The problem with "traditional" martial arts.

[JR 137]

In regards to strength training; I think this is a big part of the issue right here, unless you've got a big, professional martial arts gym there's no room for weights, etc. to do much efficient and effective strength training. Another related problem is that a lot of martial arts instructors don't actually know a lot about strength training and the mythology around that topic can be almost as bad as the mythology around some martial arts.

Class time is another big issue. I'm a huge proponent of strength training and believe it makes a big difference in pretty much any physical pursuit. Personally, I don't want to spend a lot of time in my martial arts class working on strength training - I REALLY don't want to trade limited training time for marginally effective strength training. I can do a better job on my own and now that I'm older I don't want any extra wear and tear on my body that doesn't produce strong results. That being said, I'm very happy with physically challenging classes that really make me sweat. Sparring or drills with minimal rest is great, especially as their own class or in the later part of class after technique focused training has been done with a fresh mind and body.

And to add to that, if I may...
There’s also the time factor outside the dojo. I’ve got enough free time to get in the dojo twice a week. A full time job, a wife and 5 and 7 year old children don’t allow much time to do whatever I choose. So it’s either go to the gym or the dojo. And I have no desire to combine the two at the dojo. The hour to an hour and a half of just karate seems short enough. Replace half of that with weights? Nope. I’d love to alternate dojo days and weight room days 6 days a week, and even do both once or twice a week. But my name is not Tattoo and I don’t see planes because I’m not on Fantasy Island (cheap Night at the Roxbury reference there).

And, a lot of people join a dojo because they don’t like a traditional gym. I’d love to do both, but I’m in an either/or position currently.

 

[jobo]

In regards to strength training; I think this is a big part of the issue right here, unless you've got a big, professional martial arts gym there's no room for weights, etc. to do much efficient and effective strength training. Another related problem is that a lot of martial arts instructors don't actually know a lot about strength training and the mythology around that topic can be almost as bad as the mythology around some martial arts.

Class time is another big issue. I'm a huge proponent of strength training and believe it makes a big difference in pretty much any physical pursuit. Personally, I don't want to spend a lot of time in my martial arts class working on strength training - I REALLY don't want to trade limited training time for marginally effective strength training. I can do a better job on my own and now that I'm older I don't want any extra wear and tear on my body that doesn't produce strong results. That being said, I'm very happy with physically challenging classes that really make me sweat. Sparring or drills with minimal rest is great, especially as their own class or in the later part of class after technique focused training has been done with a fresh mind and body.

Well there's certainly a lot of babble about muscle growth, but the science of strength is pretty much understood, lift , pull push ETAL at close to your maximum and you WILL get stronger, body weight, yours or someone else's is as good as dumb bell's,, get the Fat bloKe on your back and hOp round the,dojo,

By its very nature of using close to max strengh, strength training is very short duration, if you can do it more than 5 times, it's not heavy enough. or do a single pull up that lasts a minute, you can't get a lot shorter that that

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I think there's at least an implied goal of being able to fight if your learning a " fighting " art, much as someone taking swimming lessons you can assume that some where in their motivation is a desire to swim

Not all things most of us on MT would call "martial arts" are fight focused. That would be the original distinction, but as arts have branched, we've applied that term to a wider range of practices.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Well there's certainly a lot of babble about muscle growth, but the science of strength is pretty much understood, lift , pull push ETAL at close to your maximum and you WILL get stronger, body weight, yours or someone else's is as good as dumb bell's,, get the Fat bloKe on your back and hOp round the,dojo,

By its very nature of using close to max strengh, strength training is very short duration, if you can do it more than 5 times, it's not heavy enough. or do a single pull up that lasts a minute, you can't get a lot shorter that that

Easy to say. Harder to organize in a group.

 

[jobo]

Not all things most of us on MT would call "martial arts" are fight focused. That would be the original distinction, but as arts have branched, we've applied that term to a wider range of practices.

It would make an interesting questionare, ask maers, if they have no interest in being better able to defend themselves, I'm willing to bet a pound, that it's not a large % ?

 

[jobo]

Easy to say. Harder to organize in a group.

You just have to get enough fat blokes to go round

 

[Gerry Seymour]

It would make an interesting questionare, ask maers, if they have no interest in being better able to defend themselves, I'm willing to bet a pound, that it's not a large % ?

If they are studying Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido, it's probably not high on their list. Same for fencing.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

You just have to get enough fat blokes to go round

That's getting easier to do in the US.

 

[jobo]

You just have to get enough fat blokes to go round

I'm not arguing you should do it, rather the argument about not having the time is bogus,

I've got a really good bus work out, gets me a few odd looks but hell, who cares

 

[jobo]

If they are studying Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido, it's probably not high on their list. Same for fencing.

Fencing takes an enormous level ofStrength \ fitness and the reactions of a fighter pilot, I'm bEtting a fEncers can put uP a robust defence

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I'm not arguing you should do it, rather the argument about not having the time is bogus,

I've got a really good bus work out, gets me a few odd looks but hell, who cares

It's not just the time to complete the exercises - it's the organization. Two-man exercises of any sort take more organizing, and new students seem to take forever to learn that kind of thing. It's pretty easy to get a decent strength workout (even for a class) completed in 5-10 minutes if everyone knows the material. Easier to organize effectively with some weights to work with.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Fencing takes an enormous level ofStrength \ fitness and the reactions of a fighter pilot, I'm bEtting a fEncers can put uP a robust defence

That's beside the point. You said "interest in being better able to defend themselves" - I doubt that's what drives any significant number of people to fencing, given that a sword of any sort is generally not available.

 

[jobo]

It's not just the time to complete the exercises - it's the organization. Two-man exercises of any sort take more organizing, and new students seem to take forever to learn that kind of thing. It's pretty easy to get a decent strength workout (even for a class) completed in 5-10 minutes if everyone knows the material. Easier to organize effectively with some weights to work with.

I'm not say you should teach it , I'm saying the posters who claim they don't have time to do a strength work out are just making excuses

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I'm not say you should teach it , I'm saying the posters who claim they don't have time to do a strength work out are just making excuses

Ah - misread your point, then. And I agree, even being someone who sometimes lets it fall by the wayside. I have a small collection of kettlebells, and can get in a decent strength workout in just a few minutes if I just stop and take the few minutes to do so.

 

[jobo]

It's not just the time to complete the exercises - it's the organization. Two-man exercises of any sort take more organizing, and new students seem to take forever to learn that kind of thing. It's pretty easy to get a decent strength workout (even for a class) completed in 5-10 minutes if everyone knows the material. Easier to organize effectively with some weights to work with.

I used to run management training courses , and the first excercis e, was to tell them to put themselves in to 5groups of 4, , it was chaos, the more senior the management the more chaotic it was

 

[MetalBoar]

Well there's certainly a lot of babble about muscle growth, but the science of strength is pretty much understood, lift , pull push ETAL at close to your maximum and you WILL get stronger, body weight, yours or someone else's is as good as dumb bell's,, get the Fat bloKe on your back and hOp round the,dojo,

By its very nature of using close to max strengh, strength training is very short duration, if you can do it more than 5 times, it's not heavy enough. or do a single pull up that lasts a minute, you can't get a lot shorter that that

So I strongly agree with most of this and particularly the part I put in bold, and I'm also constantly surprised by the number of people who don't get this fundamental bit. There are also a lot of people who more or less understand this that try to get around the limitations of body weight exercises with things like plyometrics, hand stand push ups or pistol squats to increase the effort involved in the movement. While these things can have the desired effect of increasing muscular inroad they come with the trade off of increasing risk of injury. " get the Fat bloKe on your back and hOp round the,dojo" falls in this category for me. The other problem is that it's tough to get progressive resistance from any of these methods.

I know my concerns regarding injury may seem strange in a martial arts context, but I think its one thing to get a nose broken or such in a sparring session where the risks are necessary to the learning and another to injure a knee or tear up your rotator cuff doing sub-optimal strength training.

Easy to say. Harder to organize in a group.

I also think this is a valid point.

 

[Punchy]

I used to run management training courses , and the first excercis e, was to tell them to put themselves in to 5groups of 4, , it was chaos, the more senior the management the more chaotic it was

I've often thought one of the hardest things to teach people is how to line up properly.

 

[jobo]

So I strongly agree with most of this and particularly the part I put in bold, and I'm also constantly surprised by the number of people who don't get this fundamental bit. There are also a lot of people who more or less understand this that try to get around the limitations of body weight exercises with things like plyometrics, hand stand push ups or pistol squats to increase the effort involved in the movement. While these things can have the desired effect of increasing muscular inroad they come with the trade off of increasing risk of injury. " get the Fat bloKe on your back and hOp round the,dojo" falls in this category for me. The other problem is that it's tough to get progressive resistance from any of these methods.

I know my concerns regarding injury may seem strange in a martial arts context, but I think its one thing to get a nose broken or such in a sparring session where the risks are necessary to the learning and another to injure a knee or tear up your rotator cuff doing sub-optimal strength training.

I also think this is a valid point.

Well it's not, You just adjust your hands or feet to make it more diffocult,eventually you run out of adjustment, but by that time you be ridiculous ly, strong,

I have a short length of rope, with a loop at each end, that gets used for very nearly all my exercises, I'm generally trying to break the rope, which as it has a quarter ton breaking strain isn't easy,

So for instance, I sit on a bench, holding a loop on each hand, put my foot in the rope, and kick my leg straight, whilst pulling with my arms, and try and break the rope, as my arms get stronger, it's more of a work out for my leg, as my leg gets stronger it's more of a work out for my arms, continue for ever or until I break the rope

 

[hoshin1600]

I think there's at least an implied goal of being able to fight if your learning a " fighting " art, much as someone taking swimming lessons you can assume that some where in their motivation is a desire to swim

It would make an interesting questionare, ask maers, if they have no interest in being better able to defend themselves, I'm willing to bet a pound, that it's not a large % ?

thats not 100 % self evident. lots of people say things. if you want to know the truth you have to look at their actions not what they say. many people say they want to lose weight, but look at their diet. they say they want to get in shape but what is their work out routine? the truth is in their actions. so while they say they want to learn to defend themselves,, do they really? its been my experience that most DO NOT want to put in the required effort to get there. however they are more than happy to participate in an activity that gives the impression and image of prowess in fighting skills. its not the same thing as actually learning self defense.

 

[jobo]

thats not 100 % self evident. lots of people say things. if you want to know the truth you have to look at their actions not what they say. many people say they want to lose weight, but look at their diet. they say they want to get in shape but what is their work out routine? the truth is in their actions. so while they say they want to learn to defend themselves,, do they really? its been my experience that most DO NOT want to put in the required effort to get there. however they are more than happy to participate in an activity that gives the impression and image of prowess in fighting skills. its not the same thing as actually learning self defense.

That's rather two separate issues, it's fair to say people who are on a diet want to lose weight, if they do or not and that people who swing a kettle bell about want to be fitter, if they achieve it or not, so people who learn a fighting art, most certainly want to be better a fighting, if they ever manage that it not.

If they don't achieve that, it could well be down to not putting enough effort in or more likely they buy in to some tma, bull, and are destined to fail from the beginning,as the art is intrinsically flawed and no amount of effort is going to rescue it. that's if effort is even required, beyond say the effort needed to do a slow dance