Did Man make God?

[Steve]

I didn't hijack anything. It has everything to do with the existence of God. Your position was we made him up in out minds and he's not real. Mine is not

But it's possible. Right? You have faith. But it's possible that it's a biological imperative to believe in a higher power.

 

[ballen0351]

But it's possible. Right? You have faith. But it's possible that it's a biological imperative to believe in a higher power.

Not really in my opinion if it where biological more people would do it. Religious belief seems to have taken a quick and sudden decline in the last 50 to 75 years. According to older people I've talked to. If it were biological I don't think it would have dropped that fast. Also if it were biological why would people change their beliefs? For example I was not a believer my whole life until about 5 years ago or so. I also know a former pastor that gave up his beliefs. So i wouldn't think biological needs would change so rapidly and back and forth. Is it possible I suppose so but I feel it's very unlikely

 

[oftheherd1]

If we created gods and there are other better awnsers to existence, wouldn`t you agree?

I think there are groups who have indeed created gods. But I don't believe anyone created the God I believe in. Rather, I believe he created the universe. That is a matter of faith for me. So I would agree there are better answers to existence, that being the God I believe in.

You may not believe as I do. That is your business. No one should try and compel you to believe what you don't want to believe. Nor should anyone put you down for you beliefs. They are yours to deal with as you wish. I think you are wrong in your belief, and don't mind discussing that with you, and hearing what you do believe. But I will always try to present my belief and my God in a loving and caring way. I will not try to insult or belittle you.

I would appreciate the the same from you.

All that said, I am curious, what do you think are better answers to existence?

 

[oftheherd1]

That suprises me. If man created gods, and we accept the gods as truth, are we not merely accepting words of our fellow fallible man as perfect truth?

The problem as I see it is that you are accepting as fact, the premiss that man created gods. In fact that may be. But those of us who are Christian, accept only one God. We believe we are accepting His word and that His word is perfect truth. Apparently you do not believe that. So be it, but how is our belief less valid than yours?

 

[Steve]

Not really in my opinion if it where biological more people would do it. Religious belief seems to have taken a quick and sudden decline in the last 50 to 75 years. According to older people I've talked to. If it were biological I don't think it would have dropped that fast. Also if it were biological why would people change their beliefs? For example I was not a believer my whole life until about 5 years ago or so. I also know a former pastor that gave up his beliefs. So i wouldn't think biological needs would change so rapidly and back and forth. Is it possible I suppose so but I feel it's very unlikely

Most people are good. Regardless of faith, most people are good people. If I have faith in anything, it is that. Even heathens

 

[oftheherd1]

I got into this thread after it had many responses. I started off answering each post, but thought maybe it would be better to comment on all I want in one post. It's going to be daunting, for readers as well as me. But here goes.

If such a being exist maybe, there seem to be a lot of the one true god or one true group of gods running around.However there is no evidence for the existence of gods, nor does our understanding of the universe need or require one. Also there is a lot of historical evidence showing how religion evolves and certain gods are made up from aspects of earlier beliefs. For instance Thor and Zeus are related. Isis and Mother Mary too. It is truly facinating if you spend some time studying it.

No evidence for the existence of gods? My believe in God is based on faith, and that is my proof. I do have the Bible for proof as well. If those things don't work for you I find that sad. Apparently you don't.

Is a Christian god the only possible source of morality?Moral social behavior is a practical consideration. We are, at our core, herd animals. Aberrant social behavior is bad for the herd. So we have laws and we have religions.

I guess it requires a definition of morality. If it is an following the precepts of a religion, then I would say my God is the source of morality. If you want to define it as anything else, then other possibilities are open.

I like what the Kurds did. They decided that Satan was their Guardian Angel, and worship him instead .LOL It isn't working to well for them at the present time. Nobody but nobody is helping them create a Kurdistsan. Sean

First I had heard of that. A quick perusal of the inet makes it appear it is a small group of people who believe that way. But thanks for the education.

I think that the disdain and condescension is going freely both ways. Christians aren't being victimized here. The sanctimony of a select few Christians here is almost unbearable.Christians don't hold any kind of moral monopoly, and the Christian god is not the only possible explanation for anything, whether it's the creation of the universe or anything else. By all means, believe what you want, but questions like, "if not god, then what? " are loaded with patronizing smugness ignoring literally every other religion or non-religion. It sets an immediate negative tone. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

By definition, the Christian God, in whom I believe, is the only possible explanation for everything. It says so in the Bible. But I know that not all people believe in the God I believe in.

Its not ment to be negative. Its a question. If you dont believe in something bigger then us and we are nothing more then cells that work together, we have no spirit and no judgement day then what is the motivation to live a good life if it means nothing? Obviously society itself isnt enough of a motivation or Id be out of a job. If there is no God, is there good and evil? These are valid question for the discussion. Nowhere in this thread have I seen a christian call a non believer lazy, ignorant, intellectual lazyness, delusional, irrational. Cant say the same for the non-believers.

Interestingly, I would say that we who are saved should be more concerned about being what God wants us to be, than worrying about judgement. Prior to being saved and becoming a Christian, judgement won't seem so important. But I take your point that fear of judgement and an eternal existence in hell, once believed in, should be a great incentive to want to be saved and serve God.

Yeah, we do have to teach kids to share. And we also have to teach them to respect boundaries. But does that mean they have to be taught to be good? I think there's an instinct to be a part of the pack. And all kids have empathy and compassion. Although some less than others. All kids crave structure and thrive when they understand their boundaries. And of course, we are all individuals, born with a particular blueprint influenced by our accumulated experiences, including how we were raised and by whom. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

Christians believe we have inherited Adam's sin nature.

Yes. We do. And are biologically predisposed to want to learn how. Don't you agree?Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

See the above comment of Adam's sin nature. Christian belief is that sin entered through Adam's giving in to the temptation of Satan.

If that's what you believe, more power to you. Can we agree that there are other possible explanations? Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

Since Christians believe in God who commands us not to follow false gods, we cannot agree to any other possible explanations.That doesn't mean we don't know other people hold different beliefs. We just don't accept them having any validity contrary to our beliefs.

The concept of "good" and "evil" is totally subjective. Muslims believe in the same God as Christians. There are many practices in the Muslim religeon such as stoning and beheadings that I would classify as evil. The worship of images is considered evil by Islam. I think think that good and evil, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder.:asian:

That is an interesting assertion, that Christians and Muslims believe in the same God. We have the same lineage from God, true. But we believe that Muslims have erred in their belief, especially since they deny the deity and Son of God status of Jesus. Our belief in Jesus being the messiah, and God, is why we are called Christian. Since the Muslim belief denies Jesus as the Son of God, one could make an argument that we don't believe in the same God. Even if one simply thinks they are in error, it would be a significant one.I understand they will think the same of a Christian, or any other belief.

Do you agree that a Christian god is not the only reasonable explanation for morality, creation or good/evil? You gave a kind of non answer.

No, a Christian cannot.

Cool! So now we can get rid of all the trimmings because all the texts and religious books are man made. That brings us back to God herself. Now I'm not sure how her message is going to get through to the billions of people who are not Christian if it's not through religion which we have just demonstrated is not always the true story. :hmm:

Well, Christians believe the Bible is God breathed. That is, God controlled what the different authors wrote, so the writings were what he wanted us to know. So if your saying they are man made implies men wrote the Bible but not under the divine control of God, Christians cannot accept that.As to God being female, why throw that into the face of Christian belief. You surely know how insulting that is to Christians. Do you enjoy being insulting? Or do you really believe God is female? Of course, that would mean you then have to admit to the existence of God. If you are admitting that, then we can discuss whether or not God is male or female.

Sorry but marriage is a legality. Just who is saying that premarital sex is a sin?And we have whose word for that? The people who are within a particular religion? By that definition the Koran would be more likely to be accurate than the Bible because it was written more recently. Scientology even better because even I was around when Mr Hubbard made that one up.

As I am sure you know, Christians believe God says sex outside of marriage is sin, as pointed out in the Bible. What does age of writings have to do with their inerrancy?

But it's possible. Right? You have faith. But it's possible that it's a biological imperative to believe in a higher power.

Apparently not. You and many others on MT don't seem to. But if you do, would you like to be introduced to God? I would be happy to show you what and why I believe.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Something that really bothers me from some of the atheists and agnostics around here is the disdainful attitude they show towards people of faith. If I were to imply that someone was stupid, lazy, uninformed or uneducated because they didn't believe in God, I'd rightly be laughed out of the room. But it seems that it's perfectly OK for someone who doesn't believe to use belittling phrases or outright insults towards those who do believe. There's plenty of room to discuss these issues without being asses about it -- on either side.

You make some valid points however it goes the other way as well, mainly from proponents of YEC. Some people of faith call atheists and agnostics evil and attack their character because they don't believe as they do

 

[jezr74]

Got behind on this one, so making a statement to cover some comments from my point of view.

As an aethiest, I have no need for a god or religion to give my life meaning. I live and strive because my time here is short and do what I can with it within my bounds, and culture and society. My purpose in life changes constantly over time, when I was younger it was about family and having fun, as I got older I added responsibility, commitment and still family. Older still, it was about growing my own family. and so on and so on... it changes, it shrinks and grows, has it's ups and downs. Some people have religion and gods in theirs, just different ideals at different stages.

I have ethics and morals, grown from experience, trials and tribulations through my years, my wife does, my kids do, my family does... with that I know what is and is not acceptable (good and evil, right and wrong). I also pass this on to my kids and influence them, I'm also constantly being influenced by people around me... constantly having these things updated and changed.

Religious, aethiest, agnostic, .. they all learn the same way. And all capable of great and small acts of evil and good.

But sin is a religious creation, so I'm not bound by it or my family. And for me, I don't have an emptiness that people of faith describe, it's just not in my life at the moment.

The reason I see god as man made is because I took the time to look at the science and evidence, and went further to understand it. I also took the time to look at religion and faith to examine it's evidence as well and understand it via their scriptures. This is where it landed me, others have a different story.

 

[K-man]

I didn't hijack anything. It has everything to do with the existence of God. Your position was we made him up in out minds and he's not real. Mine is not

You have not discussed the OP at all. The existence of God or otherwise has nothing to do with this thread. If you want to argue the existence of God start another thread. I have not stated my position in this or any other thread so for you to say my position is that God only exists in the mind is not what I have said at all. You have your beliefs and I have mine. What I believe is nothing to do with this thread. As for your position that God is real ... I don't have a problem with that. So now can we get back to discussing what I posted rather than your faith?
:asian:

 

[Cirdan]

Your country was founded by God fearing people and would not exist if it weren't for them. Your current political climate is anecdotal at best. My Granddad came from Norway. I guess that makes me 3rd generation.

Actually my country was first united in the viking age under king Harald Hårfagre who defeated all the other jarls and small-kings. The reason he did it was to impress Gyda, the woman he wanted, so he could finally have some of her nookie.

In short, Norway was founded by horny vikings and would not exist if it weren`t for them Skål!

 

[Cirdan]

I think there are groups who have indeed created gods. But I don't believe anyone created the God I believe in. Rather, I believe he created the universe. That is a matter of faith for me. So I would agree there are better answers to existence, that being the God I believe in.

(snip)

All that said, I am curious, what do you think are better answers to existence?

The better way of course is to study the world with an open mind, use critical thinking and discard old flawed models when your increasing understanding allows you to improve.
The universe is wonderous, to me putting imaginary gods in charge of this marvel belittles rather than improves.

 

[K-man]

Well, Christians believe the Bible is God breathed. That is, God controlled what the different authors wrote, so the writings were what he wanted us to know. So if your saying they are man made implies men wrote the Bible but not under the divine control of God, Christians cannot accept that.

That's the first time I've heard that position stated so I would suggest that millions of Christians would accept that men wrote the Bible. The fact that it has been translated and retranslated adds to the confusion. Then you have the differences in Bibles between the different denominations.

As to God being female, why throw that into the face of Christian belief. You surely know how insulting that is to Christians. Do you enjoy being insulting? Or do you really believe God is female? Of course, that would mean you then have to admit to the existence of God. If you are admitting that, then we can discuss whether or not God is male or female.

As to the gender of God. That is not an insult at all. Many of my feminist friends always refer to God as female. Have you any evidence to the contrary? My Christian friends are sick of condescending male attitudes within the church regarding the ordination of women. I happen to believe in their cause.

As I am sure you know, Christians believe God says sex outside of marriage is sin, as pointed out in the Bible. What does age of writings have to do with their inerrancy?

I'm not sure you are correct here. The Bible says adultery is a sin but I'm to be convinced that it is categorical when it comes to sex between unmarried persons. The word 'should' is not the same as 'must'.

Like Ballen you have jumped in with both feet without understanding the OP. You have no idea of my background but I will tell you that I grew up in a Christian home, attended a Christian school and spent three years in a Theological college in earlier times. You don't have to explain Christianity to me.

In none of my posts have I suggested there was no God so fine, I'm up for a discussion as to the gender of God, just not in this thread which has nothing to do with the existence of God. What I would like to discuss is the scientific research which, by the way, is not saying there is no God.
:asian:

 

[jezr74]

What I would like to discuss is the scientific research which, by the way, is not saying there is no God.

I'm not sure it can be proven one way or the other as there is no test that could be done to prove or disprove the existence of god(s). If I was to say that there is clear evidence through common ancestry (which there is) of evolution, we get the 'God of the Gaps' happening.

If we actually found empirical evidence, nothing can stop a faith from claiming it was placed there by "God". This happens today, especially with 10,000 year creationists.

 

[K-man]

To get back on track ...

Regardless of whether God — a force superior to man — created him, or man imagined a superior force after he “just happened”, we are still faced with the inescapable presence of God in our lives, if not as a tangible reality, then at least as an idea.


My question is this (and try and think it over with an open mind): Why did man create God? Why did he imagine Him? What was the need for it? Why did he feel compelled to find a meaning in the world around him that there was no physical need for?
https://medium.com/religion-and-god/did-man-create-god-7358459307a2

 

[jezr74]

To get back on track ...

This is where I kinda agree with Ballen on the separation of God and religion. I bring this up so that my response is not confused between them.

I've always seen religion as a control mechanism. Very effective use of fear and sin to control and justify actions of the church that is immoral or evil, also capable of good as well but maybe not so much in the dark ages. This is mad made, and susceptible to the short comings of man as is anyone.

God, I see this the essence of a faith and\or explanation of unknown. Some believers are striving to be in their gods image, weather it's righteous, virtuous, etc.. in the past maybe warped by the institution and has since muddied the waters (ie. greed, power etc)

But I think the essence of a god has not changed. But humans have bent it to their own means. Having said that, a tribe in the middle of a desert will worship the sun as a god as they may know no better and it was part of stories and legend. We have this in what the Aboriginals call the dream time. Fantastic stories of great beings that shaped the world and skies. They created the stories to pass on to generations to come, over time they believe these are gods and are then taught that way when passed on to the next generation. This is how I see gods as man made. Made to tell the story when no other feasible answer is there, as new information and answers come to pass, they embrace and change. That's likely why not all the gods of the past exist today but only in legend.

Some survived the times, or were kept due to people that still used it for earthly reasons..

 

[K-man]

I'm not sure it can be proven one way or the other as there is no test that could be done to prove or disprove the existence of god(s). If I was to say that there is clear evidence through common ancestry (which there is) of evolution, we get the 'God of the Gaps' happening.

If we actually found empirical evidence, nothing can stop a faith from claiming it was placed there by "God". This happens today, especially with 10,000 year creationists.

Mmm! I think you missed the point. This is not about the existence of God or gods. What happened was the scientists have been analysing the brains of people experiencing different religious experiences. Even more controversially, others designed a so called 'God helmet'.

If religion is merely a product of the mind, then perhaps its effects can be simulated artificially – with potentially powerful results. In the Nineties, Canadian cognitive neuro-scientist Michael Persinger invented a “God helmet,” which, he claimed, simulated religious experiences by directing complex magnetic fields to the parts of the brain that include the parietal lobe.


Evangelical Christians demonstrated outside the lab where Persinger tested the helmet, outraged at his suggestion that God could be replicated via a machine. But more than 80 per cent of those who wore the helmet reported sensing a presence in the room that many took to be their deity. They also became deeply emotional and, after the experiment, were filled with a sense of loss.
What god does to your brain: Controversial science of neurotheology aims to find out why people have faith

So, this is not proving or disproving the existence of God. It is just another piece of evidence in the mystery of life. Fundamental Christians accept Creation as described in the Bible. This flies in the face of all scientific evidence. Most Christians are happy to accept that the story in Genesis is just a story and move on in their faith. This scientific research is no different. If Christians feel threatened by this type of research I think they should be asking why they feel threatened. As I have done for many years, I am happy to look at any scientific findings that help us make sense of life and adjust my understanding accordingly. To do otherwise is to live in the distant past with ignorance and superstition. Before this is taken out of context, perhaps I should add that throughout history people have explained the world around them in terms people of the time could understand. Hopefully our understanding of the World has increased greatly since Biblical times.
:asian:

 

[jezr74]

Mmm! I think you missed the point. This is not about the existence of God or gods. What happened was the scientists have been analysing the brains of people experiencing different religious experiences. Even more controversially, others designed a so called 'God helmet'.
:asian:

I'll re-read it. I may have interpreted it differently and took me a different direction.

 

[K-man]

This is where I kinda agree with Ballen on the separation of God and religion. I bring this up so that my response is not confused between them.

I would agree, but it is a little hard to accept that three religions (Jewish, Christian and Muslim) who all claim the same God can have such vastly different positions. Despite protestation in a previous post this is the same God but viewed from three totally separate positions.

I've always seen religion as a control mechanism. Very effective use of fear and sin to control and justify actions of the church that is immoral or evil, also capable of good as well but maybe not so much in the dark ages. This is mad made, and susceptible to the short comings of man as is anyone.

Very True, particularly in England where the church was all powerful centuries ago.

God, I see this the essence of a faith and\or explanation of unknown. Some believers are striving to be in their gods image, weather it's righteous, virtuous, etc.. in the past maybe warped by the institution and has since muddied the waters (ie. greed, power etc)

But how does this relate to the scientific article? Is the feeling produced by the brain a factor in this belief?

But I think the essence of a god has not changed. But humans have bent it to their own means. Having said that, a tribe in the middle of a desert will worship the sun as a god as they may know no better and it was part of stories and legend. We have this in what the Aboriginals call the dream time. Fantastic stories of great beings that shaped the world and skies. They created the stories to pass on to generations to come, over time they believe these are gods and are then taught that way when passed on to the next generation. This is how I see gods as man made. Made to tell the story when no other feasible answer is there, as new information and answers come to pass, they embrace and change. That's likely why not all the gods of the past exist today but only in legend.

Some survived the times, or were kept due to people that still used it for earthly reasons..

I love the dreamtime stories. I've seen the great serpent at Uluru. I have no problem with Aboriginal beliefs in creation. Their links to the landscape go back 40,000 years, way beyond Biblical times.
:asian:

 

[jezr74]

But how does this relate to the scientific article? Is the feeling produced by the brain a factor in this belief?

Guess it depends what parts you think is science.. I have to say that the article seems a bit iffy after reading it again. No indication of where the research was done or how, let alone the numbers change.

When people speak in tongues, they’re gone, they’re in a completely altered state. But most of the time they’re normal people like us

A premise is here that speaking in tongues is done in an altered state? No evidence provided that this is the case.

as many sceptics have long suspected – God didn’t create us, but we created God.

Skeptics? Should be atheists. Skepticism and atheism are two completely different things.

But I have read credible articles on parts of the brain related to differentiating fiction from reality.

 

[Cirdan]

The problem as I see it is that you are accepting as fact, the premiss that man created gods. In fact that may be. But those of us who are Christian, accept only one God. We believe we are accepting His word and that His word is perfect truth. Apparently you do not believe that. So be it, but how is our belief less valid than yours?

I believe water boils at 100°C because it does.

Whith all respect what validates your belief? Why are you ready to accept something as perfect truth? Why is there a need for this?