The training method certainly can take those into account by using goggles and other safety gear already mentioned. Somebody that wants to use dirty tactics whether striking or grappling still needs an effective "delivery syatem" to use them. A cross is a better delivery system than a reverse punch to deliver a strike whether it is a fist or an eye gouge.

Yes, in the first one possible up to the third one, Groin shots and throat shots and eye shots and fish hooks were on the fine list. Meaning you could do them but you had to pay a fine. One or two of thsoe and unless you one the top prize and you would be in the hole on that one.

 

[RoninPimp]

#1 - it also means they were trained differently with different objectives, tactics and rule sets.

In an attempt to keep this friendly

After walking away form this I wonder if this could be a reason as to why more TMA people do not participate in the UFC, and it is also the same reason why more TMA people do not participate in professional boxing. They are not trained to follow the rules required to be in these competitions.

I maybe off base, but I previously mentioned I had spared against people in styles that were not mine, and I learned an awful lot that way. However there was one I refused to spare, Sports TDK. This was not because I felt they were better or that I was better it was because after being invited and getting there I was hit with a set of sports TDK rules that I was to follow in order to spare. I do not know those rules, I did not train by those rules, I did not nor have I ever thought of Martial Arts by those rules. As a matter of fact I never really applied rules to MA sparing at all, and yes I have been hurt.

This could have something to do with why there are few or no TMA in UFC.

I still stand by the belief that MMA and TMA are both very good training and I honestly do not feel one is better than the other nor do I feel the need to prove it.

Now.... I’m out

-Do you not understand that MMA has the least restrictive rule set of any other combative sport or any other style's sparring rules?

-It's pretty easy to surmise that TMA guys don't compete in MMA because they know, whether they admit it or not, that they would get beaten badly.

 

[Xue Sheng]

rule set .

implies rules, of which in TMA as I know it there are none.

-It's pretty easy to surmise that TMA guys don't compete in MMA because they know, whether they admit it or not, that they would get beaten badly.

okie dokie

bye now

 

[RoninPimp]

Is there any other way to train without severly hurting your training partners?

 

[Xue Sheng]

Actually I felt I answered them.

I have no idea why, what TMA styles were they.

Since I basically stated TMA and MMA are both good. Are they too deadly no. Possibly not interested and feel they have nothing to prove. But to deadly? no.

As for overwhelming proof, not my place to say. I am just stating that what was presented to me as overwhelming proof…isn’t.

Now how about answering my questions.

For the above.

Negative reps from anonymous people because I don't agree with them or they can’t refute what is being said, I can handle.

Have a nice day

 

[green meanie]

Anybody who says "MMA is no good on the streets" is a fool.

Anybody who says "TMA is no good on the street" is a fool.

Anybody who says "If you don't train like MMA, then your stuff is no good" is a fool.

Anybody who says "MMA is the only and best way to 'pressure test' your techniques, and if you don't do it this way you're a fool" is a fool.

Anybody who says "TMA doesn't need to 'pressure test' (in whatever way seems reasonable) techniques because they were battlefield tested once upon a time" is a fool.

Anybody who says "TMA has been proven utterly worthless by the UFC" is a fool.

In order to use your stuff, you need to train in a way to realistically develop those skills, but this can be accomplished in many ways, including BUT NOT LIMITED TO, MMA. TMA have many valid and effective ways to develop these skills also.

This "my style is better than your style" nonsense is really really stupid.

Nicely put. :asian:

 

[SFC JeffJ]

Both sides of this argument have some valid points. Instead of arguing about them for the billionth time, how about learning from each other? Why can't we all get along?(sorry, couldn't resist)

Seriously though, has anyone seen this argument change anyones mind?

Jeff

 

[green meanie]

Seriously though, has anyone seen this argument change anyones mind? Jeff

Really now Jeff, show a little patience. We're only on page 6 after all... give it a little time.

 

[Robert Lee]

I tried to read over all the different listed posts on this subject. TMA MMA MA CMA ect. It all boils down to how you trained how you perform with what you do. The UFC Pride K 1 All have a good bunch of fighters. Sure rules apply But look as to why . Those people that get in the ring train hard at what they do and are used to being hit or being put on the ground having to defend under stress of a real application. M/A before the word traditional came into play. Was trained much more grueling then many train today. There was NO karate Do, Gung Fu Jujitsu Most all arts trained harder. But then life styles changed Many of the Arts went in to preserve type mode. Several arts have lost real application of hidden aspects with in some katas Because it was not handed down To but a few that have passed on. Many schools say they train for streets. But do not train for live application. And Many people who train M/A do not train it to a point to where they could get it working on the streets. JUST a few would fall into that area of training. A MM/A person would perform better on the streets better then many of the people who train at a dojo kwoon ect for what 3 hours a week. Most street fighters do not train at all. They just fight And a good street fighter can out fight alot of trained M/A people. Training M/A does not mean now you can fight. Fighting tells that well we can not just fight and fight. To come close you train a point of live resistive training. Its good to at least make some kind of contact and tap out training. That way you learn to apply. Kata has some good tools in it. BUT I have heard from several people over the years the old story in this kata you fighting 2 3 4 people. THATS not good instruction from there intructor. In a kata you are not fighting any body. You are solo training and each movement breaks down to a seperate application. Plus often is repeaterd for left and right defence counters. Then some dont relize they are being taught Hear something from behind and turn and defend. They just think they are turning. Boxing a good boxer can fight on the streets What I am saying Is What ever method a person trains If they train hard push there self to be as good as they can They can get there method working. The average Joe that trains M/A would not make it far on the streets in the ring or just any thing much that has to do with fighting. Not unless that person has a strong survival instinct And MM/A fighters they work very hard on getting in shape If most M/A schools pushed ther students that hard they would see a drop in enrollment. But those left would be the ones that really want what they train. Yes people get in the M/A for many reasons. And that is fine. Train the students for what they want Not what has became tradition You will find the few that want stronger skills and the ones that want less. 2 types of classes Remember fighting is not so much the style or method its the person that does it that makes it his. All styles are MM/A if you research your art

 

[Bob Hubbard]

What's the difference between doing a kata, and working reps on a bag or pad?
Very little IMO. In both you are working to learn and fine tune a technique. Is a boxers shadow boxing, really all that different than solo form practice? I don't think so.

 

[Edmund BlackAdder]

I'm curious... What *is* your style? Is it based upon anything currently in existence or formulated through your own bare-knuckle experience?

Respects!

I have no style, as I see all arts as one. I feel I can learn as much from Taijiquan as I can "reality based" people like Hoch, as well as cage fighters and pro boxers. I believe in ending a fight fast, efficiently and with as little effort and injury to self as possible. Spending time trying to close with someone, take them down, cuddle and tap em, in my opinion is inefficient when I have a perfectly good pipe, bat, broomstick or blade. Give the fact that I am more likely to be attacked by a group, than an individual, and weapon weilding ones at that, fantasizing that the moves I learned watching the last UFC PPV will save my *** in the street seems to me to be poor form.

I find the best technique is no technique. Meaning, that I have avoided the confrontation, intact. I see no reason to seek out confrontation, to "test" my skills against a crippling set of fantasy safety rules, or put myself in real danger just so I can brag to a bunch of braindead children who wet themselves in mudpits about how "hardcore" they are.

I see NHB for what it is. A sport. A fun one to watch, a fun one to play in, and one that is as "real" as the WWE.

That is my "Style". The style of no style, just whatever works at that moment, that second.

:asian:

 

[Edmund BlackAdder]

Ronin - You say your training works on the street?

That is prepares you for those situations?

How do you deal with the simple fact that it ignores the stated facts that the majority (60-75%) of confrontations will be with armed groups with no rules, when your training is all 1-on-1 in a safe controled environment?

How many real street fights have you been in?

The last fight I was in was over 10 years ago. I've managed to avoid physical confrontations since then, despite being in bars with bike gangs, seedy neighborhoods, and a nasty habit of taking 2am strolls through my local park during the warm weather.