How I train horse stance movement

[JowGaWolf]

Every now and then I have someone tell me that a person can't move fast while in horse stance so I thought I would share this video that shows me doing a training exercise that I teach that helps train the mobility of the horse stance. I'm the guy on the left. I shouldn't get in trouble for this since this is not actually "taught" in the Jow Ga Schools. This is something that I learned on my own by fighting in a low stance. In Jow Ga we have something call stepping form, but it won't make sense until you actually try to fight with it and learn on your own how it works and in what conditions.

This is an example of the stepping form but not how it's taught at my school.

Before you watch the video understand that there are many ways to move while in horse stance, so please don't view this video as "how someone should move in horse stance." This video only shows that it's not as difficult as people think it is. This movement can also be done in a lower horse stance, but keep in mind there is a limit as to how low you can go and the lower you are the more effort it will take to keep the stance. You will still move fast, but your legs will just burn our faster. The more your knees are bent the more distance you will be able to cover. With a good stance and that's low, but not to low. You should be able to quickly cover 4 feet. If you need to cover more than that then you should probably be running. In a fight 1 or 2 feet is more than enough movement.

This was a light training day where we were focused on the technique of moving. You can tell by the video that I'm cruising and I'm not struggling to move nor am I'm trying to move fast. The speed of the movement is based on quickness. The faster your feet can plant and push off the faster the movement will be. Take note that my feet are barely off the ground. This means my feet are able to make contact with the ground faster. The student on the right is actually moving faster than me. But he has some heel toe action going on which slows his transition speed of pushing off and changing sides. I usually do 4 rounds of this at this pace (2 up and 2 back down to where I start.) On my hard practice days, I will only do 2 rounds as fast as I can. This training helps to build quickness, strength, and endurance.

This is nothing new to fighting. I've seen Manny Pacquiao do the same thing but they call it a stutter step, but it's an old technique that existed long before Pacquiao. You know when someone is in a horse stance by the distance between the person's right and light foot. Watch to see if the knees are straight or if they are bent. TMA says keep the knees bent as this means your legs are always ready to push off. If your legs are straight then it means you must first bend your legs before you can push off. This takes time to do, which means your movement will be slower.

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[jobo]

Every now and then I have someone tell me that a person can't move fast while in horse stance so I thought I would share this video that shows me doing a training exercise that I teach that helps train the mobility of the horse stance. I'm the guy on the left. I shouldn't get in trouble for this since this is not actually "taught" in the Jow Ga Schools. This is something that I learned on my own by fighting in a low stance. In Jow Ga we have something call stepping form, but it won't make sense until you actually try to fight with it and learn on your own how it works and in what conditions.

This is an example of the stepping form but not how it's taught at my school.

Before you watch the video understand that there are many ways to move while in horse stance, so please don't view this video as "how someone should move in horse stance." This video only shows that it's not as difficult as people think it is. This movement can also be done in a lower horse stance, but keep in mind there is a limit as to how low you can go and the lower you are the more effort it will take to keep the stance. You will still move fast, but your legs will just burn our faster. The more your knees are bent the more distance you will be able to cover. With a good stance and that's low, but not to low. You should be able to quickly cover 4 feet. If you need to cover more than that then you should probably be running. In a fight 1 or 2 feet is more than enough movement.

This was a light training day where we were focused on the technique of moving. You can tell by the video that I'm cruising and I'm not struggling to move nor am I'm trying to move fast. The speed of the movement is based on quickness. The faster your feet can plant and push off the faster the movement will be. Take note that my feet are barely off the ground. This means my feet are able to make contact with the ground faster. The student on the right is actually moving faster than me. But he has some heel toe action going on which slows his transition speed of pushing off and changing sides. I usually do 4 rounds of this at this pace (2 up and 2 back down to where I start.) On my hard practice days, I will only do 2 rounds as fast as I can. This training helps to build quickness, strength, and endurance.

This is nothing new to fighting. I've seen Manny Pacquiao do the same thing but they call it a stutter step, but it's an old technique that existed long before Pacquiao. You know when someone is in a horse stance by the distance between the person's right and light foot. Watch to see if the knees are straight or if they are bent. TMA says keep the knees bent as this means your legs are always ready to push off. If your legs are straight then it means you must first bend your legs before you can push off. This takes time to do, which means your movement will be slower.

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you don't seem to have a fixed point of view. In the other thread you said that kung fo can't cope with boxing style movement and then post another dozen times saying it can?????? . Now your posting you doing a boxing style movement that is not allowed in your,style of kung fu, to show that your style of kung fu has fast movement????????.
all of which makes my point that there is nothing wrong with kung fu,if you can get some movement in to it rather than the normal semi static stance.

on your other point, 2ft of movement is nowhere near enough if you are dealing with someone who punched in a movement pattern that takes them 4ft away from you. They will just keep jabbing you and moving out of range.

if you think what you are practising equals fast movement, then you have clearly never,seen someone who has quick movement. I can go backwards faster than you are going forwards. A,fact I'm happy to demonstrate should we ever end up on the,same,continent.
plus zig zag patterns are fine as long as your oppoinent,doesn't,zag, whilst you are,zigging. Punch you and move behind you

 

[JowGaWolf]

you don't seem to have a fixed point of view. In the other thread you said that kung fo can't cope with boxing style movement

You misunderstand what I'm saying. Most kung fu practitioners can't cope with boxing style movement because they don't train against that movement. If you can't read or understand your opponents movement then your chances of winning will almost be zero. Most martial arts classes are Style A vs Style A training, which means the Wing Chun guy gets really good at reading and picking up Wing Chun Movements. In a TKD school, the students train Style B vs Style B,which means that the TKD student gets really good at reading and picking up TKD Movements. In a boxing gym, the student trains Style C vs Style C, which means that the boxing student gets really good at reading and picking up Boxing Movements. You cannot win against a movement that you do not understand. You will freeze as your brain tries to understand the new movement it is dealing with. Even people who do boxing as a professional have a difficult time in hitting a boxer that is good at weaving. So if that's the case I don't know why you think that some Kung Fu guy who has never had to fight against that movement will be successful.

As a practical fighter I don't know why you would want to fight in the strengths of your opponent. #1 rule to fighting: Fight your opponent where he is weak, avoid fighting where he is strong. #2 rule to fighting: Fight where you are strong; avoid fighting where you are weak.

If you can't understand what I'm saying then there is nothing more I can do to help you understand. You seem to be the only one that is having difficulty in understanding what I'm saying.

Now your posting you doing a boxing style movement that is not allowed in your, style of kung fu

What are you talking about?
1. The drill that I'm doing is not a boxing style movement.
2. The movements in the drill are all found in Jow Ga as well as other types of martial arts.
3. The drill of shuffling forward 2 steps at an angle and stepping is a drill that I created based on the practical applications of #2.

I even showed you the stepping form which has similar movement and even stated that the stepping form doesn't make sense until students try to fight with it. I even showed you how it's done with Dean Chin Jow Ga lineage.

2ft of movement is nowhere near enough if you are dealing with someone who punched in a movement pattern that takes them 4ft away from you. They will just keep jabbing you and moving out of range.

That's because you don't understand the movement, and you spend too much time trying to argue with me instead of trying to understand what I'm saying. If you need to move more than 2ft to get to your opponent then your opponent is well out of range, and as of such there is no need to press the attack. In fighting the 2 ft is not the distance between my opponents face and my fist. It is the the distance between closest point of contact. Why would I attack someone who is 4 feet away from my closest point of contact?

if you think what you are practising equals fast movement, then you have clearly never,seen someone who has quick movement. I can go backwards faster than you are going forwards.

if you think what you are practising equals fast movement, then you have clearly never,seen someone who has quick movement. I can go backwards faster than you are going forwards.

Once again you are so desperate to argue with me that you don't read what I state. Here's exactly what I stated about that video "This was a light training day where we were focused on the technique of moving. You can tell by the video that I'm cruising and I'm not struggling to move nor am I'm trying to move fast."

You are getting to the point where I'm going to start ignoring you. If you have question about my training techniques then fine. If you don't like my training techniques then fine. But if all you want to do is argue about stuff that I didn't say then I'm going to put you on ignore.

plus zig zag patterns are fine as long as your oppoinent,doesn't,zag, whilst you are,zigging. Punch you and move behind you

This comment makes it clear to how much you don't understand.

I'm not doing a zig zag. I'm training multiple movement that can be done while in a horse stance .

1. The first shuffle is movement that trains cutting an angle. Which is why it's at an angle
2. The second shuffle is movement that trains forward direction. Which is it continues in the same direction.
3. The 3 movement train a root break or the initial step behind used in other techniques. As shown in the video below at the 0:31 mark.

A,fact I'm happy to demonstrate should we ever end up on the,same,continent.

To be honest I could care less and based on how you have responded, I wouldn't train with you, because you seem like the time who has to be punched in the face to believe what others are saying. At that point I'm no longer focused on teaching or sharing knowledge. I would be more focused on hurting you just to prove to you that you are wrong.

You can take what I said as truth or call me a fake. I no long longer care. Based on what you have said before, you'll probably end up on my ignore list with your next couple of comments.

 

[drop bear]

you don't seem to have a fixed point of view. In the other thread you said that kung fo can't cope with boxing style movement and then post another dozen times saying it can?????? . Now your posting you doing a boxing style movement that is not allowed in your,style of kung fu, to show that your style of kung fu has fast movement????????.
all of which makes my point that there is nothing wrong with kung fu,if you can get some movement in to it rather than the normal semi static stance.

on your other point, 2ft of movement is nowhere near enough if you are dealing with someone who punched in a movement pattern that takes them 4ft away from you. They will just keep jabbing you and moving out of range.

if you think what you are practising equals fast movement, then you have clearly never,seen someone who has quick movement. I can go backwards faster than you are going forwards. A,fact I'm happy to demonstrate should we ever end up on the,same,continent.
plus zig zag patterns are fine as long as your oppoinent,doesn't,zag, whilst you are,zigging. Punch you and move behind you

Plenty of low stance clumpy foot dudes out there who can strike. Dan Kelly as an example.

 

[jobo]

Plenty of low stance clumpy foot dudes there who can strike. Dan Kelly as an example.

well yea, you can dp any old tripe if you have a killer punch, you only have to catch them once.he is good despite being clumpy, I'm sure he doesn't deliberately train to increase his clumpyness

 

[drop bear]

well yea, you can dp any old tripe if you have a killer punch, you only have to catch them once.he is good despite being clumpy, I'm sure he doesn't deliberately train to increase his clumpyness

He also doesn't need to be agile for his system to work. A lot of MMAers sit low. And make it work.

 

[jobo]

He also doesn't need to be agile for his system to work. A lot of MMAers sit low. And make it work.

well as,above, if your slow and heavy, then you find a style of fighting that uses that to its best,advantage. I've had a fair few fights were I have pitted a speed and mobility against a lumbering but very strong oppoinent.

but surely you not suggesting taking someone who is fast mobile and,strong and training them to be,slow clumpy and strong. Which is more or less what the op is recommending by training them to fight in a low horse stance.
maybe hos style of kung fu was developed to help over weight middle age men fight and that's a good thing unless you are training fit round men to fight that way

 

[JowGaWolf]

Here you can see similar use of horse stance and movement while in a horse stance. In some of his movement you can see that he's able to cover a large distance in a short amount of time. In theory, and in general for punches one only needs to move back a few inches to avoid a punch (meaning punch hitting the face or body). In many cases shuffling is safer because it moves the entire body. Stepping back means that one leg is stationary which leaves it open to attack, which is usually the case for those who take narrow stances.

Here's another video showing similar movement while in horse stance. See the 2:20 mark

When it comes to horse stances, one has to think of function. Some people do a horse stance with the toes pointing out, but never think about. "Can I actually move efficiently with my toes pointing out."

One more from the boxing world.

 

[jobo]

Here you can see similar use of horse stance and movement while in a horse stance. In some of his movement you can see that he's able to cover a large distance in a short amount of time. In theory, and in general for punches one only needs to move back a few inches to avoid a punch (meaning punch hitting the face or body). In many cases shuffling is safer because it moves the entire body. Stepping back means that one leg is stationary which leaves it open to attack, which is usually the case for those who take narrow stances.

Here's another video showing similar movement while in horse stance. See the 2:20 mark

When it comes to horse stances, one has to think of function. Some people do a horse stance with the toes pointing out, but never think about. "Can I actually move efficiently with my toes pointing out."

One more from the boxing world.

you cant be seriously ,comparing the fast fluid ducking diving turning and bobing of a boxer with that flat footed one direction clumping you were doing.
if you we're moving like a boxer we wouldn't be having this conversation

 

[JowGaWolf]

When I train movement in my horse stance I make a rule that my feet are not allowed to talk to each other. The reason why is because it's a slower movement and it puts both of my legs in danger of a sweep. In order to make these movements faster, just move faster. Start off slow to get the feel for it, and then move quickly. Don't be concerned with trying to cover great distances. This method isn't used to chase someone down. For me personally I won't chase someone down for too long. My goal is always to overwhelm someone with in a short distance. If my opponent retreats, stop, retreat, then he won't be able to shake me. Because this movement is a series of fast single movements that have a beginning and end (not like the continuous movement of backpedaling), it makes it easier to track your opponent if he or she decides to cut an angle.

What I like about this movement other than being quick is that it I can quickly change directions from forward to moving left and right and backwards. It allows me to quickly advance and move of to the side or quickly retreat and move off to the side.

 

[JowGaWolf]

you cant be seriously ,comparing the fast fluid ducking diving turning and bobing of a boxer with that flat footed one direction clumping you were doing.
if you we're moving like a boxer we wouldn't be having this conversation

As I stated in the original post. "This was a light training day where we were focused on the technique of moving. You can tell by the video that I'm cruising and I'm not struggling to move nor am I'm trying to move fast."

You clearly lack any type of skill or quality analysis capability, since you can can't tell the difference between someone trying to move fast and someone not trying to move fast.

 

[jobo]

As I stated in the original post. "This was a light training day where we were focused on the technique of moving. You can tell by the video that I'm cruising and I'm not struggling to move nor am I'm trying to move fast."

You clearly lack any type of skill or quality analysis capability, since you can can't tell the difference between someone trying to move fast and someone not trying to move fast.

well there is the side issue that the only way to train your body to move quickly is to move it quickly, therefore slow training day is pointless

but even you you were to to that movement more quickly, all you would have is slightly quicker one directional clumping.
you wont suddenly develop fluid movement patterns

this whole thing started with you saying your,style won't cope with the quick movement of a boxer. Yet here we,are god knows many posts later with you insisting that there is nothing wrong with it

 

[drop bear]

well as,above, if your slow and heavy, then you find a style of fighting that uses that to its best,advantage. I've had a fair few fights were I have pitted a speed and mobility against a lumbering but very strong oppoinent.

but surely you not suggesting taking someone who is fast mobile and,strong and training them to be,slow clumpy and strong. Which is more or less what the op is recommending by training them to fight in a low horse stance.
maybe hos style of kung fu was developed to help over weight middle age men fight and that's a good thing unless you are training fit round men to fight that way

Is he doing that though? Or is it his own interpretation of what works here.

You are not going to make Dan Kelly a better striker by trying to make him May whether.

My point is you can make a low stance work. And make it work for top level strikers.

So low stances have to be considered a viable method.

So instead of trying to say the method doesn't work. You really need to look at why it works.

How you use that to shut down a more mobile or upright guy.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Is he doing that though? Or is it his own interpretation of what works here.

You are not going to make Dan Kelly a better striker by trying to make him May whether.

My point is you can make a low stance work. And make it work for top level strikers.

So low stances have to be considered a viable method.

So instead of trying to say the method doesn't work. You really need to look at why it works.

How you use that to shut down a more mobile or upright guy.

Don't waste your time he's the only one on this site that is having an issue with this. I've put him on ignore. I was just sharing some insight on some of my training with the horse stance in detail. Those who find value in it or want to try it, can keep it as knowledge or try it.

I've shown more than enough sparring videos and training videos to show that I do what I claim.

 

[jobo]

Is he doing that though? Or is it his own interpretation of what works here.

You are not going to make Dan Kelly a better striker by trying to make him May whether.

My point is you can make a low stance work. And make it work for top level strikers.

So low stances have to be considered a viable method.

So instead of trying to say the method doesn't work. You really need to look at why it works.

How you use that to shut down a more mobile or upright guy.

no it works for Dan BECAUSE he is a top level striker. If he,couldnt punch and he moved like a crab then he wouldn't have anything going for him at all

 

[drop bear]

no it works for Dan BECAUSE he is a top level striker. If he,couldnt punch and he moved like a crab then he wouldn't have anything going for him at all

You don't become a top level striker through magic.

It is a culmination of a bunch of different things.

One of them is your striking method.