The rant thread

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

As in, "could you explain?"

 

[stephen]

As in, "could you explain?"

I guess for me it's a bit like the difference between going to a physics class and interning with a physicist.

One is a teacher and the other a mentor.

A teacher concentrates on imparting his existing knowledge to the student as his main goal. Odds are, he's not getting better himself. In fact, his knowledge and ability is probably decaying to the level of his students.

The mentor wants to get you up to speed as quickly as possible so you can help out with the research. In other words, so that you can make him better. He will continue to improve, and now that he has good assistants he can improve at a faster rate than before - which will cause his assistants to improve (they'll have a better model!) - which will enable him to improve - etc...

Now it's true that the mentor may ignore or fire someone because it's clear that there's no way they'll ever be a good physicists (or maybe they don't work hard enough). It's not for everyone after all! But them are the breaks. To spend too much effort with them is a disservice to those who are busting their asses trying to keep up.

So I show those who come to my classes how to improve (well, IMO anyway) so that they can help me improve by forcing me to up my game constantly.

So that's my analogy. My personal experience is that I feel like my personal progress is aided to a much higher degree by those people who have the "I'm in it for myself" mentality. Therefore those are the shidoshi who I tend to train with and emulate.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

First, let me state up front that I decided for myself long ago that I *REALLY* don't want to teach. I want absolutely no responsibility at all for the prolonged longevity of Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu. Call me immature, cynical, bitter or whatever, but I seriously do not want any part of it (someone may infer that this probably has something to do with the unlikelyhood of my ever having the possibility to sit for the godan test, well, no comment on that one).

Having said that, I also believe that no one truly trains only for him/herself. If that really were the case, they wouldn't get very well along with the people around them.

More will follow in a while.

 

[stephen]

First, let me state up front that I decided for myself long ago that I *REALLY* don't want to teach.

To be honest, I'm not a fan of teaching. I wish I were able to be back in my teacher's dojo. However, it's just not possible as I now live 5000 miles away!

I want absolutely no responsibility at all for the prolonged longevity of Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu.

Neither do I. Convienently, neither of us have that responsibility. I think that is Soke's alone.

Call me immature, cynical, bitter or whatever, but I seriously do not want any part of it (someone may infer that this probably has something to do with the unlikelyhood of my ever having the possibility to sit for the godan test, well, no comment on that one).

Why would it have something to do with the godan test? I mean, why would you not be able to sit it?

Having said that, I also believe that no one truly trains only for him/herself. If that really were the case, they wouldn't get very well along with the people around them.

I find that the dojo where everyone is training 'for themselves' tend to have more friendly dynamics. People seem to understand that we're all in this together and we need to help each other so that we can better ourselves. In other words, we're all working on the same project.

I go to work for myself. I really really like it, but I don't think I'd do it if I weren't paid. That being said, my office is a very friendly environment where we all get along pretty well.

 

[jks9199]

First, let me state up front that I decided for myself long ago that I *REALLY* don't want to teach. I want absolutely no responsibility at all for the prolonged longevity of Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu. Call me immature, cynical, bitter or whatever, but I seriously do not want any part of it (someone may infer that this probably has something to do with the unlikelyhood of my ever having the possibility to sit for the godan test, well, no comment on that one).

Having said that, I also believe that no one truly trains only for him/herself. If that really were the case, they wouldn't get very well along with the people around them.

More will follow in a while.

I've got a problem with the way you phrase this. Senior students have a responsibility to repay the help they were given when they started, and continue to receive from their own seniors. That doesn't mean that everyone has to run a class or training group. Nor does it mean that passing on the art and ensuring that there's a "next generation" to follow you. A significant part of that repayment is training hard and well. But, another part is that everyone should be willing and ready, when asked by the instructor, to share what they've learned and assist new students. That's a form of teaching. So is working with your training partner to see that you both understand the exercise you're working. And it's recognizing that, in a formal style, we all have a responsibility to the group and style as a whole.

Now, I strongly suspect that you do all of this

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

To be honest, I'm not a fan of teaching. I wish I were able to be back in my teacher's dojo. However, it's just not possible as I now live 5000 miles away!

Well, I'm spoiled.

Neither do I. Convienently, neither of us have that responsibility. I think that is Soke's alone.

I know that what I'm about to say here may be considered extremely rude, and to that I apologize, because I don't want to go through that discussion again.

But not for long.

Why would it have something to do with the godan test? I mean, why would you not be able to sit it?

Let's just say that I think and worry too much. Besides, if Hatsumi ordered a Western shihan to do the test with me, I'd walk out and quit training that instant. No kidding on that one.

I find that the dojo where everyone is training 'for themselves' tend to have more friendly dynamics.

Funny, my experience is the exact opposite. To keep us from delving to deep into semantics, why don't we just say that it depends on how you look at it.

I go to work for myself. I really really like it, but I don't think I'd do it if I weren't paid. That being said, my office is a very friendly environment where we all get along pretty well.

My two bosses are an evil pre-school teacher and a stereotypical Mediterranian. :ultracool The only ones I really have to talk to are them, the perps and the cops.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Senior students have a responsibility to repay the help they were given when they started, and continue to receive from their own seniors.

I've made it very clear that if I'm given any kind of responsibility where I train, I'm going to abuse it. So far, everyone's happy and satisfied with that arrangement.

But, another part is that everyone should be willing and ready, when asked by the instructor, to share what they've learned and assist new students.

Except if they're not suited to do so.

Now, I strongly suspect that you do all of this

Nope.

 

[Bigshadow]

I've made it very clear that if I'm given any kind of responsibility where I train, I'm going to abuse it.

We all have our own demons and obstacles in our training that we have to fight and overcome to move to the next level. I certainly have my share.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

So far, everyone's happy and satisfied with that arrangement.

:wavey:

 

[jks9199]

Quote:
Originally Posted by jks9199
Now, I strongly suspect that you do all of this


Nope.

Well... I seem to have gotten interrupted mid-thought, and I don't know exactly where I was going... but I think it was something along these lines:

I suspect that you do work with your partners and even offer advice and guidance to new students; you may not think of it as teaching them, but you are.

Now... to expand in response to "NOPE."

Whether you like it or not, as a student, you DO teach others. You teach partners as you work with them; you teach new students who see your movement and your technique, and copy it. You teach people when you share your views of training here. And, you're really cheating yourself if you never take the advantage to help someone begin their journey. When you teach something, you find details and you learn more about it than when you simply do it. Even a mediocre teacher learns more from teaching than the student!

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

I suspect that you do work with your partners

Yes.

and even offer advice and guidance to new students;

No.

you teach new students who see your movement and your technique, and copy it.

No. They don't look at me, and they shouldn't.

You teach people when you share your views of training here.

No, not really.

And, you're really cheating yourself if you never take the advantage to help someone begin their journey.

Be that as it may, I don't want to and I don't have to.

Even a mediocre teacher learns more from teaching than the student!

Mediocre teachers are the root of most of the problems that haunt the Bujinkan today.

 

[stephen]

Mediocre teachers are the root of most of the problems that haunt the Bujinkan today.

I'm not sure I have this opinion, but one could also make the argument, using the usual logic that most who disparage the Bujinkan use, that the real problem (if there is one, which, again, I don't really think there is) is mediocre students.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

I'm not sure I have this opinion, but one could also make the argument, using the usual logic that most who disparage the Bujinkan use, that the real problem (if there is one, which, again, I don't really think there is) is mediocre students.

In my world, good teachers keep mediocre students away. Yes, I'm a fascist.

 

[stephen]

In my world, good teachers keep mediocre students away. Yes, I'm a fascist.

In my world, good students think for themselves and find good teachers - and just don't care about the mediocre teachers or students.

Yes, I'm an anarchist.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

In my world, good students think for themselves and find good teachers - and just don't care about the mediocre teachers or students.

Yes, I'm an anarchist.

The only reason you don't kill yourself for having to get out of bed half past six in the morning and go to school for nearly a decade or more is because you don't have anything else to compare that lifestyle with. Good students in my world are those who have various points of reference - which you don't until you've trained around a bit.

A big part of the Bujinkan is based around the assumption that people are reasonable individuals. And that assumption...well, let's just say that it turns both you and I into distant relatives of horses.

 

[stephen]

A big part of the Bujinkan is based around the assumption that people are reasonable individuals. And that assumption...well, let's just say that it turns both you and I into distant relatives of horses.

A big part of society is based on the assumption that people are reasonable. Some are, some aren't, but the more free people are the more freedom they have to be as bad or good as they want.

Societies which have less frictions involved in movements between socal circles tend to have more innovation and better economic success. They also can have some people fall through the cracks. But, since the Bujinkan is not a social welfare outreach program, that's probably okay.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

A big part of society is based on the assumption that people are reasonable. Some are, some aren't, but the more free people are the more freedom they have to be as bad or good as they want.

As I've said before, in the case of the Bujinkan I personally think we've had way too much freedom on our hands. This is nothing I have the means to affect myself.

Societies which have less frictions involved in movements between socal circles tend to have more innovation and better economic success.

The key word here being economic success...:ultracool no seriously, I'm not going to head down that road again.

They also can have some people fall through the cracks.

It doesn't have to be that way, plain and simple.

But, since the Bujinkan is not a social welfare outreach program, that's probably okay.

It's NOT ok, says me teeming with righteous indignation.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

I was going to start this with a long rant with its basis in my own training regime. Instead I'm just going to say this - I cannot understand why people are so eager to practice on their own without supervision.

Every single training at my home dojo I make errors I wouldn't even have known about if I hadn't had them pointed out to me. I don't even want to think about what it would be like if I'd had those faults ingrained in me from training by myself.

 

[MrFunnieman]

I'm not sure I have this opinion, but one could also make the argument, using the usual logic that most who disparage the Bujinkan use, that the real problem (if there is one, which, again, I don't really think there is) is mediocre students.

Hey Fellas,

It's called the bell curve. The majority of students statistically will be mediocre. A few good students, a few bad students and whole lot in the middle.

I heard somthing funny the other day, in the US 50% (or so) of marriages end in divorce. If you take a room full of newlyweds and ask then to raise their hand if they think they will be divorced, nobody in the room will raise their hands, statistically though have the room will get divorces. A hicup of reality. I also heard that people will come into a law office wanting to write a will if they die. Guess what... there are no ifs.

Why do I bring this up? What's the chances that "we" are in the top ten percent of students? It was a blow to the ego, but I realized where I stand. Mediocre students make up the bulk of the Bujinkan or any other martial art for that matter. It's the nature of the beast.

 

[stephen]

I was going to start this with a long rant with its basis in my own training regime. Instead I'm just going to say this - I cannot understand why people are so eager to practice on their own without supervision.

Every single training at my home dojo I make errors I wouldn't even have known about if I hadn't had them pointed out to me. I don't even want to think about what it would be like if I'd had those faults ingrained in me from training by myself.

I am not a Buddhist, at least not in any identifiable form. So if someone were to give me a govenment form, I wouldn't check "Buddhist". However, I really enjoy the writings of a guy named Brad Warner.

He's a regular American guy who moved to Japan (to work in Godzilla and Ultraman type movies) and now writes a bit about Buddhism.

Anyway the point:

I was reading some of his old blog entries and I came upon this bit:

http://hardcorezen.blogspot.com/2006/04/abuse-of-power-in-zen.html

A good Zen teacher will toss the power you attempt to hand him right back at you like a hot potato. For the student this is extremely frustrating. When it happened to me, I hated it. Hated it. Wanted desprately to find someone who would take my power from me, so I could relax and let him take the blame for everything. I mean, how can you possibly know if you are progressing unless your teacher tells you you're progressing? How indeed? But the idea of "progress" is one of the things you need to give up. You will never progress. Not one bit. You will never reach Enlightenment. And if you do, you can be sure it's a scam.

A lot of Brad's writings have really hit home and allowed me to hone my understandiing of training. I also have found that his books (which are very entertaining reads) gave me an interesting window on a component of Japanese culture that helped me to understand some of the context (that is: Japanese culture not Buddhism) for this Japanese organization called "Bujinkan".