The Proper Horse Stance?

[Doc]

I have not heard that before. My teachings were allways that Mr. Parker was taught by Prof Chow and he was taught by Dr Mitose. Do you have a link somewhere that shows that link in the chain?

Kwai Sun Chow was one of Parker's teachers. Chow was not taught by Mitose who also was neither a minister nor a doctor. Your information is an erroneous story repeated often and reinforced by splinter kenpo groups to bolster the Mitose Lineage.

We teach the pevis tucked. This it to straighten the spine and help force the shoulders back and keep the head up.

"Tucking the pelvis" has the effect of "locking" the hip sockets and tightening the buttocks, but it does not straighten the spine. Proper placement of the feet, knees, and head, in conjunction with the proper weight distribution will cause the spine to straighten without the dramatic effects of "forced" postures.

Now that I am thinking more about this, it is possible that we only chant "Tuck the pelvis" at our students because they are failing to get the proper erect posture and this forces them into that. Point well taken Doc.

Who knows. There are so many often repeated myths associated with the arts that just get repeated over and over, because it's easier than having a real answer as the last line in my signature suggests sir.

 

[DavidCC]

I have not heard that before. My teachings were allways that Mr. Parker was taught by Prof Chow and he was taught by Dr Mitose. Do you have a link somewhere that shows that link in the chain?

No, but I know someone who was in Ark Wong's classes with Mr Parker at the time, I believed him when he pointed at a building once and said "that's where Ed Parker and I took classes form Ark Wong" ... BTW he is posting in this thread ... :angel:

 

[Doc]

No, but I know someone who was in Ark Wong's classes with Mr Parker at the time, I believed him when he pointed at a building once and said "that's where Ed Parker and I took classes form Ark Wong" ... BTW he is posting in this thread ... :angel:

Correct. 302 Ord Street in L.A. Chinatown. Around the corner from "Won Kok," the Chinese Restaurant where Parker and some of the gang would hang out. Also a few blocks from Bruce Lee's School on College St. However Mr. Parker and I were not there at the same time. He was much older than I. I was around when Huamea "Tiny" Lefiti was around though.

 

[seasoned]

The rolling of the pelvic is merely the result of having an erect posture, including a properly "indexed" head. Nothing more needs be done.

Doc, are you saying that with proper structure “body alignment” along with a relaxed pelvic area that the hips will naturally tuck under.

 

[Doc]

Doc, are you saying that with proper structure “body alignment” along with a relaxed pelvic area that the hips will naturally tuck under.

What I am saying is, "When all of the postural elements are as they should be, there is no need to project an undo amount of attention on the pelvic area. It will naturally be correct." sir.

 

[Flying Crane]

Chow was not taught by Mitose who also was neither a minister nor a doctor. Your information is an erroneous story repeated often and reinforced by splinter kenpo groups to bolster the Mitose Lineage.

Who do you believe was Mr. Chow's teacher(s), and what was he taught by this person/people?

 

[Doc]

Who do you believe was Mr. Chow's teacher(s), and what was he taught by this person/people?

According to Mr. Parker, Chow was taught by his Father and Henry Okazaki, as well as others he came in contact with. While some have generated considerable controversy surrounding Kwai Sun Chow's teachers, no one has ever suggested he was anything other than a tremendous fighter and a highly skilled practitioner standing up, or on the ground.

 

[Flying Crane]

According to Mr. Parker, Chow was taught by his Father and Henry Okazaki, as well as others he came in contact with. While some have generated considerable controversy surrounding Kwai Sun Chow's teachers, no one has ever suggested he was anything other than a tremendous fighter and a highly skilled practitioner standing up, or on the ground.

I am familiar with Okazaki and Danzan Ryu jujitsu, and I've seen some self defense techniques in Danzan ryu that are very similar to those found in kenpo. I understand that the Danzan Ryu crowd in Hawaii knew a lot of the kenpo people so I wouldn't be surprised if Mr. Chow had a background of some sort in this.

I've also heard claim of Mr. Chow learning "something" from his father, but I've never seen a clear indication of any truth in that, nor what it would have been that his father taught him. Any ideas on what that would have been, and any substantiation of that?

Seems I've also seen photos online of James Mitose's class, with Mr. Chow lined up among the students or assistant teachers or something. I'll have to see if I can figure out where I saw that...

 

[Doc]

I am familiar with Okazaki and Danzan Ryu jujitsu, and I've seen some self defense techniques in Danzan ryu that are very similar to those found in kenpo. I understand that the Danzan Ryu crowd in Hawaii knew a lot of the kenpo people so I wouldn't be surprised if Mr. Chow had a background of some sort in this.

I've also heard claim of Mr. Chow learning "something" from his father, but I've never seen a clear indication of any truth in that, nor what it would have been that his father taught him. Any ideas on what that would have been, and any substantiation of that?

Seems I've also seen photos online of James Mitose's class, with Mr. Chow lined up among the students or assistant teachers or something. I'll have to see if I can figure out where I saw that...

I've see photos of classes lined up, but never participation. Most have figured out that Mitose was using Chow to build his own creds as he did with others, and Chow said the same. At best they were short term collaborators, while Chow often boasted that Mitose messed over so many people that he needed "bodyguards," but Chow himself said, "Mitose need bodyguards, I don't need bodyguards, I beat up Mitose's bodyguards."

Mitose never ever displayed anything that resembled significant training, and Mr. Parker often said, "Mitose had nothing." He was a con man, among other things, and that has significant proof.

 

[Flying Crane]

Why would Mr. Chow use the name "kenpo" to describe what he was doing, if his background was Danzan Ryu and something else from his father? Do you know what is father taught him?

I've heard it said that his father was a hung gar man, but I find that hard to believe. Admittedly my own knowledge and experience with traditional hung gar is very limited and superficial, but nothing of the standard kenpo material that I've seen in Tracys and other lineages of kenpo looks even remotely like hung gar. Granted, in Tracys we've got a version of Fu/Hok, but that's openly acknowledged as something brought into the system from an outside source. And even that has been thoroughly "kenpoized" and has a fairly different flavor from the traditional hung gar method. Nobody pretends that it was handed down thru Mr. Chow. If Mr. Chow's lineage was hung gar, I would expect to see the traditional hung gar forms in the system, as well as a much stronger hung gar flavor all around.

 

[still learning]

Hello, The HORSE stance is just a training position to develop the body...it is also can be use from one movement to another...

NO one fights in a Horse stance....Do you see professioal Boxes, Kick Boxers, JUDO, or mix martial artist fight this way in the rings? or streets? using the horse stances? as their main techinques?

Wrestlers have a low ground stance that looks like a horse stance....because making your body lower helps from preventing been thrown or taken down....MY daughter wrestles in High School.

Just view Horse stances as a training position..and do it the way YOUR teacher wants you to do it!

Do Cowboys love the horse stances?

Stay in a horse stance? your legs will get kick all the time!

Aloha, Mules stance could be consider the same thing?

PS: most kempo/ kenpo schools teach you to fight like a boxers style - more up right- for mobility

 

[Flying Crane]

NO one fights in a Horse stance....Do you see professioal Boxes, Kick Boxers, JUDO, or mix martial artist fight this way in the rings? or streets? using the horse stances? as their main techinques?

um, WE use the horse stance all the time, as a fighting base.

Stay in a horse stance? your legs will get kick all the time!

no...

PS: most kempo/ kenpo schools teach you to fight like a boxers style - more up right- for mobility

again, no.

 

[seasoned]

What I am saying is, "When all of the postural elements are as they should be, there is no need to project an undo amount of attention on the pelvic area. It will naturally be correct." sir.

My sentiments exactly.

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

For whatever it's worth, I'm a notorious "find the old guys, buy them dinner, and get them talking" fan of old kenpo tales...love the history, and prefer to get it form the horses mouths whenever I can. From more than one Chow lineage guy who has trained with him, Chow was taught kung-fu by his father (I'll press for specifics next time I see one of the guys). He and his half-brother (Chow-Hoon) were often the enforcers of their fathers will for debt and loan issues, so he got a lot of practical experience from early on collecting for his pops.

He got a form or so from Mitose, but tended to ditch them, preferring to train short, quick combinations...an influence seen today in the systems of his students: SD Techs in Parker system and it's offshoots, Punch Counters and such from kaju. He used numbers instead of names ("Number 22"), and would just train the hell out of them. Strictly, and very hard. Kung-fu, karate, and boxing entries, jujutsu takedowns and finishes, combined with more hitting the guy while he was downed. An approach of his own making, born out of his training and back-alley experiences.

D.

 

[Doc]

Maybe I misrepresented what I meant. NCKKA traces from Mr LaBounty, thru Mr. Parker back to William Chow. I know my instructor also teaches Hung Gar forms and this has influenced our system, but I am unsure what you were referring to in your statement. Are you refeering to the fact that Hung Gar played a part in the teachings that came back from China, thru Japan and thus to Mr Chow?

Respectfully,

Bill

There is no "Japanese" connection, other than those that resided in Hawaii.

 

[seasoned]

Hello, The HORSE stance is just a training position to develop the body...it is also can be use from one movement to another...

NO one fights in a Horse stance....Do you see professioal Boxes, Kick Boxers, JUDO, or mix martial artist fight this way in the rings? or streets? using the horse stances? as their main techinques?

Wrestlers have a low ground stance that looks like a horse stance....because making your body lower helps from preventing been thrown or taken down....MY daughter wrestles in High School.

Just view Horse stances as a training position..and do it the way YOUR teacher wants you to do it!

Do Cowboys love the horse stances?

Stay in a horse stance? your legs will get kick all the time!

Aloha, Mules stance could be consider the same thing?

PS: most kempo/ kenpo schools teach you to fight like a boxers style - more up right- for mobility

Kiba Dachi “Horse Stance”, Shiko Dachi “Sumo Stance” are seen in many of the kata of Okinawan GoJu, which is a close quarter fighting art. Not used as much for sparring, but still effective. They are used more for close in fighting.

 

[still learning]

Hello, I know saying "No one fights in a Horse Stance" was going to create some reactions...

Most martial arts teaches you the horse stances from the beginning to forever...

Many of us have been program to believe certain concepts of our training...like the horse stances....is vital

Many of us would like to see more Science Studies done on many parts of the martial arts....like Kata's, horse stances, use of punching bags, etc...

Real, unbias ,Human studies ...what are the best training methods (modern) for today human beings.

Police,FBI,military (around the world)....including us....trying to finding the best training methods...

The future will change alot of old concepts or maybe re-enforce them!

Ever golf in the horse stance?

Aloha, ( I must be from some place else?)

 

[Doc]

Hello, I know saying "No one fights in a Horse Stance" was going to create some reactions...

Most martial arts teaches you the horse stances from the beginning to forever...

Many of us have been program to believe certain concepts of our training...like the horse stances....is vital

Many of us would like to see more Science Studies done on many parts of the martial arts....like Kata's, horse stances, use of punching bags, etc...

Real, unbias ,Human studies ...what are the best training methods (modern) for today human beings.

Police,FBI,military (around the world)....including us....trying to finding the best training methods...

The future will change alot of old concepts or maybe re-enforce them!

Ever golf in the horse stance?

Aloha, ( I must be from some place else?)

Actually sir, a Horse Stance may not be the preferred method to begin a confrontation for obvious reasons, but that does not mean it is not used in and during an encounter.

 

[seasoned]

Ever golf in the horse stance?
Aloha, ( I must be from some place else?)

Can’t say that I have, but there are two ways to place the ball on the tee. Conventional way, bend over, or horse stance, gets you close to the ground while still balanced. Hitting the ball is long range requiring close stance while placing the ball on the tee is close in, requiring wider stance to mantain "balance".

it is also can be use from one movement to another
Wrestlers have a low ground stance that looks like a horse stance....because making your body lower helps from preventing been thrown or taken down....MY daughter wrestles in High School.
The above are your words, looks like fighting to me. :asian:

 

[Bill_Hunsicker]

Ever golf in the horse stance?

Yes actually, I have. When I was first learning to golf the way my father was teaching me didnt really make sense to me. So for the first game (which I insisted on doing before dad said I was ready), I used the horse stance (slightly modified to be a bit higher) to gain the stability of the lower body so that piviting my upper body did not pull me off line. While I lost TONS of distance doing this (read only around 150 yards for most clubs), I was able to control the ball and keep it in the fairway or first rough.

As far as using the horse stance in a real situation, there are times when it is the right thing to do. We teach standard sparing using the neutral bow which is a variation of the horse stance. Additionally, if I find myself in a situation where I need immediate stability, I might switch to a horse stance and then on into whatever is needed next.