Steve
Mostly Harmless
What about in shiu jao?
The Need to Be Recognized as Superior
- Thread starter Nobody Important
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Shuai jiao?
I think that if people are wearing clothes then grappling will usually involve clothes to some extent. Would be silly to ignore clothes since they function as big handles. Also very useful for choking people and tying up limbs.
We don't do a lot of clothing grabbing for grappling, either - mostly because we're self-defense oriented, and our attackers rarely are kind enough to don a dogi before attacking. We do use the clothing in attacks, though, and it can take a bit of a beating there. If we used the gi like Judo and BJJ do, we'd have to all use heavier dogi (which I personally prefer, but are more expensive).
Juany118
Senior Master
Sorry I should have clarified Shuai jiao is a sport (I think it may be the oldest documented "court sport" in China, I am talking combat/real fighting arts.
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Steve
Mostly Harmless
@gpseymour,
How is a jacket, hoody or shirt any different than a Gi? I mean, it might not stand job to the rigors of training, but I could use a t-shirt to choke you once and I'm sure even a light jacket would hold up to a throw.
It would seem to me that if you're training for "self defense", ignoring obvious advantages like the grips and opportunities to choke and control the bad guy that clothing affords. That sounds pretty short sighted.
How is a jacket, hoody or shirt any different than a Gi? I mean, it might not stand job to the rigors of training, but I could use a t-shirt to choke you once and I'm sure even a light jacket would hold up to a throw.
It would seem to me that if you're training for "self defense", ignoring obvious advantages like the grips and opportunities to choke and control the bad guy that clothing affords. That sounds pretty short sighted.
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Steve
Mostly Harmless
Yeah. That's not at all what you said. And I wasn't aware that shiu jao didn't qualify as a real fighting art. Do they know that?
Juany118
Senior Master
Maybe I should have said "specific" vs real, bad turn of phrase.
I look at it like say the difference between Pankration and Greco-Roman wrestling. Can both be used to fight effectively? Absolutely, but the later has a competition focus side with little modification, where as true Pankration is about crippling people, unless you modify it. So I think it kinda flows into the other discussion we have going on.
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Steve
Mostly Harmless
Maybe so, but I don't understand what the distinction has to do with no grip fighting or grabbing in CMA. What I mean is whether it's a real fighting art like wing chun (??) or a whatever you're talking about, it's a CMA that relies heavily on grip fighting and grabbing fabric. Where does this idea that it needs to be about crippling people come in?
A t-shirt won't provide the kind of leverage a gi will. The t-shirt will stretch a lot under the weight of dragging a person into a throw, where a gi will not. And, of course, what if the person isn't wearing a shirt (a real possibility in the Southern US during the Summer).
Steve
Mostly Harmless
This is how the United States Shuai Chiao organization describes the art. United States Shuai-chiao Association
I think he just wasn't including Shiu Jao in his original comment, because he views it as a competition-focused rather than a fight-focused style. It's not so much about the crippling-ness of the style (reducing those techniques is a natural effect of preparing for most competitions). If Shiu Jao is among the exceptions (grabbing cloth), then his original post still has validity.
I'd like to see some of that. I feel a YouTube search coming on.
Steve
Mostly Harmless
If the person is wearing a t-shirt, it might not work for a throw, but it would work just fine for a choke.
And if the person isn't wearing a shirt, then you wouldn't be able to use a shirt. That seems... pretty obvious. You'd probably want to also train for the contingency that the grips aren't going to be there.
Seriously. Aren't you the guy who went through a list of about 10 different scenarios where you're training with one arm, blindfolded, on uneven ground, etc? But the idea of training with grips and without is a serious conundrum? Come on, man.
Steve
Mostly Harmless
I think competition focused is MORE fight focused than otherwise. And entire style isn't an exception. Is it?
I didn't say anything about not using grips. We just don't tend to grip clothing much. It's part of how we work, so I'm not sure why it's such a big deal.
Yes, a t-shirt should work nicely for a choke. We just don't have that type of choke in NGA (I have it from Judo)...I wonder why those aren't in the common NGA curriculum. Offhand, I can't think of any reason they wouldn't fit with the basic principles of the art. Some thinkin' to do, now.
I don't know anything about the style, so I can't speak to that. I'm just going off what Juany posted.
Steve
Mostly Harmless
It's a pretty cool grappling style, from what I've seen. I've never trained in it, but I believe that @Kung Fu Wang does.
Steve
Mostly Harmless
It's not a big deal, but it's a funny inconsistency.
Hopefully he'll show up and share some thoughts about it, then. I'm fascinated by grappling styles that don't share a recent ancestry with NGA.
Not really an inconsistency, from my viewpoint. We don't do chokes of any sort. I'm not sure why Morita didn't include those in the art, and I can't think of any reason they should be either included or excluded. Wind chokes are dangerous enough that we probably wouldn't include them in basic curriculum (philosophical principle), but the blood chokes would fit, and they are consistent with the physical principles and positions we use.
