The Proper Horse Stance?

[Wing Woo Gar]

When you bend your legs and then straight your legs, your body will move toward the direction that your feet are point to. If your use

1. Outward horse (such as the Sumo stance) - left foot point to NW and right foot point NE,
1. Inward horse (such as the WC stance) - left foot point to NE and right foot point NW,

when your straight your legs, your body will move toward N, but pressure will be put on both of your knees. In the long run, this will damage your knee joints.

If you use either Sumo stance or WC stance to drill your hip throw, you will definitely destroy your both knee joints.

This is one example of bad stance. It's not clear which direction that he wants his power to generate into.

View attachment 27367

I disagree. The knee is not a load bearing instrument. the thigh carries the weight. If you weight the knee, you will damage it. Thus, grabbing or tightening the knee joint is the cause. Try folding the hip without tucking or

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

I disagree. The knee is not a load bearing instrument. the thigh carries the weight. If you weight the knee, you will damage it. Thus, grabbing or tightening the knee joint is the cause. Try folding the hip without tucking or

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

All the stance work takes time and patience. I am continuously working to improve my mobility from a low deep horse stance. It isn’t useful if you can’t move and stay down. I use it to train. Sometimes the secrets are simply right in front of me and I still take years to grasp the foundations I “learned“ 25 years or more ago.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Stances are not created for aesthetic reasons in the Traditional Chinese Arts, and that includes the Horse Stance. The position of the body in its entirety constitutes posture, not just the feet. The alignment of the feet properly has a profound impact on available upper body strength, and an improper Horse Stance can demonstrably be shown to take away available upper body strength in the arms as well as compromise the vertical plane of the structure.

Well said.

 

[Doc]

That is because Sifu Woo and EP had a falling out over a book deal.

To be more specific, some of the historical information in the book Secrets of Chinese Karate was information shared with Ed Parker by Sifu Woo. Sifu Woo felt Mr. Parker should have given him credit for that information in the book. To suggest "they had a falling out over a book deal" tends to insinuate a money issue of sorts rather than a misunderstanding. To be fair the information in the book came from a variety of sources, not the least was from Sifu Ark Wong as well as others. The point is as Mr. Parker gathered anecdotal info for the book, he didn't provide "credit" to any of his sources but he also never claimed the information was his exclusively either. It is unfortunate this misunderstanding caused a rift between the two, but it was Mr. Parker's thirst and the quest for information from any and all sources that saw him do this constantly as any scientist would. Sifu Ark Wong never had an issue but could just as easily taken the same road as Sifu Wong. Neither man was right or wrong, but men, friends often miscommunicate and sometimes disagree on things. Both good people and great martial artists.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

To be more specific, some of the historical information in the book Secrets of Chinese Karate was information shared with Ed Parker by Sifu Woo. Sifu Woo felt Mr. Parker should have given him credit for that information in the book. To suggest "they had a falling out over a book deal" tends to insinuate a money issue of sorts rather than a misunderstanding. To be fair the information in the book came from a variety of sources, not the least was from Sifu Ark Wong as well as others. The point is as Mr. Parker gathered anecdotal info for the book, he didn't provide "credit" to any of his sources but he also never claimed the information was his exclusively either. It is unfortunate this misunderstanding caused a rift between the two, but it was Mr. Parker's thirst and the quest for information from any and all sources that saw him do this constantly as any scientist would. Sifu Ark Wong never had an issue but could just as easily taken the same road as Sifu Wong. Neither man was right or wrong, but men, friends often miscommunicate and sometimes disagree on things. Both good people and great martial artists.

Well said. I know more about it from Sifu Woo’s and Simo eve’s stories but those aren’t mine to tell. I only left it at that because I am not here to cause trouble or offend anyone. There was indeed a money element as well as a lack of credit given. Sifu Woo was bitter about it even in his late eighties. Simo was particularly critical of Parker.

 

[Oily Dragon]

WC stance to drill your hip throw, you will definitely destroy your both knee joints.

The Yi Gi Kim Yeurng Ma Bo should never, ever be used in any drills that involve movement below the waist. The adduction stance is solely for strengthening the gwot region, which is why it's also considered a "horse stance" of a different color. Har har har.

 

[Oily Dragon]

So my question is why, other than for esthetic reasons, is the traditional stance with forward-pointing feet so emphasized in some arts? Is there really any functional reason?

Sei ping dai ma bo, 四平大馬步, which means 4 Great Parallels Horse, is the classic Shaolin horse stance. The general idea is that by creating 4 parallels, you are providing a reference framework for the body. Ideally this means feet are parallel to each other, lower leg are parallel to each other, upper leg parallel to the ground (or close) and waist and upper body parallel to the lower legs and feet. It's simply harder to do than having your feet fanned outward, and hard is what kung fu is for.

Obviously many people will not be able to do this comfortably without training which involves both strengthening the legs as well as learning to relax the upper body. Or possibly not at all if they lack range of motion from body type, disease, whatever.

But that "perfect" horse stance is the one from Shaolin monastery that influenced many other arts. The Wing Chun adduction stance is, in a way, the reverse of the 4 parallels, which is also why in a lot of Shaolin stancework, these two stances are combined with transitions such as in the Southern Iron Wire, as a way of exercising all the leg muscles together. Sitting in these stances for long periods of time is for beginners, because advanced practicioners already have the endurance to hold them for long periods. Time is better spent moving dynamically between the stances, preferably with a lot of weight packed on, whether that's iron palm bags, brass rings, or even jugs of water. It all works wonders.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Sei ping dai ma bo, 四平大馬步, which means 4 Great Parallels Horse, is the classic Shaolin horse stance. The general idea is that by creating 4 parallels, you are providing a reference framework for the body. Ideally this means feet are parallel to each other, lower leg are parallel to each other, upper leg parallel to the ground (or close) and waist and upper body parallel to the lower legs and feet. It's simply harder to do than having your feet fanned outward, and hard is what kung fu is for.

Obviously many people will not be able to do this comfortably without training which involves both strengthening the legs as well as learning to relax the upper body. Or possibly not at all if they lack range of motion from body type, disease, whatever.

But that "perfect" horse stance is the one from Shaolin monastery that influenced many other arts. The Wing Chun adduction stance is, in a way, the reverse of the 4 parallels, which is also why in a lot of Shaolin stancework, these two stances are combined with transitions such as in the Southern Iron Wire, as a way of exercising all the leg muscles together. Sitting in these stances for long periods of time is for beginners, because advanced practicioners already have the endurance to hold them for long periods. Time is better spent moving dynamically between the stances, preferably with a lot of weight packed on, whether that's iron palm bags, brass rings, or even jugs of water. It all works wonders.

Excellent articulation

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

The Yi Gi Kim Yeurng Ma Bo should never, ever be used in any drills that involve movement below the waist. The adduction stance is solely for strengthening the gwot region, which is why it's also considered a "horse stance" of a different color. Har har har.

This is true in most cases. in Sifu Woo and Sifu Gale’s kwoon the floor is waxed and polished concrete and we wear cotton soled slippers. This makes for very slippery conditions. It is a training method. Under supervision and after years of hard work one can learn to move the low horse with speed and tremendous torque. We use it for training. It is not a “technique”. Not everyone can or will be able to do it for myriad reasons. Additionally, training kicks this way helps teach people not to “throw” the kicking leg, because kicking higher or harder than you can control will end you on your butt on a hard floor. Now before all you armchair quarterbacks go off about your opinions on this, These are James Wing Woo’s methods, not something I heard or made up. I trained this way, on these floors for over 25 years, it has changed me and my body. It is our primary tool. Sifu Woo had a teacher in 1930s Canton that taught this way, they used cooking oil on stone floor to the same effect.

 

[Doc]

Well said. I know more about it from Sifu Woo’s and Simo eve’s stories but those aren’t mine to tell. I only left it at that because I am not here to cause trouble or offend anyone. There was indeed a money element as well as a lack of credit given. Sifu Woo was bitter about it even in his late eighties. Simo was particularly critical of Parker.

Of course, you and I are only "outsiders" in the sense we only know of the impressions and stories told to us and only the two men involved really know. I respected both of them tremendously and in the end "mom and dad got a divorce that had nothing to do with us kids." It was between them and whatever happened never tarnished these great men or their contributions.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Of course, you and I are only "outsiders" in the sense we only know of the impressions and stories told to us and only the two men involved really know. I respected both of them tremendously and in the end "mom and dad got a divorce that had nothing to do with us kids." It was between them and whatever happened never tarnished these great men or their contributions.

You have a gift for writing and expression. Well put.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Of course, you and I are only "outsiders" in the sense we only know of the impressions and stories told to us and only the two men involved really know. I respected both of them tremendously and in the end "mom and dad got a divorce that had nothing to do with us kids." It was between them and whatever happened never tarnished these great men or their contributions.

You obviously knew them both, did you train with them both? Pardon my ignorance, I don’t know your name or who you are. You seem to be very knowledgeable on them and in martial arts. Just curious.

 

[isshinryuronin]

Every style will have its own "proper" horse stance. What I think is more important is the use of the stance. It's not how a word is pronounced, but the meaning of the word that's important.

In most all styles of karate horse stance is with parallel feet, vertical and parallel lower legs. Stance width and thus height varies with style, the Japanese (and Chinese) ones usually wide and deep, the Okinawan styles usually not so much.

Beginners are drilled in the basic hand strikes while standing in a horse stance, body full on facing front; this used to lead the uninformed observer to think karate is not practical. This stance is not practical for fighting, IMO, but very practical for beginner's training reciprocating motion of the hands in punching or blocking as well as for hip action development. Strengthening the legs is also a benefit.

Kata forms were developed in Okinawa by authentic warriors and drilled for practicing effective combat techniques. But horse stance is not often seen in kata. This leads me to believe it was not thought of as a "fighting" stance. To this day, you hardly see it in sparring competitions.

The one form where it is highlighted is Naihanchi/Naifanchi (Tekki in Japanese Shotokan) which is derived from the Shuri-te branch of Okinawan karate. This form is famously illustrated in photos of Motobu Choki, Okinawa's fierce premier "down and dirty" fighter in the early 1900's. He likely learned it from "Bushi" (Warrior) Matsumura who served as a security agent/bodyguard for the king. Motobu thought naihanchi kata was one of the most important forms.

This begs the question: Why would two great karate masters and accomplished fighters find value in a form stressing the horse stance which most (?) of us would agree is not well suited for combat? These guys would not waste their time practicing something that's useless. There seems to be some disconnect here.

I think there is, indeed, a disconnect. The answer is there is more to the form than meets the eye. While the kata moves side to side in horse as if your back is against a wall, its "oyo" (advanced or hidden bunkai application) goes beyond the shown movement. Stance shifts with pivots and angles (as in other kata) give a new dimension to this static looking stance. These things were part of the oral tradition the masters passed on to their personal students.

Just as important, naihanchi is primarily a grappling kata (though many don't know that, grappling techniques having been de-emphasized in shotokan and other styles over the past century.) Horse stance gives the lateral stability needed to pull the opponent to the side. So while karate's horse stance may not be well suited for a slug fest or fancy kicking, it can have purpose beyond a beginner's practice stance.

Maybe CMA has other functions of horse stance?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Maybe CMA has other functions of horse stance?

- Hip throw
- Shoulder throw
- Embracing throw
- ...

 

[Flying Crane]

Beginners are drilled in the basic hand strikes while standing in a horse stance, body full on facing front; this used to lead the uninformed observer to think karate is not practical. This stance is not practical for fighting, IMO, but very practical for beginner's training reciprocating motion of the hands in punching or blocking as well as for hip action development. Strengthening the legs is also a benefit.
…
Maybe CMA has other functions of horse stance?

I can only speak to my experience with Tibetan White Crane, but we do not practice punches as you describe above, in a front-facing square horse. We do not do that at all in our training.

Instead, we use a rotational foundation, pivoting the torso from side-to-side while punching, developing power from the feet and driving that rotation through the legs. The square horse is not part of the movement. This exercise is also taxing on the legs and feet and helps develop strength.

We do use the square horse as a strength-building exercise, but not coupled with punching. Overall, within our system, the square horse does not get a lot of use. It is not non-existent, and in fact is featured predominantly in our five animals form, but otherwise is not prominent. I will confess that this required a pretty big change in mind-set for me when I began training in TWC, having come from a kenpo background where the square horse gets a lot more use. But I have found it to be a method that makes a lot of sense to me and is a good match for me.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Beginners are drilled in the basic hand strikes while standing in a horse stance,

The punch may start from a horse stance, but it won't end with a horse stance.

 

[dvcochran]

The punch may start from a horse stance, but it won't end with a horse stance.

Styles vary.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

The punch may start from a horse stance, but it won't end with a horse stance.

I don’t much care for the look of that, but styles do vary. Those punches and that stance don’t even resemble anything from the cma gyms I trained in. Your mileage may vary. That sort of thing will get you tossed on your head by any judoka student worth his salt.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I don’t much care for the look of that, but styles do vary. Those punches and that stance don’t even resemble anything from the cma gyms I trained in. Your mileage may vary. That sort of thing will get you tossed on your head by any judoka student worth his salt.

They are not training horse stance there. They are using horse stance to bend their legs, they then straight their legs for power generation.

It's a good example that stance is only a temporary body posture that is used to perform a certain function (such as power generation, hip throw, ...).