horse stance?

[monji112000]

Ali,

Timing is a abstract idea, it can be told in words. You can describe it, yet that doesn't mean the person completely understands and can reproduce what you have said in his actions. It takes many hours of practice, and correcting.
JMO and many others..

Size , and other natural abilities don't have a effect on the fundamental idea, but they have a major effect on the application. Sometimes they also effect the way you train. The application changes depending on the variables of the situation. For example, how you lop sao can change slightly if you are taller or shorter than the person. It may be more natural to lop sao pull up for a shorter person, in a fight with a much taller person. How can it change the way you train? Sometimes people who have more strength focus less on horse and more on something else. Because they can "muscle" a little more than someone else. Its not 100% the best idea, because it won't work if the person is stronger. The same goes for any natural attribute like speed coordination ect.. I am not saying its correct, but its a observation that all people do even without thinking about it. As a sifu I assume you notice things like that and try to correct them.


“Good wing chun is not about height and weight, good wing chun is based on positioning and sensitivity. “


Yes of course but no one is a perfect fighter, and everyone is human. Outside influences always find their way and effect us. Thats why everyone one of Ip Man disciples and students have “different” Wing Chun. Thats why some people are more “harder” or “softer”, “faster” or “fundamental”, “dynamic” or “classical/traditional”. I don't believe that Wing Chun is more this than that, more soft than hard or something else. Its abstract and how it “IS”, is based on the person using it.




These are all things I have been taught and then observed on my own. I am sure your sifu has taught you similar practical concepts about training, life and Wing Chun.


I enjoy our conversation.


Brian

 

[Ali Rahim]

Ali,

Timing is a abstract idea, it can be told in words. You can describe it, yet that doesn't mean the person completely understands and can reproduce what you have said in his actions. It takes many hours of practice, and correcting.
JMO and many others..

I will show you on video, as I explain vocally.

Size , and other natural abilities don't have a effect on the fundamental idea, but they have a major effect on the application. Sometimes they also effect the way you train. The application changes depending on the variables of the situation.

I believe; and was taught, that only weak fundamentals make weak applications or techniques.

For example, how you lop sao can change slightly if you are taller or shorter than the person. It may be more natural to lop sao pull up for a shorter person, in a fight with a much taller person. How can it change the way you train?

I was taught to never speak of techniques, for it only confuses the true development of understanding.

Yes of course but no one is a perfect fighter, and everyone is human. Outside influences always find their way and effect us. Thats why everyone one of Ip Man disciples and students have “different” Wing Chun. Thats why some people are more “harder” or “softer”, “faster” or “fundamental”, “dynamic” or “classical/traditional”. I don't believe that Wing Chun is more this than that, more soft than hard or something else. Its abstract and how it “IS”, is based on the person using it.?

Leung Sheung was Yip Man's first disciple. When Leung Sheung met Yip Man, Leung was 30 years old, weighed about 200lbs and had been doing martial arts for over 20 years, dragon style and choy lay fut. Yip Man was around 50 and weighed about 130lbs.

And beat Leung Sheung with structure and softness every time because he could not defeat him with force alone, being 70lbs lighter the Leuung Sheung. And my teacher can do the same too me, and so on, and so forth. The Leung Sheung approach is highly known for using softness in great detail, to the point it is widely known as the “soft approach” of wing chun.

Nice talking to you, take care.


Ali

 

[Ali Rahim]

Here are some timing drills.

http://www.detroitwingchun.com/timing.htm

Ali.

 

[profesormental]

Greetings.

Ali, I enjoyed the content of your site and the approach to teaching and leaning martial skills that you have posted.

I also enjoyed the video where the eigenvalues and eigenvectors of that matrix were being solved. (I'm mathematical physicist, so I can appreciate those things!)

Wing Chung basics, if taught right, teach you how to move with very efficient output and stability. First a solid base to use the upper body, then to move the whole body with solid footwork that allows very efficient
use of effort.

Yet if a rigorous analysis is done, looking for how the human anatomy DICTATES the MAXIMUM efficiency for movements, you'll find that there is room for improvement.

The good thing is that the training for maximum movent was known to Wing Chun Masters and creators (and to many Kung Fu Masters!). Several knew how, now we're getting into the why's and how to verify to maximize them again!

And depending on the soundness of the basics, is the efficiency of the application.

That is why daily practice, for example, for Wing Chun Masters was Sil Lum tao, and Naihanchi for Motobyu Choki (Okinawa's BEST Karateka at the early 20th century)...

because any application depends on the perfection of these anatomically correct movemnts, and finding the most efficient way to achieve such movement.

For example, there are movements, that if you do not use the trajectory taught in the forms, when you test the movement, it will be structurally weak.

Just for starters, try this experiment.

In any horse stance, throw a horizontal punch forward (fist horizontal). Take a training partner and instruct him to put his arms around you and hug you against the pressure of the punch while you keep it straight.

The hug shoud be forceful and your partner's goal is to collapse your arm. Record the result and subje4ctive experience (effort, did the arm collapse, etc.)

Do the same, but throw a Chung Kuen (vertical fist) instead, as in the first section of SLT.

Notice the difference and post your experience.

The whole of the Wing Chun Forms is a study in optimization of movement, and the deviations and variations in the execution of the forms is a testament to the understanding or lack thereof of these principles of maximizing anatomical alignment for martial purposes.

This is since Wing Chun philosophy is in application mainly Taoist. So instead of practicing technique sets, which are pedagogically useful, yet easy to generate for illustration,

Wing Chun practices the components of these maximal output movements and a mechanism to ingrain it into behavior spontaneously (Chi sao).

Technique sequences are examples and there are quite useful for teaching concretely the principles.

The principles and concepts are what is left after analysis of the techniques, and techniques sping from the principles and concepts.

So testing for maximum efficiency from the basics is what makes the difference. Fortunately, we now know how thatnks to generations of Masters... and why.

So it is our turn to test it out and make it even better!

The good thing is that making things better (more efficient) will be almost unoticeable EXTERNALLY to most people!

Much fun!

From the content of your site, I can say that you are very competent and impressive Wing Chun Sifu. Your students should be proud.

SIncerely,

Juan M. Mercado

 

[Ali Rahim]

Thank you so much, when you are in Kentucky. You are always welcome to stay with us.

I like those drills so much, because you can actually work every movement in the Sil Lum Tao form. To see how they work without deviating form the oneness of the wing chun stance, and at the same time without being overly aggressive, using to much muscle force and forgetting about the whole concept of little ideal.

And the best thing about it 80% of you punches, become strikeouts to your opponent mentally, like major-league baseball. When you understand this version; as seen on video, you can also move three times slower and still make your opponent miss. I didn’t want to put that on a clip cause, I thought that would be showing off.

Ali.

 

[monji112000]

Thank you for posting the clip. I can't comment on them because I never trained with you, and I can't say what I haven't experienced.

The idea of timing I was talking about was a little more complicated that that. Its more related to how Western boxers fight with timing, speed, reaction, distance ect..

It really was more of a example about how you can't teach someone these ideas without first correcting them and countless practicing and testing.

I will say that your style from the vid, other vids/posts I have read here and at your site, (I have noticed your site for sometime) is more short distance. It
is influenced by your physical traits and your teachers personal experience.

What I have learned is more long distance fighting. My Sigungs emphasized that aspect of their training with their teacher Ip Man. Its not a a correct or wrong way.. its simply a different application of the same ideas. Duncan Leung (my Sigung) has posted many remarks about this issue.

In my little experience with Sifu Allen , I believe his fighting style is very similar to Duncan's. We fight in close when we its appropriate, but a great deal of our techniques are "longer". Forexample: sop sao, Bow and Arrow punch, uppercut, hook, all the shin kicks, push kicks, wip kicks ect..


SO our timing drills are related to the whole body, and footwork. Mostly feeling the persons timing, and jamming or getting away. Building the correct reaction, and covering constantly.


If I may show some old clips that emphasis what I mean by timing and long distance:

 

[monji112000]

here are some old clips (none have me in them sorry) I havn't seen a clip worth posting that has me in it.. LOL maybe when I get better?..



really any of the Duncan's or Allen's Clips show the type of timing/power/reaction drills I am talking about

Sifu Allen's School

http://youtube.com/watch?v=n7hbittGBwo&mode=related&search=
http://youtube.com/watch?v=TvNBF6vGvBs&mode=related&search=
Sifu Gorden's School
http://www.vbwingchun.com/sparring.wmv
http://vbwingchun.com/bow&arrow.gif
http://vbwingchun.com/jab.gif
http://vbwingchun.com/punch2.gif
Sifu Duncan's School
http://wingchunkungfu.cn/Mastermpg/122899b.mpg
http://wingchunkungfu.cn/Mastermpg/112699h.mpg
http://wingchunkungfu.cn/Mastermpg/102799q.mpg

and just as a point outside of the kicking you can see what comes from the first form, second, and third in application.

 

[Ali Rahim]

I’m not trying to be a nemesis, but; I see very little of true timing going on there. Because none of those attacks are stopped in it’s infancy, I mean, before those guys techniques or applications begins to form out, into a full ideal.

He always caught himself on the end of there ideal, the full potential of their strikes, which seems to be choreographed, basically there are no timing in those movements, only speed. If timing were there, they would not have enough time to even begin to strike at the person in the middle.

Ali.

 

[Ali Rahim]

I looked very carefully, over and over again, if some of those techniques are not choreograph, then it is not good that those attacks came out that far, if those are timing drills that are being demonstrated, very bad for timing sake.

Ali.

 

[Ali Rahim]

Everyone’s movements seems to be over worked on those clips, attacking only after their opponents ideal has been establish, in the case of timing, way to late too gain true knockout power, or for a defensive follow through such as “da” simultaneously strike and block.

Ali.

 

[Ali Rahim]

I will say that your style from the vid, other vids/posts I have read here and at your site, (I have noticed your site for sometime) is more short distance. It is influenced by your physical traits and your teachers personal experience.

I teach only in the way that my teacher taught me, no more and no less, and my sifu is a very small man. Once again, size has nothing to do with good wing chun.

Ali.

 

[profesormental]

Greetings.

First off, the links you show are of "technique circles" or what is commonly called one step sparing.

Those are not what are considered timing drills.

I agree with Ali's comments.

Note that I also know that those are good drills for overall performance, but they don't teach close up combat timing, which is the most important part of the action, in those exercises.

Also, they do not do realistic reactions to the counter attacks (the effect of the couter on the attacker).

What do I mean?

When someone kicks or punches at you, and they are countered the way it was done on those videos, most won't step back...

they will continue forward and hug/grab on to you, or worse.

Without an effective follow up or way to control the distancing, you'll get clinched.

Look at those clips, and notice what would be the case if the initial attack was done in a manner consistent with that of a violent person with the tunnel vision intent of hurting you?

The intent is of throwing my leg so a partner can get some contact and counter somehow.

They were also countered at the full power point of the path of aggression; i.e. right where the attacker expects contact.

If it is understood that the structure of the attack before or after the point of expected contact is surprisingly weak, yet VERY strong at that point, then it would make sense to counter at the weak points .

The anatomical structure of the attacker is very unstable if you make contact before or after expected...

as happens when you misstep on a stair case.

Timing drills for those attacks are done using Chum kiu learnings and attacking before the attacker reaches full power; or after the "point of no return" and redirecting or attacking the attack; or avoiding and couter attacking.

Also, using CHum Kiu learinings, you should drill "seeking the bridge" or closing the fighting distance, or gap...

i.e. getting close to use your strengths and negating the attackers strengths.

From there countinueing until the attacker is controlled and/or neutralized.

Does that make sense?

Most probably your teachers have taken this into account for more advanced students and drills, yet many others do not, and they are important ideas to incorporate, think and train upon.

Also, the comment on size...

One of my teachers is about the same size as Ali Rahim.

They move almost exacly alike.

Wing Chun is taught using your individual dimensions to measure your movement.

Tactically, size matters. But anatomically correct movements are the same no matter the size.

So I again agree with Ali on this one.

Thank you for the clips and the discusion. It really helps to cook up more delicious ideas to be exposed to these discussions.

I hope to soon be able to record and put out some clips for your enjoyment and discussion.

Sincerely,

Juan M. Mercado

P.S. Ali, you can show off as much as you like in the videos... that is inspiration to those that want to get there... and also, if they see it is possible, they can train to atain it... like the 4 minute mile!

P.S.S. Could you share what Qi Gong training do you do? And what Iron palm training do you do?

At my school, Qi Gong training has been almost all incorporated into the forms and partner training, including breathing and "energy" control, plus verification mechanisms, healing and destructive uses.

Body conditioning has been reduced to the wall bags, the dummy, and partner training (we slap each other around pretty hard... exept to the head... you get used to it in a few weeks, and then you can't train without it, since you can't gauge if what your partner did works or not!).

Now that we have more time, I wanted as to include Iron Body training, internal and external, to my students.

Any feedback and suggestions are more than welcome!

 

[Ali Rahim]

This is why I keep saying that it don’t matter what size you are. This is what my teacher did too me. I asked him if size matter. He just simply said, if you can hit me, then I can hit you. Then I said; what do you mean?

Then he continued too tell me, to put my fist on his chest, so I did so. Then he put his fist on my chest. Then he said; even though you are much taller then myself, your height cannot over whelm the fact that I can make contact with you. The only thing that will keep me from hitting you; is, “myself.

And being 6’4, 250lbs I couldn’t do anything with my master skills, the harder and faster I came in, the quicker I felt pain, in some cases I could not continue.

Hey Pro. I just love that last post.

Ali.

 

[monji112000]

profesormental, you say that the "circle" drill isn't a timing drill. That they don't teach close up timing, and thats the most important part. They don't continue to fight.

I will state again I am not in any of the videos, and that nothing is perfect.
BUT THE CLIPS I posted are very good examples of traditional training methods Ip Man's disciples. These are some of the ways they learned how to APPLY, their Wing Chun.

BUT, I will argue the following points even though they don't relate to the topic of the thread(horse stance). 1. The circle trains your initial reactions, when done at a faster pace. The initial reactions are based on TIMING,COVERING,RELAXING ect.. 2. It trains your follow up and it forces you to constantly relax. 3. It trains you in keeping a safe distance. So does this drill train timing of course.. any drill were people are attacking you and you have to move your whole body in a set timing.. trains timing.

Its not the end all to be all of training drills, but it serves it purpose well. I have offered boxers to try the drill in a modified manner and they enjoyed it allot. The circle is practiced in many Schools, also sparring is practiced. As for the idea that close distance is the most important. Again, I mentioned that we train to keep a safe distance, its a different application of the abstract ideas.

How do you train for when the person continues to attack you and grab you? well we have other drills and sparring. BUT, if you don't train your reaction and timing .. you lose that element of your skill.

Size will always matter. Anatomically size will always matter. Ip Man was a small person maybe 80 pounds when he died. Do you honestly think everyone of his disciples were expected to fight exactly like him? Everyone puts their physical and thier personality into what they do. Its not that one size is better.. its that thing are different. A taller person who does chi sao with a shorter person has a different feeling. This is a basic observation most people have when they open their minds and experience allot of martial arts, fights, ect.. JMO and many others..

People find that things work better for them at different times. The reason isn't because one is correct and the others aren't. Its because the circumstances are different. Thats why Wing Chun has so many ideas, and theory's.. thats why its abstract. Thats why you find many different western boxers from all around the world basically fight with the same theory's.. but they are all unique. They all build their own experience, and test things .. find ways to apply the same punch but for them personally. Thats why although the Taller fighters use the same boxing, they must adapt their strategy to meet each opponent.

You practice Qi Kung? me too on my treadmill, when I spar, when I do any exercise. Thats Wing Chun Qi Kung. It was Ip mans and many other experience that no one has ever fought someone who can attack with Qi Kung. It maybe good for your health.. but for fighting it doesn't work.

:angel:
Brian

 

[monji112000]

I’m not trying to be a nemesis, but; I see very little of true timing going on there. Because none of those attacks are stopped in it’s infancy, I mean, before those guys techniques or applications begins to form out, into a full ideal.

He always caught himself on the end of there ideal, the full potential of their strikes, which seems to be choreographed, basically there are no timing in those movements, only speed. If timing were there, they would not have enough time to even begin to strike at the person in the middle.

Ali.

I know of two type of timing in Wing CHung. Jaming and getting away. Jaming as you say must cut in and COVER complety before the full power. Getting away is the oposite and the most safe (for me the most ideal). It its how you fight from a distance.

Covering is how you deal with the continues attacks. but also distance, In my experiance distance counts more than anything else. It can make you faster or slower. The farther you are the safer you are. The farther you are the more his moves are telegraphed. For me the more nateral way is to getaway and counter attack. For you its not... nothing wrong with that.

 

[profesormental]

Greetings!

I agree with you analysis of the circle drill.

My point is that it is not what is normally called a timing drill.

It can teach application of the Wing Chun movements. Yet it is like a mouthful compared to eating small chunks... you get there gradually as to maximize each attribute.

The attibutes being Timing, coordination, speed, reaction, footwork, etc.


And of course, size matters, as I said, tactically. The thing is that a tan sao is taught according to your personal dimensions, so the basics are taught independent of size.

The application changes depending on the attacker/opponent.

On the Qi Gong, I used to train heavily external and internal Qi Gong from my Shaolin Chuan days.

Good workouts and you felt superhuman and impervious to many empty hand attacks... and phenomenal shape.

Now because of time constraints and life outside training, I concentrate on skill development and conditioning through practicing without stopping the skills, and progressively harder contact, coupled with absorbing and redirection of momentum created by impact.

Now I have more time, so I was thinking of training again the way I did before.

I will start a new thread with this query.

Sicnerely,

Juan M. Mercado

 

[bcbernam777]

You seem to know an awful lot about Yip Man, what is your source

 

[yrwca]

is the main stance in wing chun the horse stance? i think that is the stance where both feet are about shoulder width apart with the fists ready at the side palms up.
i ask about this stance because it seems like if a person is in this stance they are really planted to the ground and it would be hard for them to move out of the line of a punch or kick.this makes me think that this stance is not a practical.if this stance is just for training and not used in real fighting then i ask why train in this stance,why not just train in the stance that you are going to fight in?
i also seem to remember reading somewhere that bruce lee said that the horse stance is not paractical,am i wrong?

If I can jump way back to the first posting...
I have often seen terminology tangle things up. The main WC stance would more correctly be called a "goat" stance distinct from a "horse" which is about twice as wide. The goat is not all that impractical or unrealistic. Consider how many situations might find you "just standing there" in a crowd or a small space. WC has been called "elevator boxing", after all. Someone less than two feet away thrusts at your belly (not your face), where do you have time to go? Just a pivot. We're probably talking less that 0.3 second here.

 

[HG1]

Not a Wing Chun guy but coming from Hung-Ga there's kind of a love/hate relationship with horse stance. Somewhat misunderstood in it's usage, you don't sit in horse when your opponent is directly in front of you. I cringe everytime I see applications like that.

 

[yrwca]

Not a Wing Chun guy but coming from Hung-Ga there's kind of a love/hate relationship with horse stance. Somewhat misunderstood in it's usage, you don't sit in horse when your opponent is directly in front of you. I cringe everytime I see applications like that.

I had twelve years of TKD & Shito-ryu before my WC. I've never seen anyone actually suggest such a position. Have you?