The Need to Be Recognized as Superior

[dudewingchun]

I do think its a bit odd that some people think that because they are a 'sifu" they are above normal people.

 

[LFJ]

I don't see any reason to treat any instructor as a demigod. Nor do I feel a need to serve him tea when I've been teaching classes for him, helping him paint, clean and move premises, running the occasional errand, doing unpaid IT work, and being supportive in many other ways. Which is not to say I feel exploited, friends do stuff like that for each other.

My first instructor in the 1970's was not into the whole Sifu / disciple thing and was happy for me to call him "Dave" from day 1. He did other weird stuff like going out of his way to try to be friendly to other instructors and have students cross train, helping newly arrived instructors in town get set up, etc.

BJJ is proof that you don't have to take the cultural trappings along with the martial art to keep it real. Though what there is of Brazilian culture in BJJ isn't necessarily better overall than the Japanese culture that preceded it IMO.

I do believe in basic etiquette. I bow when I step onto the training space, I see it as a mental switch to get serious. Either a bow before sparring standup WC, or slap and fist bump in BJJ, set the mood and keep the proceedings respectful. I like the BJJ handshake with everyone at the end of class as well, basically saying "what happened on the mat stays on the mat."

No instructor really wants to be surrounded by a$$-kissers, do they?

I can agree with all of this.

My first kung fu instructor was Korean, so training was much more formal than Chinese. Bowing before entering the training space. Stopping class to bow to the instructors if they entered the room. Bowing before and after sparring each partner. Bowing before and after class, and ending with a formal handshake line before dispersing.

I liked the formal handshake at the end, because everyone had to do it, and it had a way of, as you say, leaving it on the mat. Sparring got rough at times and some of us hated each other like nemeses, during class. Formally shaking hands settled it, because you couldn't just slap hands and look away. We were in line, one by one, shaking with a slight bow all Korean-like, then bang arms inside and out, (which admittedly was our last chance to one-up the other guy by hitting harder, though. )

 

[guy b.]

I don't see any reason to treat any instructor as a demigod. Nor do I feel a need to serve him tea when I've been teaching classes for him, helping him paint, clean and move premises, running the occasional errand, doing unpaid IT work, and being supportive in many other ways. Which is not to say I feel exploited, friends do stuff like that for each other.

My first instructor in the 1970's was not into the whole Sifu / disciple thing and was happy for me to call him "Dave" from day 1. He did other weird stuff like going out of his way to try to be friendly to other instructors and have students cross train, helping newly arrived instructors in town get set up, etc.

BJJ is proof that you don't have to take the cultural trappings along with the martial art to keep it real. Though what there is of Brazilian culture in BJJ isn't necessarily better overall than the Japanese culture that preceded it IMO.

I do believe in basic etiquette. I bow when I step onto the training space, I see it as a mental switch to get serious. Either a bow before sparring standup WC, or slap and fist bump in BJJ, set the mood and keep the proceedings respectful. I like the BJJ handshake with everyone at the end of class as well, basically saying "what happened on the mat stays on the mat."

No instructor really wants to be surrounded by a$$-kissers, do they?

Yes shaking hands after training is a good idea and helps to resolve tension. Actively seeking to defuse tension and grudges is a good idea.

Agree that cultural trappings are unnecessary and have potential to be actively harmful when abused by an insecure person. This can apply just as easily to Brazilian as to Chinese and Japanese culture.

Genuine respect, friendship and so on grows naturally and is much more meaningful.

 

[KPM]

I agree with what has been said about the formalities of "kowtowing", tea ceremonies, walking on eggshells around the instructor, etc. I don't require my students to call me "Sifu" because we are in the US. But I call my teacher "Sifu" because he is Chinese and lives in Hong Kong. However, when training with him he doesn't demand all of the ceremonial kind of stuff either. But I still show him a level of respect because he is my teacher. I am younger and stronger than he is and have pretty extensive training in other martial arts other than his. So it is quite doubtful that he could "knock my teeth out." But I still respect him for his experience and what he can teach me. I defer to him as the guy in charge when it comes to his system. This is no different than the respect that boxer gives to his senior trainer, a wrestler gives to his coach, or a gymnast gives to his or her coach. Could the average adult coach do what their pre-teen girls do out on the gymnastics floor? Probably not! But they are the father/mother figure expected to guide and take care of their athletes and are given the appropriate respect. To me, that is the core of any "Mo Duk", not doing tea ceremonies and bowing when someone enters the room and things like that.

I am also a senior military officer. One of the things taught in the military is that you respect the rank even if you don't respect the person that has it. You can despise someone senior to you but you still act respectful and render a salute when in uniform because they outrank you. If this was not true you would have good order and discipline breaking down at critical moments. This can be taken too far as well. People have abused their rank in various ways. And you can refuse to obey an order if you don't think it is a "lawful order." But you better have a darn good reason!!! It can't just be because you don't like the person giving the order!

So to me, "Mo Duk" is being respectful to someone in a position that is higher than yours. This is something seen in multiple social circles and multiple cultures. I think it is even more important in martial arts because it is far too easy for some "young stud" to decide they are indestructible and start acting like a total prick around everyone but their immediate peers.

 

[Juany118]

Australian cultural tradition.

• Making jokes at another's expense or "taking the piss" is common in Australian society and is often a bonding process. However, it is frowned upon and considered cowardly to make jokes in the absence of the subject. Contrary to many other countries, Australians will generally wait until the subject is present before making derogatory jokes. For example, when an Australian meets a New Zealander on holiday, they may ask if they brought velcro gloves in order to get a better grip on those Australian sheep.[7] (See point below re New Zealanders' thoughts on sheep jokes.

Etiquette in Australia and New Zealand - Wikipedia

If you dont like it you are racist.

Your thing there though is regarding bonding and typically when the target is there. That is different than globally disparaging a culture.

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[Gerry Seymour]

I don't see any reason to treat any instructor as a demigod. Nor do I feel a need to serve him tea when I've been teaching classes for him, helping him paint, clean and move premises, running the occasional errand, doing unpaid IT work, and being supportive in many other ways. Which is not to say I feel exploited, friends do stuff like that for each other.

My first instructor in the 1970's was not into the whole Sifu / disciple thing and was happy for me to call him "Dave" from day 1. He did other weird stuff like going out of his way to try to be friendly to other instructors and have students cross train, helping newly arrived instructors in town get set up, etc.

BJJ is proof that you don't have to take the cultural trappings along with the martial art to keep it real. Though what there is of Brazilian culture in BJJ isn't necessarily better overall than the Japanese culture that preceded it IMO.

I do believe in basic etiquette. I bow when I step onto the training space, I see it as a mental switch to get serious. Either a bow before sparring standup WC, or slap and fist bump in BJJ, set the mood and keep the proceedings respectful. I like the BJJ handshake with everyone at the end of class as well, basically saying "what happened on the mat stays on the mat."

No instructor really wants to be surrounded by a$$-kissers, do they?

Many arts bring in parts of the etiquette of the orgin country, and that can cause problems. For instance, the tea ceremony thing. To Westerners, that just doesn't make sense to us. From the Chinese (and even Japanese) cultural perspective, though, it has a specific meaning, and is acceptable to them because of that cultural background.

Some Americans even have a problem with the formal, kneeling bow used in most Japanese arts. It feels subservient to them, though to the Japanese it's just a formal ritual. Re-framing those rituals can help people find a new framework that helps them. For instance, I teach my students to use the moment of bowing in as a miniature meditation to get their minds clear for learning - one of the steps toward better mindfulness during their training.

As for the "demi-god" aspect, I think this is another misapplied cultural import. I'll speak from the Japanese lineage, since that's where I know it, but I suspect it's similar in the Chinese arts. Traditionally, there has been an in-born level of deference and respect in Japan for those more senior in any given area (age, experience, etc.). That translated to a fairly strict etiquette that is easy for people from that culture to follow. When it was brought to Westerners, it appears that a significant number of students misunderstood it, and turned it into an unquestionable authority as they became instructors. This serves nobody - neither instructor nor students benefit from this.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

No instructor really wants to be surrounded by a$$-kissers, do they?

In my experience, some do. I believe it to be about personal insecurities.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Well I think we can all understand why you would take this stance but the way you dismiss it borders on bigotry because what you are talking about isn't a "martial arts culture" thing. The idea of respecting your elders in Martial Arts is simply an extension of filial piety which permeates both Confucian thought Chinese Culture overall.

It's not just Chinese or Confucian philosophy. It's characteristic of many traditional cultures the world over which teach a very hierarchical worldview:

Parent > child
Elder > younger
Teacher > student
Master > apprentice
Senior student > junior student
Man > woman
Nobility > commoner
etc, etc

Ideally, these philosophies try to teach a somewhat balanced view where duties (protection, care, instruction)are owed from the "higher" person in each pairing towards the "lower" person to match the respect and obedience owed from the "lower" to the "higher." In practice, the demands tend to end up much more one-sided and frequently the relationships produced by this sort of worldview end up being exploitive and/or abusive towards the person on the low end of the ladder.

Even if both parties in the relationship do live up to the ideals of the traditional worldview, with one side providing guidance and the other side providing respect and obedience, I personally find such constraints to be somewhat distorting of the reality and basic humanity of the participants. Our identities and our relationships are much more complex than anything which can be reduced to a one-dimensional hierarchy.

My personal approach is to give respect to everyone as a matter of course. I give additional respect to those who earn it (through their character, their attitude, their abilities, their accomplishments, etc), but only in the domain where they've earned it. I don't expect obedience* from anyone.

*(In class, I do expect anyone who wants to participate to work on whatever tasks/drills/activities the instructor presents. This applies even if I am taking the class and the instructor is junior to me in rank or experience or ability. That's not a matter of hierarchy, it's just what distinguishes a class from an open mat.)

 

[Juany118]

It's not just Chinese or Confucian philosophy. It's characteristic of many traditional cultures the world over which teach a very hierarchical worldview:

Parent > child
Elder > younger
Teacher > student
Master > apprentice
Senior student > junior student
Man > woman
Nobility > commoner
etc, etc

Ideally, these philosophies try to teach a somewhat balanced view where duties (protection, care, instruction)are owed from the "higher" person in each pairing towards the "lower" person to match the respect and obedience owed from the "lower" to the "higher." In practice, the demands tend to end up much more one-sided and frequently the relationships produced by this sort of worldview end up being exploitive and/or abusive towards the person on the low end of the ladder.

Even if both parties in the relationship do live up to the ideals of the traditional worldview, with one side providing guidance and the other side providing respect and obedience, I personally find such constraints to be somewhat distorting of the reality and basic humanity of the participants. Our identities and our relationships are much more complex than anything which can be reduced to a one-dimensional hierarchy.

My personal approach is to give respect to everyone as a matter of course. I give additional respect to those who earn it (through their character, their attitude, their abilities, their accomplishments, etc), but only in the domain where they've earned it. I don't expect obedience* from anyone.

*(In class, I do expect anyone who wants to participate to work on whatever tasks/drills/activities the instructor presents. This applies even if I am taking the class and the instructor is junior to me in rank or experience or ability. That's not a matter of hierarchy, it's just what distinguishes a class from an open mat.)

Agreed, I was just trying to address the original claim that it was a Chinese Martial Art Tradition and not a Chinese Cultural Tradition.

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[LFJ]

...globally disparaging a culture.

...the original claim that it was a Chinese Martial Art Tradition and not a Chinese Cultural Tradition.

I haven't seen either in this thread. What are you talking about?

 

[guy b]

Actually, I think Guy was making a joke. He does have that kind of a sense of humor. We Yanks can be a bit literal sometimes.

Seems like nearly all times? I do agree that the British sense of humour doesn't seem to work very well with lots of other nationalities. Americans and Germans especially bad for some reason.

 

[Juany118]

I haven't seen either in this thread. What are you talking about?

Spoiler

<br /><br />Nor do I care. I don't need to get my "morality" from a silly martial art culture.

So we have someone that doesn't understand it was Chinese Culture simply also existing in a Chinese MA and disparaging said Chinese Cultural Tradition. You even went on later trying to justify it using examples of other Chinese Cultural traditions, such as face saving, to justify this statement. I can provide those quotes if need be as well.

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[anerlich]

Oftentimes the cultural traditions get misappropriated, unintentionally or intentionally, when grafted into another culture.

Some Anglos put on the airs and graces of a "Sifu", adopt Chinese artifacts and even styles of dress, when in fact no Chinese person ever actually acted or looked like that. They adopt their idea of Chinese culture, rather than Chinese culture., trying to live in a China that never existed. This may manifest itself in demanding a level of deference to the person concerned, and ways of conduct, which exist nowhere in either the appropriated or the native culture.

When I did do the compulsory Asian MA travel experience, I found the way people actually lived and trained there bore little resemblance to the ways the Gwailo instructor I was studying (Xingyi/Bagua) at the time conducted himself and ran his kwoon. I didn't stay at that Kwoon very much longer after I got back.

 

[anerlich]

This thread was going pretty well until we got into the "he said / she said / no I didn't / yes you did / you're a d1ck / no you are" stuff. IMO.

 

[guy b]

Oftentimes the cultural traditions get misappropriated, unintentionally or intentionally, when grafted into another culture.

Some Anglos put on the airs and graces of a "Sifu", adopt Chinese artifacts and even styles of dress, when in fact no Chinese person ever actually acted or looked like that. They adopt their idea of Chinese culture, rather than Chinese culture., trying to live in a China that never existed. This may manifest itself in demanding a level of deference to the person concerned, and ways of conduct, which exist nowhere in either the appropriated or the native culture.

Exactly.

 

[guy b]

This thread was going pretty well until we got into the "he said / she said / no I didn't / yes you did / you're a d1ck / no you are" stuff. IMO.

Agree

 

[Juany118]

This thread was going pretty well until we got into the "he said / she said / no I didn't / yes you did / you're a d1ck / no you are" stuff. IMO.

I agree, I would just say 2 things. First, I will admit to being anal retentive when it comes to the specific wording of posts. The basis of my interactions for 12 hours a day is recording what people say and then using those words to either assist them or charge them and it's something I don't have an easy time shutting off as my wife often reminds me.

Finally, about two pages (or more) that a number of us responded to could have been avoided by one simple statement...

"Okay using a belittling term to describe a cultural tradition was a bit off. I simply believe that someone who claims to be worthy of respect in a learned skill needs to earn that respect."

Or

"Okay maybe it makes sense in a school that exists in that culture but is that cultural tradition really relevant in a school in Munich, Paris, London or New York?"

Those of us that responded then would have simply said "okay that's cool" because I am fairly certain we all have that tradition(s) from another culture that we don't agree with or "get".

/Shrug.





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[Juany118]

Oftentimes the cultural traditions get misappropriated, unintentionally or intentionally, when grafted into another culture.

Some Anglos put on the airs and graces of a "Sifu", adopt Chinese artifacts and even styles of dress, when in fact no Chinese person ever actually acted or looked like that. They adopt their idea of Chinese culture, rather than Chinese culture., trying to live in a China that never existed. This may manifest itself in demanding a level of deference to the person concerned, and ways of conduct, which exist nowhere in either the appropriated or the native culture.

When I did do the compulsory Asian MA travel experience, I found the way people actually lived and trained there bore little resemblance to the ways the Gwailo instructor I was studying (Xingyi/Bagua) at the time conducted himself and ran his kwoon. I didn't stay at that Kwoon very much longer after I got back.

This is very true. I don't have a personal experience but my best friend was born in Hong Kong and her Grand Father was a CMA practitioner there until they emigrated in the 70's. When I first started studying MA years ago her Grand Father told me "if you look at Kung Fu schools and the students and Sifu are wearing "uniforms" that look like the clothes from a Wuxia movie, run away. We wore pants and t-shirts at school, MAYBE the Head of the School wore traditional clothing, but if he did it was because he grew up wearing that clothing, it has very little to do with Kung Fu."

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[KPM]

I too have had experience with a western instructor that tried to "out-Chinese" the Chinese.

 

[geezer]

I too have had experience with a western instructor that tried to "out-Chinese" the Chinese.

If you think it's bad now... look back at the late 70s during the kung fu craze inspired by Bruce Lee movies, the television series Kung-Fu, and Shaw Brothers films. China itself was largely unknown and inaccessible behind the "bamboo curtain", and Western ideas about CMA were heavily influenced by wuxia stories and Western fantasies about mysterious Chinese masters with a lot of early "New Age" thinking mixed in.

...at least that's what I ran into when I first started training in a mostly phony system that turned out to be pretty much a form of Hawaiian Kenpo with a lot of phony baloney Chinese trappings masquerading as Northern Shaolin.

Compared to that, the first Anglo WC instructor I studied with ...although not very good, seemed as authentic as heck!