Pole form low horse discussion

[geezer]

And the middle east! They even have porta-johns that are of the "straddle the hole" variety! With the places for your feet clearly marked out!

OK then! are the feet marked as parallel or splayed out?

...In one picture above they look splayed, but too narrow for a good horse. On the other hand if you are facing the hole to pee, you would be in a decent YGKYM!!!

 

[wckf92]

Ok. Remind me never to start a thread with you clowns... FFS!

 

[ShortBridge]

Ok. Remind me never to start a thread with you clowns... FFS!

So, what is your answer; parallel or angled out feet?

 

[geezer]

Anyone who says traditional Kung Fu doesn't work in real life has never had to hold a horse stance over a middle eastern hole in the floor toilet.

...or as demonstrated by Sammo Hung in The Prodigal Son (1:11:20 - 1:12:25):

 

[wckf92]

So, what is your answer; parallel or angled out feet?

Well, honestly I don't know which topic you are discussing! hahaha. Are we talking about going number 1 or number 2 in some foreign land? Or the low pole horse?

 

[geezer]

OK, sorry to lead this thread down the toilette.

now getting back to the original question, I'd say we need to pay less attention to what some authority terms "correct" and more to what works. An example would be arguing over something as trivial the precise thumb position in wu sau. I've had "grandmasters" from two different Yip Man lineages correct me in exactly opposite ways on this, when in fact neither position would make any real difference in fighting.

As far as the foot position in the horse stance in the pole form, either gently splayed or parallel could work depending on the individual. Precision and awareness of detail is very important in any martial art, but obsession over non-functional trivia is counterproductive. Understanding the difference between detail and BS is even more important!

 

[ShortBridge]

Well, honestly I don't know which topic you are discussing! hahaha. Are we talking about going number 1 or number 2 in some foreign land? Or the low pole horse?

I can understand your confusion. I'm not as interested in your bathroom habits as this thread might suggest. Since you brought it up, I would be interested to know how you position your feet in the low pole horse stance.

 

[wckf92]

I can understand your confusion. I'm not as interested in your bathroom habits as this thread might suggest. Since you brought it up, I would be interested to know how you position your feet in the low pole horse stance.

I was taught feet parallel. You?

(for the record though...I kind of like KPM's comment about "just place your feet naturally)...

 

[ShortBridge]

I've had people senior to me argue each way and I've not personally dug in on one vs the other. The way you were taught holds weight with me though and I'm going to practice strictly parallel for a while as a result.

 

[Danny T]

...I'd say we need to pay less attention to what some authority terms "correct" and more to what works. An example would be arguing over something as trivial the precise thumb position in wu sau. I've had "grandmasters" from two different Yip Man lineages correct me in exactly opposite ways on this, when in fact neither position would make any real difference in fighting.

...obsession over non-functional trivia is counterproductive. Understanding the difference between detail and BS is even more important!

Wish I could Like these 47 times.

When it comes to fighting - Efficient Effective Function over Aesthetics every time.

 

[ShortBridge]

Wish I could Like these 47 times.

When it comes to fighting - Efficient Effective Function over Aesthetics every time.

Yes, definitely, but I was telling my students last night that forms are where we can focus on perfection, that is ONE of the purposes that they can serve.

Drills, sparring, "play", and certainly fighting are not the places to worry about micro-precision of angles.

 

[Danny T]

Yes, definitely, but I was telling my students last night that forms are where we can focus on perfection, that is ONE of the purposes that they can serve.

Drills, sparring, "play", and certainly fighting are not the places to worry about micro-precision of angles.

Yeah...I understand the premise but is there really a precision as to a particular angle on anything in WC? I opine, No. Everything is an approximation. I believe understanding what the form intends to inform us of and being able to function within the movements is structures far more important than working to a precise angle.
As in geezer's example it more about understanding where the elbow is to be placed, the relationship of the ulna and radial bones & their alignments vs where or how the thumb is to be positioned. Well other than having jammed, broken off, or poking yourself in one of eyes.
My understanding of form...it is a catalog of sorts, unwritten to show the major aspects of the mechanics of the system or the cliff notes to jog the practitioner's memory of much more.

 

[ShortBridge]

I agree with everything you wrote, but assuming that micro differences in angles are not practically important, I believe that developing the ability to do it exactly the way that you intend to IS important. I was working with two guys last night on the Mook Jong and pointed out that their arms are essentially the same length as one another, but their waists were 4" different in height, meaning one had significantly longer legs than the other.

That means, that to position themselves optimally on each section of that form they will be in different places, so we'll all work through and find our sweet spot. It's not about being in the "correct" spot for authentic Wing Chun, it's about knowing your own body and having command of it to position yourself appropriately. Unscripted, you can't be calculating angles, you have to focus on the macro and find a way to win. In a form, like the Mook Jong, I want them to strive for perfect position, perfect structure, perfect expression.

But, that's just me. I do agree with what you wrote above. They are not contradictory ideas.