The Premise: God is evil

[tellner]

We certainly can have a polite discussion about religion. Take a look at the one on the New Atheists. The term in question is inaccurate and dishonest. I'm not saying that you are dishonest, just that the term's roots and original intent are in the same way as terms like "Papist", "Mohammedan", "Heathen" and "Fire Worshiper". Its origins are an explicit attempt by certain Christians to co-opt Judaism as an appendage to or one end of Christianity. It is false in fact and ignores the dramatic ways in which the two religious currents have diverged.

 

[Empty Hands]

Kacey - thanks for the clarifications.

 

[MartialArtHeart]

We certainly can have a polite discussion about religion. Take a look at the one on the New Atheists. The term in question is inaccurate and dishonest. I'm not saying that you are dishonest, just that the term's roots and original intent are in the same way as terms like "Papist", "Mohammedan", "Heathen" and "Fire Worshiper". Its origins are an explicit attempt by certain Christians to co-opt Judaism as an appendage to or one end of Christianity. It is false in fact and ignores the dramatic ways in which the two religious currents have diverged.

And if I had said the Christian God, I would have had people on my tail for not adding the term Judeo-.
The fact is that it is the same God in essence. The Jewish culture denies that he has already sent his son, but the fact is that the two religions believe in the same God. The God of the Old Testament is true to both. Hence the term Judeo-Christian God. Jesus was a Jew, and if you wish to debate this, please start another thread. I am not here to debate terms.:rules:

 

[Ninjamom]

.....I did not mean suffering that builds us up, or teaches us. I mean the pointless suffering that does no one any good......

I suppose I would contend that no suffering on this earth is pointless or accomplishes absolutely no good. If I really believe that God is sovereign (which I do), then no action on earth is without meaning and purpose. Because I believe that God is good, I can have faith in the middle of the darkest circumstances that His purpose is also good. To whatever extent He has allowed the circumstances in my life that result in suffering (whether through my own choice or the choices of others, or from seemingly random acts), I can have confidence that there is a reason for it (even when I haven't a clue what that reason or purpose could possibly be). If there is reason and purpose for it, then there can be beauty and meaning in the middle of it. This gives me hope - whatever the 'reason' the suffering is there, it will work towards good, ultimately. In short, it matters.

I mentioned redemption before, and the Christian/Judeo-Christian concept of God carrying His people. When I consider the suffering that Jesus Christ willingly took (even embraced), it gives me great comfort. God isn't just 'out there somewhere telling me about suffering', but is right here with me in the middle of my suffering, and has already experienced so much of it.

I ask in this forum because it is dedicated to spirituality. And I ask all of you because I find myself more interested in the opinions of fellow martial artists than hardcore bible-beaters, etc.
And I did NOT mean to make it a loaded question. I was simply providing context so people knew the direction in which I wished the thread to go.

Fair enough, my friend. I re-read my initial response, and it did come across harshly. I apologize for that. From my personal experience, though, I have been literally banged over the head with this exact question, worded almost identically, as a club by dozens of different individuals who clearly had less pure motives. As Tellner pointed out, this is not in any sense a 'new' question. Personally, I think it is one of the most profound anyone could ever ask, and no answer that could fit in an Internet forum would be likely to satisfy you completely.

Given that, please consider re-reading my first post with the understanding that I am trying to be honest about my opinions, while ducking and blocking with one arm, expecting to get hit with a 2 x 4 at any moment. Out of all the questions you asked, I tended to focus almost entirely on, "Can God be all good and all powerful at the same time, if suffering exists in this world?", and "If He can be and is (all powerful and all good), then why does He allow suffering to continue in this world?" That second question is one I've struggled with a lot (hence why I had more to say, and probably another reason why it came across 'hotter' than intended).

If you are interested in some of the most profound thinking/writing about Christianity and suffering, may I please suggest some things from John Piper? It isn't light reading by any means, but this is not a shallow, surface question that you are asking, either. Mr. Piper wrote a book called 'Desiring God' several years ago, and I found the entire book online. Chapter 10 (available here) deals exclusively with suffering.

As far as other writings, the entire book of Job in the Bible deals with the struggle to understand the 'why?' of suffering while walking in the middle of it. Interestingly, it almost makes a point of not answering that specific question. I suppose understanding 'why' isn't one of the promises we've been given. Knowing there is a why, and that a good and sovereign God holds it, is all we have. Thankfully, that is enough.

 

[MartialArtHeart]

I admire your faith, Ninjamom, and perhaps one day I will posess the same. It is as I have told one of my friends who is also struggling with this question: Perhaps one day, when we are older and wiser, we will understand. For now, we are naive enough to live, or hot enough to withstand hell. (yes, I know, you won't agree... but it was also to make her laugh )
And honestly, I have no wish to call into question anyone's faith. I understand that you may have been confused on this part... I have had my views called into question enough times to know how it feels. Especially seeing as I am a big fan of Devil's Advocate, no matter what I may believe.

 

[OnlyAnEgg]

This sounds a lot like "If God can do anything, can He make a boulder so big He can't lift it?".

Personally, I feel suffering is a by-product of living corporeally. The further we move into a spiritual realm, the less suffering we will endure. God, be He Judeo-Christian or not, is the connect needed for the minimization of suffering. Whoever He/She/It is, fonding Him within ourselves will lead to a more wonderful existance.

 

[MartialArtHeart]

That's the kind of reply I was looking for! Thanks! The question was basically a guideline.

 

[CoryKS]

It's all God's stuff. He made it. I don't ask the Tinkertoys what I should build with them, and I don't ask them if they like the result.

 

[MartialArtHeart]

But tinkertoys can't feel pain... at least, not as far as I can tell.
The thing is, yes, he can do it, but doesn't that make him evil? If he creates us and just lets us suffer? You'll say he's under no obligation... but he DID create us, no? It's like we're his children... and yet even though he could have made us stronger, he didn't. You'll say it's to let us learn, but the Bible itself says that God made us for his pleasure. His pleasure. He gets pleasure from the good things, I'm sure... but when he could stop bad things from happening that do no one good and he doesn't... it makes me think he might enjoy those too.

 

[CoryKS]

But tinkertoys can't feel pain... at least, not as far as I can tell.
The thing is, yes, he can do it, but doesn't that make him evil? If he creates us and just lets us suffer? You'll say he's under no obligation... but he DID create us, no? It's like we're his children... and yet even though he could have made us stronger, he didn't. You'll say it's to let us learn, but the Bible itself says that God made us for his pleasure. His pleasure. He gets pleasure from the good things, I'm sure... but when he could stop bad things from happening that do no one good and he doesn't... it makes me think he might enjoy those too.

Or perhaps our pain does not register on a scale to make it noteworthy in the eyes of god. Maybe the mind of God is alien to such a degree that a) he doesn't understand our pain; or b) we don't understand our pain in the context he intended it.

 

[MartialArtHeart]

I suppose that is a possibility. But then, if a, he would either be a different god than the one from.... ahem... Christianity, or he would be a liar. I think that b is true, actually, for most cases. But what about the pointless suffering? The suffering that no one benifits from? Apparently animals cannot be morally improved, and yet they suffer constantly beyond our eyes(I must respectfully disagree with kaizasosei; I've seen too many animals with fear in their eyes be brutally killed); the same goes for children, especially when they die and therefore cannot bring experience into a perspective of adulthood.

 

[Empty Hands]

As far as other writings, the entire book of Job in the Bible deals with the struggle to understand the 'why?' of suffering while walking in the middle of it. Interestingly, it almost makes a point of not answering that specific question.

Oh no, the book of Job explains why clearly enough:

From Job 1:8 "Then the LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil." 9 "Does Job fear God for nothing?" Satan replied. 10 "Have you not put a hedge around him and his household and everything he has? You have blessed the work of his hands, so that his flocks and herds are spread throughout the land. 11 But stretch out your hand and strike everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your face."12 The LORD said to Satan, "Very well, then, everything he has is in your hands, but on the man himself do not lay a finger." Then Satan went out from the presence of the LORD."

Job was made to suffer so that God could prove to his interlocutor that Job indeed "fears God." I would fear God too, given this story. It doesn't seem very just to cause suffering to prove someone's obedience. In fact, the Old Testament is where a lot of us have gotten all these ideas that Jehovah may not be such a nice guy.

 

[Empty Hands]

It's all God's stuff. He made it. I don't ask the Tinkertoys what I should build with them, and I don't ask them if they like the result.

We make our children too. Can we abuse them freely and still be "good"?

 

[Freestyler777]

I'm so glad someone started this thread, and that I get a chance to voice my opinion.

I'm something of a secular jew, but I consider myself spiritual, so I will give you the jewish perspective on this.

There is suffering inherent in human life. Not everything is perfect, in fact only god is perfect. Man has volition, or free will, and can do whatever he pleases in this life. You can be an obedient son or a contrary son. But there is a reckoning, if you sow in discord and malice, you reap an unwholesome harvest of bad results. if you sow in tears, meaning good work, you reap a harvest of good results and happiness.

The Jewish faith is a religion of action, not belief. If you do good to others, willingly, or begrudingly, you will have a positive outcome for yourself and others. And with enough time and experience, you become good yourself, as you grow closer to god.

The traditional jewish belief is that there is no heaven and hell, but rather, just Sheol, or the underworld. There is no mention of an afterlife in the torah. Just a mention of Sheol, the dark gloomy underworld. No hellfire, no torment, no goat-legged demons stabbing you with pitchforks. Just a dark, gloomy underworld where the spirits of the deceased dwell.

And in addition, jews believe that everyone goes to the same place after death, but instead of saying "The heck with it, every man for himself!" one should value life even more, since you only get one and once you're dead, you're gone (from this world).

Does that mean that rich, healthy people are better than poor sick people? Or that suffering people deserve it? NO!!!

I'll have to borrow a chinese proverb when i say, 'birth and death are decreed, wealth and honor rest with god'. You should take responsibility for yourself, appreciate what you have (it could always be worse), and just live a good life. The reward for life is life. And, to borrow another idiom, the wages of sin is death.

A long, fruitful life and a peaceful death is all one should ask for.

 

[MartialArtHeart]

I like your perspective, Freestyler. Thanks for voicing. But even if we always chose good, there would still be consequences for those who have no choice(animals and children), just from nature. Why do you think this is?

 

[kaizasosei]

hello

martialartheart, im sorry if expressed myself inadaquately. I by all means agree with you on the point of needless or wrong suffering...
jesus said: if you sin against God you can be forgiven, if you sin against Man you can be forgiven, but if you sin against the holy spirit, you cannot be forgiven.

i do believe that the spirit is in all things to some degree.

on the subject of animal suffering, it is horrible. all the dogs that are crammed into a box like 20 dogs in one small box-not even space to move.
then they get skinned alive. there are countless cases of such horrid cruelty...where the people are not even smart enough to end the suffering and perpetuate these energies of hatred and evil. even a slightly frightened creature can curse you, depending on the individual.

all the test animals that are not acknowledged at all. not only animals also many people have been treated in like manner.
even poor pets and animals in a petshop that are helplessly caged and their needs comletely ignored...yes they have suffering and hatred in their eyes...damn right!! completely unnatural stuff that makes me so angry and i'm not even in the position...
against that the snake is practically worshiping the chick...he's not standing by watching it suffer for practically no reason if any.
we on the other hand will not be forgiven for those actions and will be condemned for more suffering. too bad-
so who's fault is it that we are cursed?

j

 

[kaizasosei]

in china they say that if you curse your enemy, you garantee him a long and prosperous life.
so maybe we just don't know how to curse properly or effectively.
perhaps some animals are more talented than we are.
i deal lots with animals and often i consider mankind lower than the animals considering how much they have been given. then if i'm so weak i might attack mankind or parts thereof by called them animals-but actually, the ugly blobs hardly deserve that title.
for myself there is not better time to use the analogy of the servant that invests his money wiser than the others and is rewarded for that.
usually i never really like that story because it seemed to focus on personal gain too much.
but in this case, i think it fits personally. and rather than the reward, i would focus on the servants that lose favor of their master.



j

 

[tellner]

My favorite is still the old Sufi curse: "May Allah reward you exactly as you deserve."

Of course, nobody can curse like us Chosen People. A couple examples...

• "May your daughters marry men of substance. Gypsies with two bears."[Gypsies were just about the only people lower in status than Jews]
• "May the raucous sound of children's laughter never shatter the peace of your home, G-d forbid."
• "May you make a million rubles and spend it all on doctors."
• "May all your children not catch cold from the holy water, G-d forbid."[i.e. they should all convert to Christianity]
• "May the Angel of Death pass over your house and send Satan instead."
• "Your son, such a smart child. I just know he'll memorize the whole Kaddish before he even learns his Bar Mitzvah speech."[The Kaddish is the prayer you say for a dead relative, especially a parent. The Bar Mitzvah is a ceremony which happens at age 13][I was about to say that to my youngest sister one day. Thank G-d Tiel hit me really really hard before I could open my mouth.]
• "May your blood turn to vodka and all the bedbugs get drunk on it and dance the mazurka in your belly button."

You know, I really do fear for my immortal soul just repeating some of those :uhoh:

 

[kaizasosei]

no worries i should also hope. interesting. thanks for sharing..

here, just the other day i found some stuff though i think it is mostly superstition and is not exact or perfect. however just to share maybe you find it interesting. btw, i do not endorse or practice such superficial and gross actions. some ideas may however be true in some way be it good or evil.? sounds somewhat evil to me-?


In China, eighteenth century and earlier:
Possibly because of feng shuei, carpenters and masons were associated with sorcerers. Proper ritual construction of homes was essential. It was believed that bridge-builders could steal a man's soul by clipping off his queue, or take a woman's soul by clipping a piece of her collar; the stolen soul was placed on a piling of a bridge under construction and hammered into the river-bed, killing the victim but ensuring a sturdy bridge. Soulstealers were believed to operate in gangs, paying petty thieves to collect pigtails, with evil sorcerers lurking somewhere to use the stolen souls.
The Lu-pan-ching was a popular carpentry manual in Ch'ing times; it contained rules for proper ritual construction, but also baleful charms for builders to hide atop rafters or under floors; and also charms to be used against such evil builders. This manual was thought so powerful that when a copy was sold, the bookseller always faced away from the book; anyone who opened the pages had to inflict magical harm on someone, or else himself suffer. From this book:
1. "A drawing of a broken tile inscribed with "Ice melts" <half of an expression 'Ice melts, tiles scatter' eg collapse, dissolution?>. Appended is a charm: 'A piece of broken tile, a jagged edge, hidden in joint of roof-beam, husband die and wife remarry, sons move away, servants flee, none will care for the estate.'" (To be hidden in a joint of the main roof-beam.)
2. "A drawing of an ox-bone. The charm: 'In center of room hide ox-bone, life-long toil, life's end death but no coffin, sons and grandsons will shoulder heavy burdens.'" (Bury under center of room.)
3. "A drawing of a knife among coils of hair. The charm: 'A sword worn in the hair. Sons and grandsons will leave and become monks. Having sons who found no families, perpetual misery. Widow and widower, orphaned and childless, do not forgive each other.'" (Bury under threshold.)
4. "When building a house, various kinds of carpenters, masons, and plasterers will plot to poison, curse, and harm the owner. On the day when the roof-beam is raised, offer a sacrifice of the three types of animal, laid out on a horizontal trestle, to all the gods. Then recite the following secret charm of Master Lu Pan <patron saint of carpenters>: 'Evil artisans, do you not know that poisons and curses will rebound upon yourselves, and bring no harm to the owner?' Then recite seven times: 'Let the artisan meet misfortune.' <Then say> 'I have received the proclamation of the Supreme Ruler ordering that I shall suffer no harm from others, and that all will redound to my good fortune: an urgent decree.' Burn copy of charm in private place, especially where no pregnant woman can see you. Mix ashes with blood of black and yellow dog, then dissolve in wine. On day main roof-beam is raised, serve to builders <three cups to boss>. He who is plotting sorcery will himself receive the harm. <Copy in vermilion ink and paste atop roofbeam>."

 

[Freestyler777]

I know this may sound harsh, but bear with me:

The first commandment in the torah is "Be fruitful and multiply, and subdue the earth, and replenish it..."

What does that mean? First of all, it is good to have sex and produce children, or, to be fruitful. It is best to do that in the context of a marriage, but I am no saint and should not admonish anyone. Secondly, every plant and animal on earth is for man's use. That means eating meat is good, riding horses is good, growing crops for us to eat is good, etc...

That does not mean cruelty to animals is in any way good. The orthodox jews have numerous laws that were extrapolated from the Torah (the five books of Moses) on how to slaughter animals humanely so they don't feel pain when they die.

As for other cruelties towards animals...They are unnecessary. If man was a faithful steward of the land, the way the native americans were, we wouldn't have so many animals suffering needlessly.

Children are innnately helpless and innocent. Someone who hurts a child should be punished. But then again, a child should be protected by his/her parents.

To answer you, martialartheart, i believe suffering is inherent in life, and as Morehei Ueshiba said, "Do not see the world with fear and loathing- bravely face whatever the gods offer!" Meaning, love the world the way it is, accept the world, and you'll be one less person doing harm and one more person doing good. The light of wisdom shines through every man who realizes that he can't change the world, only himself. Don't be naive and try to change the world. It's impossible.

There is a quote in the Tao Te ching "Love the world as yourself, thus you can care for all things."