The "Reality" of UFC/NHB fighting, pressure testing sports moves, and the Real World.

[Rich Parsons]

I believe quality TMA training will better equip you for a wider range of confrontations. Note, I said Quality training. Training under some bozo who doesn't understand the dance steps means you're just dancing. A solid instructor can take you alot farther. Case in point: I thought tai chi was just "stretching for oldies", until I started talking with a guy who explained the throws, joint destructions, and other serious stuff that's buried in there. Unfortunately, it's hard to find those nuggets of intel in a world full of "microwave popcorn fu" (You know, black belt in 10 minutes or you get it free guys?) I've had similar discussions with CMA and Kenpo guys. Some of them "get it", and others just go through the motions. You have to find the guys who understand why, not just the parrots. (Too many out there, in all styles IMO).

The MMA attitude has some pluses. After all, it's hard to outrun 20 screaming gangbangers when you're sucking air from step 1. Plus, if you look like you can bench a small nation...it tends to intimidate, which always is a good deterrent.

MT M&G Info. Under construction, but theres video from last year in the video gallery.

While at work, a woman was watching a Tai Chi tape. She knwe I was into Martial Arts and asked if I could do this? I told her I could not move that slow yet. I am still learning. I then went on to explain the destruction or application of each technique being demonstrated. She said, "NO!, it is not conbative, it is for stretching and better health." My reply was along the lines of, Yes that may be the way the instructor is teaching it. But here is also the Yang to the Yin that is being taught.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

People are told that Tai Chi is for health only. Thankfully, one of my clients is a certified Yang Chen Fu center, and they go deeper than just the dance steps.

 

[bushidomartialarts]

tai chi is an excellent illustration of the crux of this thread...

tai chi is a potentially deadly art. in some ways more destructive than most.

the way tai chi is taught in america, and the way it's usually trained, it focuses on meditation, stretching and relaxation. very few tai chi practitioners gain any combative ability from training.

if you were to train for combat using tai chi concepts and techniques, you'd wind up seriously dangerous.

the mma/tma question brought up in this thread can be addressed in the same way. it's the method of training, not the style you train in.

 

[FearlessFreep]

One thing that occurs to me is that at various times, our society or culture tends to view the pat in different ways. Sometimes 'old' is associated with 'classic', 'proven', 'venerable' and 'new' is suspect, ubproven, a fad. At other times we view 'old' as 'outdated', 'obsolete', and 'new' is 'modern', 'scientific', 'progressive'

I wonder how that colors our view of martial arts?

I suspect that ones view of TMA vs MMA is probably going to developed as much as a result of your own view of 'old' versus 'new', which often seems to be at leas partially product of the culture at large, rather than any drect meaningful difference in effetiveness between the old and the new

 

[RoninPimp]

Hence your arguements about pressure testing. Right?

So if a TMA such as a FMA used pressure tests not point sparring, used some hand pads to avoid breaking skin to bad, and mixed it up, would that also justify your point?

Yet, I would think you might conceed that one or two or even a few in any given arts does this, but this is not what you have seen on the whole or on the average. Correct?

-The Dog Brothers do just that. And I guess I could agree to that. It seems athough few TMA guys do that.

 

[cfr]

Thos post is almost up to 10 pages... and I just thought Id do my little part.

 

[RoninPimp]

I didn't say that. Understanding what is there, and being able to pull it off are 2 different things dude. Primo's also been training in Arnis for a lot longer than I. We also stayed within the 'safe' limits, so I wasn't allowed to bring a folding chair on the floor. LOL.

-So what was the point of your post then?

 

[RoninPimp]

I really don't know what to say to those speaking of Tai Chi as combat effective, except to LOL. Do any Tai Chi guys anywhere on the planet "pressure test" anything they do? If not, its more hypothetical conjecture.

 

[cfr]

-The Dog Brothers do just that. And I guess I could agree to that. It seems athough few TMA guys do that.

I think we could probably all agree that the Dog Brothers are far more the exception than the rule. Perhaps one tenth of 1 percent trains like that.

Now I'll save another arguement: I have no overwhelming proof, no real scentific data or analysis to speak of, I just pulled those numbers outta my rear.

 

[Robert Lee]

I guess while fighting on the streets be it TMA or MMA its just about fighting that counts. If you are better that day and walk away not harmed and the other person you fought did not over take you then you did something that worked. We can sit around and say this is better and that is not forever. But the old saying action is stronger then words means just that. Words tells view points action shows what happens. So only then will it matter what works or not. Because in fighting there is no real style just method. And performance. And thats the person That time that day. no magic bullet But i will say those that prepare better for action perform better in action.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

-So what was the point of your post then?

You asked questions, and made false assumptions. I corrected them.
That was the point.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

I really don't know what to say to those speaking of Tai Chi as combat effective, except to LOL. Do any Tai Chi guys anywhere on the planet "pressure test" anything they do? If not, its more hypothetical conjecture.

And again, you show your bias and limitations.

 

[Edmund BlackAdder]

Oy vey!

Give it up folks.

Trying to convince RP that anything outside the realm of Gracie and Shamrock worship land is real is as effective as trying to convince a fish that water is dry. His mind is like a ball of lead. Full and dense. To him and his ilk, only the cage matters, only the wizdom of the pit of mud and it's bog monsters counts. The only way he'll change his mind is if Mr Miyagi shows up and kicks his ***, preferably in a ring, and safe in a cage with a rule book, a ref and a rather hot ring girl. Nothing else can matter, for to think outside the ring will cause his head to explode.

I'll be blunt as it's worth the vacation:
Ronin, not everything can or should be "tested". To believe so that it has to be tested, and that such narrow parameter tests somehow prove effectiveness, is the act of an absolute moron. A dunderhead, a clueless pratt, an absolute and total git! All of which, I see you and your ilk as.

You have repeatedly and very clearly shown that you lack experience, understanding and familiarity with the traditional arts. You rely instead on tired and safe unsupportable positions. You aren't a fighter, you aren't a martial artist. You are a sport guy, trying to argue with people who in a real fight would destroy you, because you continue to fail to understand, you cannot test for reality. It's a pass-fail event.

To those who understood where I was going, and why, the drinks are on me.
To those who don't get it, can't take the time, or like Ronin there are too stupid to comprehend, I've got 2 words for you.
:2xBird2:

To everyone else, the secret is to bang the rocks together folks.
Just be sure it's allowed by the rule book, or the ref isn't watching you.
Hate to get DQ'ed in a street fight.



J.O.B. S.Q.U.A.D. - Cuz Kissing *** isn't in our Profile!
1.2.3. for life baby! Whooooo!

(In all seriousness, isn't that the form of communication you're more familiar with? You know, "sewer-style"? I mean, I did leave off the swearing, so it does lose a bit in the translation, but I think I'm on your level here. Well, other than the rats and occational bit of used TP.)

 

[Rook]

This has been an interesting thread and one that has had more faulty logic than any I have ever been on.

First, let me note that I'm not particularly beholden to either the TMA or MMA camps, as I participate in a modernized karate system that doesn't much resemble either.

The idea of classifying entire arts as "works" or "doesn't work" strikes me as absurd. Rather, each one worked for the founders under the conditions they found themselves in and has been (generally) blindly followed by legions of monkeys that believe they know the "one true way." This applies for all arts, including all TMAs, MMA, MMA derivatives, RBSD arts etc.

The "founders" of MMA, Shamrock often cited in their first rank, found themselves in 1 on 1 unarmed combat in a limited ruleset. They adapted.

The founders of JJJ found themselves in battle with people with wood-laminate armor with swords and rocks in Japan. They adapted.

CMA is an enormously diverse category. Let me use Tai Chi as an example. Chen Tai Chi was started by a bodyguard who adapted to his situation. Yang Tai Chi showed up when Chen's tactics were adapted by Yang Lu Chan, who was much more interested in challenge matches than bodyguard work. Health Tai Chi showed up when people were more interested in health benefits than challenge matches or bodyguard work. And so on.

The fact that each of these styles became respected in its own arena, under specific sets of requirements and assumptions doesn't mean that they don't work outside those envirments, but rather that they have to be changed or adapted to whatever envirnment you find yourself in.

The excessive identification with heros of your art makes progress difficult - this thread less than some, but the fact that an art was practiced by Japanese samurai (JJJ), Spetz (Systema), or some great hero, be he named Shamrock, Lee, Kimura, Gracie, Miyagi, Yang, Sun, or any other of the innumerable masters of the past and present doesn't mean that all practitioners absorb their abilities upon signing up for MMA, JKD, Judo, BJJ, karate or tai chi. Their abilities are not what matters - your abilities decide what will work for you... so finding the toughest man in history and deciding to follow him doesn't make for the best results, even if his situation were the same as yours. Your own capabilities may be very different.

The terms "the street" or "the real world" encompass much too large of areas to be tested - we have to test to a given situation. Each art has, at some point, done that to its own situation. That does not guarantee it would work in the situation you personally might face in a self defense incident.

Lastly, I see no evidence to suggest that TMA gives any greater situational awareness than MMA - the implication that TMA practitioners are somehow better at seeing a street attack comin than MMA practitioners is somewhat absurd.

 

[Rook]

Oh, the MMA ruleset... I was going to mention that. The current UFC ruleset is not the only set of conditions for which MMA fighters train. UFC 1 and 2 had only biting and eyegouging disallowed - Finnfight still operates that way.

Incidentally, the AFC (Absolute Fighting Championship) has been held I believe three times in Russia - and it has no referee stoppages or limits on techniques (that includes allowing eyegouges, throat strikes and groin attacks). It had many traditional fighters. The current champion is Igor Vovchanchyn - a kickboxer turned MMA fighter who also fights in PRIDE. The fact that it is dominated, without much in the way of rules, by an MMA fighter and not a CMA fighter eyegouging people should tell us something about the envirnment too.

 

[RoninPimp]

And again, you show your bias and limitations.

-That doesn't change the fact that untested techniques are hypothetical. And I should just take your word for their usefulness?

 

[RoninPimp]

Oy vey!

Give it up folks.

Trying to convince RP that anything outside the realm of Gracie and Shamrock worship land is real is as effective as trying to convince a fish that water is dry. His mind is like a ball of lead. Full and dense. To him and his ilk, only the cage matters, only the wizdom of the pit of mud and it's bog monsters counts. The only way he'll change his mind is if Mr Miyagi shows up and kicks his ***, preferably in a ring, and safe in a cage with a rule book, a ref and a rather hot ring girl. Nothing else can matter, for to think outside the ring will cause his head to explode.

I'll be blunt as it's worth the vacation:
Ronin, not everything can or should be "tested". To believe so that it has to be tested, and that such narrow parameter tests somehow prove effectiveness, is the act of an absolute moron. A dunderhead, a clueless pratt, an absolute and total git! All of which, I see you and your ilk as.

You have repeatedly and very clearly shown that you lack experience, understanding and familiarity with the traditional arts. You rely instead on tired and safe unsupportable positions. You aren't a fighter, you aren't a martial artist. You are a sport guy, trying to argue with people who in a real fight would destroy you, because you continue to fail to understand, you cannot test for reality. It's a pass-fail event.

To those who understood where I was going, and why, the drinks are on me.
To those who don't get it, can't take the time, or like Ronin there are too stupid to comprehend, I've got 2 words for you.
:2xBird2:

To everyone else, the secret is to bang the rocks together folks.
Just be sure it's allowed by the rule book, or the ref isn't watching you.
Hate to get DQ'ed in a street fight.



J.O.B. S.Q.U.A.D. - Cuz Kissing *** isn't in our Profile!
1.2.3. for life baby! Whooooo!

(In all seriousness, isn't that the form of communication you're more familiar with? You know, "sewer-style"? I mean, I did leave off the swearing, so it does lose a bit in the translation, but I think I'm on your level here. Well, other than the rats and occational bit of used TP.)

-Your strawmen and insults prove nothing. I though this forum didn't allow insults like this and was "above" it? Or does that only apply to the "sport guys"?

 

[Rook]

What precisely has possessed people to believe that MMA stops working when they leave the cage/ring?

I would agree that TMA may be more aligned to goals other than survival in the ring, but that doesn't mean that MMA doesn't work, that their training is ineffectual or that their fighters are not capable of fighting outside the ring.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

-That doesn't change the fact that untested techniques are hypothetical. And I should just take your word for their usefulness?

If you knew much of the back history of the traditional arts, you would find ample evidence of their effectiveness.

A quick search turned up this: http://www.internaldamagetaichi.com/
Seems more akin to a fighting art that a senior moment to me.

Quoting TomMarker at SDF:

Tai Chi is generally broken down into four components.
1. Shuai Chiou (throwing techniques)
2. Chin Na (joint locking techniques)
3. Ti (Hand)
4. Da (Foot)

Go talk to a karate/tkd/tsd guy (who is worth a ****) and he will tell you that the forms/kata/hyungs are composed of:
1. Throwing techniques.
2. Locking techniques.
3. Hand techniques.
4. Foot techniques.

and then there is http://www.chung-hua.com/taichicombat.html which gives a bit more info on how it is used as a combat art.

Then again, they don't teach this down at the local health club or community center.

 

[Edmund BlackAdder]

What precisely has possessed people to believe that MMA stops working when they leave the cage/ring?

I would agree that TMA may be more aligned to goals other than survival in the ring, but that doesn't mean that MMA doesn't work, that their training is ineffectual or that their fighters are not capable of fighting outside the ring.

The simple fact that training for competition is not the same as training for battle. Street fights and war have no rounds, no time outs, no DQ, no ref and rarely any rules.

The NHB fighter may have better cardio, better pain resistance and tolerance, and more strength. He needs it, because, like a boxer, he must withstand a number of punishing blows while getting into postition to try and twist or choke someone into submission. He isn't worrying about the guy pulling a blade, or someone hitting him from behind with a bottle. Its 1-on-1, unarmed.

Next time you roll, do it 2 on 1. Add in a pair of rubber (ie safe) training blades. It changes things. Considering that almost 100% of competitions are unarmed, and over 60% of street confrontations are armed, that makes a difference. All the cardio and all the endurance in the world isn't going to save you if it's a 3 on 1, and they're packing heat. The only thing you'll be packing is your shorts. Mike Tyson's a bad ***, but he isn't worrying about Hollyfield pulling a glock in the 3rd round. So I doubt he trains for that situation.

Show me a NHB/UFC training course that includes weapon use and disarms, street smart tactics, etc, and I might change my attitude.