The price for a private lesson?

[Yamabushii]

Irrelevant. I got a 2 year degree at an inexpensive community college, worked at that to pay for my BS at a more expensive university, worked at that to pay for graduate school. I walked everywhere, I ate the cheapest crap I could find, I worked multiple jobs, and I didn't party. To this day, I cannot eat Ramen; it tastes like poverty.

Yes, education debt is a problem. But at the same time, I've seen too many students working as (for example) a scribe in our ED who use student loans to pay for things like summers "studying" in Europe. Where they take one trash class and do a lot of tourist stuff. They eat out frequently, have the newest smartphones, and drive really nice cars. All paid for with student loans.

You can take on a mountain of debt, or you can make sacrifices and have little or no debt. Many of the people who complain about their student debt have also buried themselves in other debt. Because they just HAVE to have that new phone, or car, or a bigger house... they never learned the importance of delayed gratification.

I retired at 61. At that point, I'd been undergoing cancer treatment for 12 years, and just couldn't keep up the pace in the ED any more. We could afford to do so because we had long made it a point not to waste money on interest. Debt? We have a mortgage. We have two Jeeps and a Corvette, all heavily modified, and all paid off. Credit cards? We have them, mostly for the benefit to credit scores. But we never carry a balance. Never. Other than the mortgage we owe nothing to anybody.

Before you tell me that it is no longer possible to do this, I will just say that all ten of our kids went to college. One has an engineering PhD. Another an MS in Math. Another a Masters in Public Health. One is working on her MS in Education. Three of them got two year degrees and two of those are using those degrees (Radiology) to pursue a BS; one in CT and one in MRI. None of them took on a pile of debt.

Sounds like you've lived a pretty successful life. It's one thing to do it for yourself, but another to be able to successfully instill that into your children as well.

*Edit - I forgot to add that while I still wholeheartedly commend you for your hard work, my question regarding how long ago that was is very much still relevant. Granted, from what you've explained, you didn't waste a money as you kept your sights steadily on what mattered most. That will certainly help anyone no matter the era, but how much it helps is certainly a factor as well.To discount today's inflation-ridden economy as a major factor in impacting our lives is a skewed perspective. I remember back in '93, my father bought a 5,500 sq. ft. home on a 3-acre property for $235k. Mind you, this was only 30 minutes away from NYC. He was probably making somewhere between $250-$300k in annual salary at the time. For my day job, I'm in the same line of work today as he used to be back then and I don't make close to that much. Even if I did, consider that at his time, his annual salary was enough to pay off his house in 1 year, whereas today that same house in that same area is likely going for about $1.5m today.

I do get your underlying point that keeping your spending limited while keeping your eyes focused on what matters is key, but I simply wanted to add in that we live in a very different, cutthroat economy today. Everything is expensive. Most people can't afford to live comfortably off one job. Job wages haven't changed much in 30 years other than some states increasing their minimum wage, but that doesn't affect the shrinking middle class, and it's also leading to less employees being hired for lower end working-class jobs. This is also affecting many martial arts schools as their own costs and overhead are also increasing.

 

[drop bear]

Just got a quote on a private lesson that was $75/hr

Yeah. Thats not over the top.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Just got a quote on a private lesson that was $75/hr

A MA teacher charge $75/hr to a plumber student for his private lesson. His plumber student charge $85/hr for servicing his teacher's plumbing job.

Does this mean that MA knowledge is less valuable than plumbing knowledge?

Average plumber cost $45 – $150 average hourly rate

2024 Plumber Cost Per Hour | Average Rates To Hire A Plumber

Plumbers charge per hour or by job, with hourly rates of $45 to $150. Our plumbing services price list covers service calls, trip costs, and call out fees.

homeguide.com

Of course a MA teacher may get better pay than a dishwasher does ($12 - $14). It depends on where you may put MA teacher in the job market.

dishwasher hourly pay - Bing

Intelligent search from Bing makes it easier to quickly find what you’re looking for and rewards you.

www.bing.com

 

[JowGaWolf]

If Conor McGregor was so poor that he could only afford to eat Ramen noodles every day, do you think he could reach to what he has today?

He had help.

Rich people don't have to fight out of necessity. Many combat sports champions started from poverty. Pacquiao is another example.

Excerpt from "Manny Pacquiao: A True Rags To Riches Story:"

I think there are 2 sides for this. There are people like us who want to take martial arts classes and then there are people who want to fight in order to get out of poverty.

Two different cases. In terms of professional fighting. Poor people have a drive to participate in sports. In short it's a way out of poverty.

People who are poor and want to take a martial arts class or go to a martial arts schools aren't trying to go to those schools in order to get out of poverty.

If I was young, in poverty, and had a boxing gym close by. Then I could probably get in there with no problem so long as I had the skill and drive. I don't know about anyone else, but being poor is a heck of a motivator to do something to get out of that poverty. At that point any gym knows that I would do almost anything short of selling my soul to fight my way out of poverty.

This same thing can't be said for me wanting to take a martial arts class. When I was in financial trouble, I couldn't afford the martial arts class so I focused on getting a better job while working the low paying one that I had. If I was going to make money by learning fighting skills, it wouldn't be at a Jow Ga kung fu school.

Seriously, we just had a conversation about how some of you don't charge money to teach or that you charge very little. That's a pretty reliable sign that no one is going to get rich from what we do. Especially if you aren't willing to teach in a way that will earn maximum profit.

 

[Taiji Rebel]

A MA teacher charge $75/hr to a plumber student for his private lesson. His plumber student charge $85/hr for servicing his teacher's plumbing job.

Does this mean that MA knowledge is less valuable than plumbing knowledge?

Average plumber cost $45 – $150 average hourly rate

2024 Plumber Cost Per Hour | Average Rates To Hire A Plumber

Plumbers charge per hour or by job, with hourly rates of $45 to $150. Our plumbing services price list covers service calls, trip costs, and call out fees.

homeguide.com

Of course a MA teacher may get better pay than a dishwasher does ($12 - $14). It depends on where you may put MA teacher in the job market.

dishwasher hourly pay - Bing

Intelligent search from Bing makes it easier to quickly find what you’re looking for and rewards you.

www.bing.com

Comparing plumbing with martial arts is not a good one. Martial arts training is not an essential in life. When you seek out a plumber you have a real problem which requires an immediate solution. Martial arts training is not even in the same league. If you are serious about making money from your skills then comparative pricing is not the way to go, you really need to understand your value and be able to demonstrate how your teachings are the solution to another's problems.

 

[Taiji Rebel]

Seriously, we just had a conversation about how some of you don't charge money to teach or that you charge very little. That's a pretty reliable sign that no one is going to get rich from what we do. Especially if you aren't willing to teach in a way that will earn maximum profit.

If seeking maximum profit is driving your desire to teach the martial arts then I would definitely advise potential students to search elsewhere for lessons.

 

[JowGaWolf]

If seeking maximum profit is driving your desire to teach the martial arts then I would definitely advise potential students to search elsewhere for lessons.

Your statement is why I always say Martial Arts teachers should not run the business of their school. Maximizing Profits is where supply = demand. Depending on the demand for a martial arts system your profits may be maximized at $300 a month or at $20. Profit is not bad. People assume that just because someone is Maximizing Profits that, they offer low-quality teaching or bad people. Maximum Profit supported my desire to keep the school open and to ensure that my Sifu back then would always have a school that he could claim even if he were only able to be at the school once or twice a year.

Here's what's possible when you maximize profit as a Martial Arts Teacher:
1. It will be possible to either spend less or no "out of pocket" money in order to run the school.
When I ran the finances for my last school. The school was able to pay rent for space thanks to making a profit.

2. It will be possible to move from backyard and park training to affording a building or training space that will allow training to continue during any type of weather and time of day. Having the indoor training space makes it possible to add training equipment to help make training more efficient and effective

3. The money that you make from profit can then be used to provide additional services to students free of charge for them.
When I ran the finances for my last school. 100% of the profit went back into the school and was used to purchase training gear that all students could use or it can be used to replace damaged gear.

4. The money that you make from profit makes it easier to provide free or reduced cost classes without that student being a burden to the survival having enough money to pay rent.
When I ran the finances for my last school, The school made enough money to grandfather in current students at their current price when membership prices increased.

5. The money that you make from profit can be put back into the operational components of the school. This means website and marketing operations can function more effectively. This also reduces marketing and promotion costs.
When I ran the finances for my last school. Marketing and video promotion were almost zero cost. Thanks to youtube and the website. People were able to contact the school, find information about the school, and manage their membership through the website. In addition to that, we were able to house student only videos. These were videos that were only available through the website membership area.

6. If necessary. Maximizing profits means that it will be possible for the teacher if he or she wishes to pay for additional services for the benefit of the school. Some teachers just aren't good with the meet and greet part of running a school. Some may be good at it but can't do meet and greet when they are also teaching a class. This is important for dealing with Walk-ins or Walk ups. (if in a park). You may want to pay a service fee for having someone available to take care of that on certain days. Or you may need to use profit to pay for some of the daily operational costs.
At my last school, we always had 2 instructors which made it possible for one person to step out of the class to take care of Walk-ins.

7. Profits can be used to pay for CPR and first aid training.

8. Profits can be used to pay for school social events. Picnics and outings (movie nights)

Was maximizing the school profit a major focus for me. Definitely. There's a business side and a teacher side and I kept both of them separately. I didn't let kung fu teaching get in the way of business and I didn't let business get in the way of teaching kung fu.

The real problem isn't Maximizing the Profit. The real problem is who is managing the profits. Some people get greedy and forget that supporting the school is priority#1.

I think of it like a fruit tree. If a person depends on the fruit tree for food, then Picking all of the fruit and never giving back to the tree is a good way to starve.

But the person who makes the health of the tree and the survival of the tree priority will always have fruit to eat.

 

[JowGaWolf]

If seeking maximum profit is driving your desire to teach the martial arts then I would definitely advise potential students to search elsewhere for lessons.

When looking at the profits of a school. Don't worry about how much they are making in profits. Focus more on if they are using those profits to give back to the school. It's no different than a gym membership. If I'm paying for my membership then I expect the equipment to work, I expect to see new equipment as needed. and if they are maximizing profits then I expect to see new offerings for member and or discounts available.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Comparing plumbing with martial arts is not a good one. Martial arts training is not an essential in life. When you seek out a plumber you have a real problem which requires an immediate solution. Martial arts training is not even in the same league. If you are serious about making money from your skills then comparative pricing is not the way to go, you really need to understand your value and be able to demonstrate how your teachings are the solution to another's problems.

MA teacher still has mouths to feed, mortgage to pay, ...

 

[Taiji Rebel]

MA teacher still has mouths to feed, mortgage to pay, ...

You have misunderstood the point I was making

 

[JowGaWolf]

Comparing plumbing with martial arts is not a good one. Martial arts training is not an essential in life. When you seek out a plumber you have a real problem which requires an immediate solution. Martial arts training is not even in the same league. If you are serious about making money from your skills then comparative pricing is not the way to go, you really need to understand your value and be able to demonstrate how your teachings are the solution to another's problems.

This often happens where Martial Art teachers over price themselves. TKD here can easily be a $300 a month possibility. The same can't be said of Jow Ga Kung Fu. A Jow Ga Kung Fu school in the north will cost much more than in the south where the system doesn't have any popularity. Sometimes Kung Fu teachers think others will have the same value that they see for Martial Arts.

Past instructors that I worked with thought of Jow Ga Kung Fu like that and as a result gave them an arrogant perspective. One person would never answer emails from people who were interested in Kung Fu. His reasoning was "If they were really interested then they would come to the school and ask in person." My "jaw dropped" when I heard that person say that. In his mind Jow GA was this thing that people should be honored to know they at they should be honored that someone taught them. My perspective was a little different. People don't like kissing butts, and they don't want to pay a monthly fee to kiss my butt.

If I want people to join the school, then it's my Job to show them how the school can be valuable to them. Before I left the school, I was creating plans to have the school and the students do a lot of community volunteer work. The idea was simple. Be of value to the community and the community will make sure you will always have a school. I think things like this are good ways to increase the value of a school.

 

[Oily Dragon]

Comparing plumbing with martial arts is not a good one. Martial arts training is not an essential in life. When you seek out a plumber you have a real problem which requires an immediate solution. Martial arts training is not even in the same league. If you are serious about making money from your skills then comparative pricing is not the way to go, you really need to understand your value and be able to demonstrate how your teachings are the solution to another's problems.

Martial arts can never really have the same sort of regulated trade as plumbing. Nobody sits down at the end of the day and says to themselves "I need to hire a martial artist" unless they have kids, or are terribly out of shape.

The old movie trope was fine. "Help, my family's been murdered now I need to learn martial arts for vengeance". That training was usual free, and came from an old uncle, or one of your dad's war buddies.

In 2023, it's more like "I ate way too much cheese this summer, time to hire a sifu".

 

[Balrog]

Hi everyone.
...snip...

So, I am interested I hearing the full range of what people charge or have seen charged, where people have actually happily paid the fee. Please give me the low-down. Thanks!

I charge $35 for a half hour, or $60 for a full hour.

 

[Yamabushii]

Your statement is why I always say Martial Arts teachers should not run the business of their school. Maximizing Profits is where supply = demand. Depending on the demand for a martial arts system your profits may be maximized at $300 a month or at $20. Profit is not bad. People assume that just because someone is Maximizing Profits that, they offer low-quality teaching or bad people. Maximum Profit supported my desire to keep the school open and to ensure that my Sifu back then would always have a school that he could claim even if he were only able to be at the school once or twice a year.

Here's what's possible when you maximize profit as a Martial Arts Teacher:
1. It will be possible to either spend less or no "out of pocket" money in order to run the school.
When I ran the finances for my last school. The school was able to pay rent for space thanks to making a profit.

2. It will be possible to move from backyard and park training to affording a building or training space that will allow training to continue during any type of weather and time of day. Having the indoor training space makes it possible to add training equipment to help make training more efficient and effective

3. The money that you make from profit can then be used to provide additional services to students free of charge for them.
When I ran the finances for my last school. 100% of the profit went back into the school and was used to purchase training gear that all students could use or it can be used to replace damaged gear.

4. The money that you make from profit makes it easier to provide free or reduced cost classes without that student being a burden to the survival having enough money to pay rent.
When I ran the finances for my last school, The school made enough money to grandfather in current students at their current price when membership prices increased.

5. The money that you make from profit can be put back into the operational components of the school. This means website and marketing operations can function more effectively. This also reduces marketing and promotion costs.
When I ran the finances for my last school. Marketing and video promotion were almost zero cost. Thanks to youtube and the website. People were able to contact the school, find information about the school, and manage their membership through the website. In addition to that, we were able to house student only videos. These were videos that were only available through the website membership area.

6. If necessary. Maximizing profits means that it will be possible for the teacher if he or she wishes to pay for additional services for the benefit of the school. Some teachers just aren't good with the meet and greet part of running a school. Some may be good at it but can't do meet and greet when they are also teaching a class. This is important for dealing with Walk-ins or Walk ups. (if in a park). You may want to pay a service fee for having someone available to take care of that on certain days. Or you may need to use profit to pay for some of the daily operational costs.
At my last school, we always had 2 instructors which made it possible for one person to step out of the class to take care of Walk-ins.

7. Profits can be used to pay for CPR and first aid training.

8. Profits can be used to pay for school social events. Picnics and outings (movie nights)

Was maximizing the school profit a major focus for me. Definitely. There's a business side and a teacher side and I kept both of them separately. I didn't let kung fu teaching get in the way of business and I didn't let business get in the way of teaching kung fu.

The real problem isn't Maximizing the Profit. The real problem is who is managing the profits. Some people get greedy and forget that supporting the school is priority#1.

I think of it like a fruit tree. If a person depends on the fruit tree for food, then Picking all of the fruit and never giving back to the tree is a good way to starve.

But the person who makes the health of the tree and the survival of the tree priority will always have fruit to eat.

This is a great response. I agree with you 100%. Personally, I keep a fairly small-sized school with generally around 10 students at any given time, give or take a few. While I have no problem with the school getting bigger, I do feel content as this allows me to keep my classes and instruction more intimate. I don't make much of a profit from my school as my day job is what supports my family and I, and as long as my school can cover its own overhead costs then I'm happy.

On the other hand, one of my best friends that runs a school an hour and a half away from me has well over 200 students and makes over half a mil annually just from the school itself. He went from a small school where he taught out of a shared dirty, old boxing gym as the only instructor 5 years ago to having an entire team of instructors, several different programs, constant member and family events/workshops/seminars, a beautiful and traditional looking Japanese dojo, their own custom equipment and apparel, their own store inside the school, and he even pays for his instructors to travel around the country for instructor trainings. He is always putting money back into his own instructors and students from his pocket. He has bought custom made katana for his shodan black belts as gifts. He also has the most amazing children's program I've seen. I've seen several of his children over the span of a few years completely transformed.

I think a lot of martial artists in the U.S. really have to get over this cultural stigma on making money from martial arts.

 

[JowGaWolf]

This is a great response. I agree with you 100%. Personally, I keep a fairly small-sized school with generally around 10 students at any given time, give or take a few. While I have no problem with the school getting bigger, I do feel content as this allows me to keep my classes and instruction more intimate. I don't make much of a profit from my school as my day job is what supports my family and I, and as long as my school can cover its own overhead costs then I'm happy.

On the other hand, one of my best friends that runs a school an hour and a half away from me has well over 200 students and makes over half a mil annually just from the school itself. He went from a small school where he taught out of a shared dirty, old boxing gym as the only instructor 5 years ago to having an entire team of instructors, several different programs, constant member and family events/workshops/seminars, a beautiful and traditional looking Japanese dojo, their own custom equipment and apparel, their own store inside the school, and he even pays for his instructors to travel around the country for instructor trainings. He is always putting money back into his own instructors and students from his pocket. He has bought custom made katana for his shodan black belts as gifts. He also has the most amazing children's program I've seen. I've seen several of his children over the span of a few years completely transformed.

I think a lot of martial artists in the U.S. really have to get over this cultural stigma on making money from martial arts.

I like hearing about schools like that. I bet it's a great experience. I for one would like to give students a better experience than a classroom where kung fu training is held. That's not quite the visual I want them to remember lol.

 

[Steve]

There are more than a few schools where making money from the art is their main purpose

In years past I have seen plenty of schools capitalizing on every opportunity to make money whilst producing low-calibre martial artists in the process. Surely, we have our own experiences and examples of martial arts schools and instructors who are far from genuine about promoting the art, being far more interested in making money by exploiting the naivety of the general public.

A couple of months ago my friend of mine came across a local tai chi class with an instructor who claimed to have been taught the style by a Shaolin monk. When we enquired for further details on the lineage and style they told us the Shaolin master shunned publicity and preferred to keep her credentials secret as this was the Shaolin way

It will not surprise you to learn the membership costs, and monthly fees were extremely high - I advised my friend to look elsewhere

I think there's a middle ground that you are overlooking in this post.

 

[Taiji Rebel]

I think there's a middle ground that you are overlooking in this post.

Indeed there is. Life is a full spectrum of color, sound and experience. Sitting in the middle of the road can get you run over, but getting into the groove can also help you to play a real good song. The Buddha learnt by reaching extremes and returning to the center. Every dog has its day, and with the pendulum we can swing from side-to-side until our eyes begin to feel very sleepy.

 

[Steve]

Yes. It's just a matter of how much it's worth delaying that, when presumably school is being done to advance in your career. There are two very different endpoints if you start your intended career in your early 20s vs. 40s.

My assumption was that that got caught in inflation. I'm going to see what info I can find and do the math on that later though, to see how salary changes compare to that change in tuition price. But that's going to take some research and thought on the best way to determine that before I look at any numbers (to avoid them being swayed by bias), so I'll do that after work.

I agree with all of that. That's not the purpose of the student loans. I don't know that people did that. I actually saved the money for mine to the side and stayed at home for the most part/budgeted it in, and finally finished paying mine off this week.

There's just a lot that goes into this. In Seattle, the cost of living is so dang high, that being able to live close enough to walk anywhere would cost so much it would more than offset any possible savings in gas. $15 or more minimum wage dollars helps.. having parents who are savvy enough to assist with the FAFSA helps... good grades helps with getting grants vs loans... all of that helps. But out of control rent prices and costs of living, significant rises in tuition (outpacing wages and inflation), gas prices, and stuff like that, as well as the predatory nature of banks, makes it difficult for kids to navigate. I mean, not everyone has parents who are as financially literate as DD and others. And I don't fault a kid for not knowing something his parents may never have been taught themselves.

 

[Steve]

Indeed there is. Life is a full spectrum of color, sound and experience. Sitting in the middle of the road can get you run over, but getting into the groove can also help you to play a real good song. The Buddha learnt by reaching extremes and returning to the center. Every dog has its day, and with the pendulum we can swing from side-to-side until our eyes begin to feel very sleepy.

Is this you or ChatGTP?

 

[kfman]

I charge $35 for a half hour, or $60 for a full hour.

I teach privately and have only charged $25 for an hour at a local park. One student pays me $60 because he likes how I teach. After seeing what others are charging, I feel I should raise my rate. I want to fair to people who couldn't afford more.