The problem with "traditional" martial arts.

[Gerry Seymour]

I don't think we are disagreeing ? , I'm sure that a pursuit of physical fitness was a thing in the early ma, and that has to a large part been lost in the modern/ western manifestation,

You can get good strength with out barbells, just lifting yourself and Or various heavy objects will do it, perhaps not as well or as conveniently as a fully equipped gym,

But that aspect seems to be LACking as well from a lot of tma, but what has changed greatly is our understanding of performance training, it's not just a case of doing the excersise, it's how it's done and how often.

If I go to the boxing or mmA s gym then a see people devoting a great deal of time to bench pressing or squats or hours of pounding a heavy bag.

I visit to a tma, has little in the way of fitness/ strength training, certainly it will improve fitness, if your not very fit to start of with, you won't prepared you to fight like hard training of someone who is training to fight, with out that you always loose to a mma, buff who has

I think part of the issue is comparing the more time-intensive study of decades ago with the 2-4 hours in the dojo most hobbyists give today. It's not really feasible to teach MA and have fitness classes in that amount of time. I do more than most instructors I know, and less than I'd do if I had students 5-10 hours a week. So, the fitness aspect remains important, but ceases to be as much a part of the training. At most schools (including most of my training through the years), fitness is only found in the warm-up (usually less than 10 minutes) and however hard you work in class.

I'm not sure there's a really good answer to this. My "warm up" takes about 10-15 minutes each class if I do the whole thing. I can do that (and could maybe do a touch more) because I have 90-minute classes.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

As Rackemann pointed out, "traditional" styles very often don't include any "live" training. They very often don't spar. Some do. But those are often the ones that have "updated" the curriculum to some extent to be more "modern."

I don't think that's a function of the style in most cases. It's a training choice, and is a function of the instructor. Take any of those styles and add some live training, and it's still the same style (probably with some mechanical updates to match what's discovered in live training).

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Other than live-blade sword arts and the like, what are these “traditional styles” that aren’t sparring? I’ve heard about them, yet haven’t come across any.

We also need to define sparring a bit. Dancing around and playing tag with oversized protective equipment is sparring, but does it really teach anything useful in actual combat? I’m not bashing protective equipment, I’m bashing wearing stuff that falsely teaches the students they can take a punch, and the punches they’re throwing wouldn’t kill an ant. And I’m bashing stopping and resetting sparring every time the slightest contact is made.

But not doing any sparring at all? I’ve never seen it.

I've seen it, though rarely. Most schools I've seen have some sort of sparring. Don't look for anything truly live in most aiki-oriented schools. And IME an art that is foundationally grappling-first is likely to get short shrift in the strikes sparring (and some even skip out on the resistive grappling).

 

[Tony Dismukes]

How the training is conducted is an issue about the instructor and is a separate issue from he system itself. You don’t blame the style for poor training. If poor training is being done, you blame the instructor.

This raises an interesting question. What defines a style? Is it the techniques? Is it the underlying body mechanics? The tactical mindset? Are the training methods part of it?

In BJJ, live grappling is central enough to the art that if a given school never did live grappling I would hesitate to call it a BJJ school - even if they taught all the same technique I do.

In Aikido (other than Tomiki Aikido), live sparring is not generally part of the practice. For those who believe that sparring is important, does that mean all the instructors in the Aikikai are bad teachers?

In most CMA, solo forms are part of the style, perhaps even being seen by some as defining the art. If a given instructor of Tai Chi or Hung Gar or White Crane decides that forms are a bad training method and eliminates all of them from the curriculum, then is that school still teaching the same art as schools which teach more traditionally?

I'm curious as to your thoughts.

 

[geezer]

In most CMA, solo forms are part of the style, perhaps even being seen by some as defining the art. If a given instructor of Tai Chi or Hung Gar or White Crane decides that forms are a bad training method and eliminates all of them from the curriculum, then is that school still teaching the same art as schools which teach more traditionally?

I'm curious as to your thoughts.

My old Wing Tsun sifu said that most traditional martial arts training consisted of three basics: 1. Forms, 2. Single and paired drills teaching application, 3. Sparring.

Wing Tsun (also WC/VT), he claimed, had an advantage in that it added a critical fourth element of training, Chi-sau.

Competitive martial arts like BJJ, MMA, Muay Thai, and Boxing have generally don't do forms and place far heavier emphasis on sparring and fighting/competition. Meanwhile, many traditional martial arts have come to do little or no sparring.

Whether or not forms are necessary or even helpful is only one part of the debate. Perhaps more important is the loss of sparring and resistant training from the old formula. In WT/WC/VT we seem to have replaced it with excessive emphasis on chi-sau. This was not the way the art was intended to be taught, but it is great for business if none of your students want to fight. Hey almost nobody likes to get beat up --I know I don't, but sparring doesn't have to be like fighting. If you approach it as controlled training, people actually like it, or at least accept it rather like doing any hard exercise.

After years of following association guidelines and not pushing sparring, I'm trying to change things a bit with my own little club. Unfortunately, people tend not to show up on sparring day. Change will have to come gradually, I guess. One of the biggest problems for students, aside from the initial fear of getting hit, is their disappointment at seeing that their sifu can be hit too. Wait! Isn't kung fu magic? I'm trying to shift paradigms here. Apparently sifus are supposed to be perfect. Maybe if I have them call me coach instead?

BTW too much emphasis on competition can also destroy the effectiveness of a martial art. It all depends on the rule set and whether there is a strong desire to keep the art real. Examples of competitive martial sports that have lost touch with combat reality would include karate or TKD point fighting and modern sport fencing.

 

[Martial D]

Let's see ...
Aikido (just about all branches other than Tomiki Aikido)
The various Bujinkan arts and their offshoots
Many (possibly most) koryu arts
I'm not so up on the CMA scene, but I believe most branches of Tai Chi don't do actual sparring (push hands can be sparring-adjacent, but it's not really sparring)

Add the vast majority of wing chun schools to that list. Rolling hands is not sparring.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

"traditional" styles very often don't include any "live" training.

The traditional styles use different kind of live training. The 1st time that I ever spar when I was in my high school long fist class. The sparring rule was "1 person attack and 1 person defense". IMO, that's a much better starting point for sparring.

 

[mrt2]

After years of following association guidelines and not pushing sparring, I'm trying to change things a bit with my own little club. Unfortunately, people tend not to show up on sparring day. Change will have to come gradually, I guess. One of the biggest problems for students, aside from the initial fear of getting hit, is their disappointment at seeing that their sifu can be hit too. Wait! Isn't kung fu magic? I'm trying to shift paradigms here. Apparently sifus are supposed to be perfect. Maybe if I have them call me coach instead?

BTW too much emphasis on competition can also destroy the effectiveness of a martial art. It all depends on the rule set and whether there is a strong desire to keep the art real. Examples of competitive martial sports that have lost touch with combat reality would include karate or TKD point fighting and modern sport fencing.

My TKD teacher doesn't always announce sparring, so any day can be sparring day.

 

[mrt2]

The traditional styles use different kind of live training. The 1st time that I ever spar when I was in my high school long fist class. The sparring rule was "1 person attack and 1 person defense". IMO, that's a much better starting point for sparring.

We do drills like that sometime, but as far as I can tell, without free sparring, you could easily get into some bad habits, like dropping your guard when you attack. .

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

We do drills like that sometime, but as far as I can tell, without free sparring, you could easily get into some bad habits, like dropping your guard when you attack. .

That's just one kind of sparring. Other sparring can be:

If you can

- punch my head within 20 punches,
- kick my body within 20 kicks,
- grab my leading leg within 1 minute,
- put your hand on my throat within 1 minute,
- get me into head lock within 1 minute,
- sweep me down within 1 minute,
- ...

you win that round, otherwise you lose that round.

Everyday the game rule will changed. IMO, this kind of sparring can force people to develop new skills instead of using old skill over and over.

After 6 years of MA training, I have seen people who spars exactly the same way as he did 6 years ago. He uses no new MA skill.

I just don't believe the modern way sparring is the best training method.

 

[Flying Crane]

This raises an interesting question. What defines a style? Is it the techniques? Is it the underlying body mechanics? The tactical mindset? Are the training methods part of it?

In BJJ, live grappling is central enough to the art that if a given school never did live grappling I would hesitate to call it a BJJ school - even if they taught all the same technique I do.

In Aikido (other than Tomiki Aikido), live sparring is not generally part of the practice. For those who believe that sparring is important, does that mean all the instructors in the Aikikai are bad teachers?

In most CMA, solo forms are part of the style, perhaps even being seen by some as defining the art. If a given instructor of Tai Chi or Hung Gar or White Crane decides that forms are a bad training method and eliminates all of them from the curriculum, then is that school still teaching the same art as schools which teach more traditionally?

I'm curious as to your thoughts.

Very good points, and I think there is overlap where certain practices, such as sparring, can be included in the training, or not, and it does not define the style.

I would say that if an aikido sensei decid d to work a form of sparring into their methods, then it is still aikido.

My white crane sifu has said that if you just want to learn to fight, he can teach you all you need in a year to a year and a half, with no forms included. It’s still white crane.

 

[JR 137]

My TKD teacher doesn't always announce sparring, so any day can be sparring day.

Practically every day is “sparring day” in my dojo. Our CI actually apologizes most times when we’re onto something and run out of time to spar at the end.

We may not do sparring the entire sessions, but we definitely go at least one time through the line; ie pair off, then move onto the next person. Even the lower ranks who don’t officially spar yet do very light/non-contact sparring; ie block what’s thrown at them, but both parties stop just short of actually hitting if they missed the block.

 

[JR 137]

And for the record, I am utterly unconvinced that sparring is a necessity for developing good skills.

Sparring can be a useful tool in the training toolbox. There are lots of ways to spar and they are not all created equal. Some are good, others are useless. But sparring in any form is not an absolute necessity for developing good skills. It is given more importance than it deserves.

If there’s no sparring in any form, how does the student know that their skills actually mean anything useful in an actual encounter? Forget the ring and the cage for a second. Blocking the air has its uses, but without actually blocking a strike, how is that actually supposed to work and be effective if it’s never been done against anyone actually trying to hit them? How is punching or kicking the air going to translate to actually hitting a moving and blocking target?

Perfecting a baseball swing without ever seeing live pitching isn’t going to make anyone be able to hit a baseball. No matter how long they’ve practiced that swing and how technically flawless it appears. Hitting off of a tee (the equivalent of hitting a bag?) isn’t going to work either, no matter how far they can hit that ball off the tee. The only way to be able to actually hit a pitch is to have someone pitch.

You can do all the footwork drills in the world, shadowbox until your arms and legs fall off, etc. While it’s a good base, none of it means anything until you’re able to actually use it against an opponent. Just like the baseball analogy.

The overwhelmingly most common mistake I see newbies make during sparring (especially contact sparring) is breaking their posture when stuff comes at them - turning away, putting their head down, going into a standing fetal position, etc. Actually that’s usually after they’ve gone too far straight backwards and they’re out of room. Look at the “traditional martial art masters” on YouTube and the like who get challenged and subsequently embarrassed by the MMA fighter. See what those guys who get owned do most of the time? Same thing I just described. Maybe those are the guys who think sparring is useless. I’m not talking about every TMAist nor master, but we’ve all seen who I’m actually talking about, hence the “traditional martial arts masters” in quotations.

Sparring only becomes useless if you’ve done it enough and are proficient at it. Even then, you’ve got to keep sharp, just like a batter still has to get in the batting cage regularly so they keep their eye for hitting.

Without sparring, it’s just LARPing. All IMO.

Edit: I’ve got nothing against people who don’t want to spar. And I’ve got nothing against arts that never spar. They’re not for me; that doesn’t mean they shouldn’t be allowed. However, if someone doesn’t ever spar or has never sparred is saying that sparring is useless and doesn’t teach any actual MA or fighting skill, all I can do is shake my head and walk away. Much like if someone told me the world is flat.

 

[mrt2]

That's just one kind of sparring. Other sparring can be:

If you can

- punch my head within 20 punches,
- kick my body within 20 kicks,
- grab my leading leg within 1 minute,
- put your hand on my throat within 1 minute,
- get me into head lock within 1 minute,
- sweep me down within 1 minute,
- ...

you win that round, otherwise you lose that round.

Everyday the game rule will changed. IMO, this kind of sparring can force people to develop new skills instead of using old skill over and over.

After 6 years of MA training, I have seen people who spars exactly the same way as he did 6 years ago. He uses no new MA skill.

I just don't believe the modern way sparring is the best training method.

Sounds complicated.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Sounds complicated.

Sounds useful. Its what you should be thinking about when youre sparring, but now someone else is holding you accountable to what youre working on.

 

[MetalBoar]

Whether or not forms are necessary or even helpful is only one part of the debate. Perhaps more important is the loss of sparring and resistant training from the old formula. In WT/WC/VT we seem to have replaced it with excessive emphasis on chi-sau. This was not the way the art was intended to be taught, but it is great for business if none of your students want to fight. Hey almost nobody likes to get beat up --I know I don't, but sparring doesn't have to be like fighting. If you approach it as controlled training, people actually like it, or at least accept it rather like doing any hard exercise.

I think this is one of the challenges that TMA schools are currently really struggling with. I first moved to Seattle just before UFC 1. When I got here there were so many martial arts schools that I wanted to train with I didn't know where to start. As time has passed, and MMA has gotten so much more of the cultural mind share, it seems like there has been a lot of self sorting going on. Those who really want to mix it up and spar have chosen BJJ/MMA gyms and a lot of TMA schools have done less and less sparring as their remaining students have had less and less interest in it. It's gotten to where it's kind of tough to find a TMA school that does much sparring here, but I think a lot of that is economic pressure and cultural expectations rather than the nature of TMA.

 

[mrt2]

I think this is one of the challenges that TMA schools are currently really struggling with. I first moved to Seattle just before UFC 1. When I got here there were so many martial arts schools that I wanted to train with I didn't know where to start. As time has passed, and MMA has gotten so much more of the cultural mind share, it seems like there has been a lot of self sorting going on. Those who really want to mix it up and spar have chosen BJJ/MMA gyms and a lot of TMA schools have done less and less sparring as their remaining students have had less and less interest in it. It's gotten to where it's kind of tough to find a TMA school that does much sparring here, but I think a lot of that is economic pressure and cultural expectations rather than the nature of TMA.

I think you might be right. When I used to practice TSD in the 80s, there were a lot of younger guys signing up, myself included. I suspect some percentage of that cohort who signed up with a TMA school in the past to learn to fight might be going more towards MMA these days.

 

[KPM]

Other than live-blade sword arts and the like, what are these “traditional styles” that aren’t sparring? I’ve heard about them, yet haven’t come across any.


But not doing any sparring at all? I’ve never seen it.

Then you must not get out much! Tony already listed many. Do you think the average Tai Chi school features sparring? The average Aikido school? And of those traditional arts that do actually spar, I would love to see footage where you can actually identify the art being used rather than it looking like a form of sloppy kickboxing.

 

[JR 137]

Then you must not get out much! Tony already listed many. Do you think the average Tai Chi school features sparring? The average Aikido school? And of those traditional arts that do actually spar, I would love to see footage where you can actually identify the art being used rather than it looking like a form of sloppy kickboxing.

Come to think of it, I’ve visited an Aikido place and a Chinese place (can’t remember the exact style), and they didn’t spar. I didn’t base them not ever sparring on one class that I watched though.

As far as traditional martial arts schools...
All the karate, kempo, TKD and judo schools I’ve seen spar. I didn’t care much for the TKD and kempo sparring I saw, but at least they sparred. One or two karate schools had horrible sparring too - all point fighting, but at least there’s someone throwing punches and kicks at you.

I’d get out more, but I really like where I am, so what’s the point?

Edit: the only tai chi I’ve seen in person is the non-MA tai chi. And Tony’s post was a response to mine, hence why he quoted the same post you did when he replied.

 

[Flying Crane]

If there’s no sparring in any form, how does the student know that their skills actually mean anything useful in an actual encounter? Forget the ring and the cage for a second. Blocking the air has its uses, but without actually blocking a strike, how is that actually supposed to work and be effective if it’s never been done against anyone actually trying to hit them? How is punching or kicking the air going to translate to actually hitting a moving and blocking target?

Perfecting a baseball swing without ever seeing live pitching isn’t going to make anyone be able to hit a baseball. No matter how long they’ve practiced that swing and how technically flawless it appears. Hitting off of a tee (the equivalent of hitting a bag?) isn’t going to work either, no matter how far they can hit that ball off the tee. The only way to be able to actually hit a pitch is to have someone pitch.

You can do all the footwork drills in the world, shadowbox until your arms and legs fall off, etc. While it’s a good base, none of it means anything until you’re able to actually use it against an opponent. Just like the baseball analogy.

The overwhelmingly most common mistake I see newbies make during sparring (especially contact sparring) is breaking their posture when stuff comes at them - turning away, putting their head down, going into a standing fetal position, etc. Actually that’s usually after they’ve gone too far straight backwards and they’re out of room. Look at the “traditional martial art masters” on YouTube and the like who get challenged and subsequently embarrassed by the MMA fighter. See what those guys who get owned do most of the time? Same thing I just described. Maybe those are the guys who think sparring is useless. I’m not talking about every TMAist nor master, but we’ve all seen who I’m actually talking about, hence the “traditional martial arts masters” in quotations.

Sparring only becomes useless if you’ve done it enough and are proficient at it. Even then, you’ve got to keep sharp, just like a batter still has to get in the batting cage regularly so they keep their eye for hitting.

Without sparring, it’s just LARPing. All IMO.

Edit: I’ve got nothing against people who don’t want to spar. And I’ve got nothing against arts that never spar. They’re not for me; that doesn’t mean they shouldn’t be allowed. However, if someone doesn’t ever spar or has never sparred is saying that sparring is useless and doesn’t teach any actual MA or fighting skill, all I can do is shake my head and walk away. Much like if someone told me the world is flat.

Who says you are punching and blocking air?

There are all kinds of interactive partner drills with all kinds of contact.