The Need to Be Recognized as Superior

[Steve]

@anerlich has it right imo. In my experience CMA grappling/Chin Na is largely limited to taking control of the body itself. The idea of grabbing clothing and using it for leverage etc. really isn't there so the idea of clothing designed to be grabbed never really cane up.

What about in shiu jao?

 

[guy b]

@anerlich has it right imo. In my experience CMA grappling/Chin Na is largely limited to taking control of the body itself. The idea of grabbing clothing and using it for leverage etc. really isn't there so the idea of clothing designed to be grabbed never really cane up.

Shuai jiao?

I think that if people are wearing clothes then grappling will usually involve clothes to some extent. Would be silly to ignore clothes since they function as big handles. Also very useful for choking people and tying up limbs.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

@anerlich has it right imo. In my experience CMA grappling/Chin Na is largely limited to taking control of the body itself. The idea of grabbing clothing and using it for leverage etc. really isn't there so the idea of clothing designed to be grabbed never really cane up.

We don't do a lot of clothing grabbing for grappling, either - mostly because we're self-defense oriented, and our attackers rarely are kind enough to don a dogi before attacking. We do use the clothing in attacks, though, and it can take a bit of a beating there. If we used the gi like Judo and BJJ do, we'd have to all use heavier dogi (which I personally prefer, but are more expensive).

 

[Juany118]

What about in shiu jao?

Sorry I should have clarified Shuai jiao is a sport (I think it may be the oldest documented "court sport" in China, I am talking combat/real fighting arts.

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[Steve]

@gpseymour,
How is a jacket, hoody or shirt any different than a Gi? I mean, it might not stand job to the rigors of training, but I could use a t-shirt to choke you once and I'm sure even a light jacket would hold up to a throw.

It would seem to me that if you're training for "self defense", ignoring obvious advantages like the grips and opportunities to choke and control the bad guy that clothing affords. That sounds pretty short sighted.

 

[Steve]

Sorry I should have clarified Shuai jiao is a sport (I think it may be the oldest documented "court sport" in China, I am talking combat/real fighting arts.

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Yeah. That's not at all what you said. And I wasn't aware that shiu jao didn't qualify as a real fighting art. Do they know that?

 

[Juany118]

Yeah. That's not at all what you said. And I wasn't aware that shiu jao didn't qualify as a real fighting art. Do they know that?

Maybe I should have said "specific" vs real, bad turn of phrase.

I look at it like say the difference between Pankration and Greco-Roman wrestling. Can both be used to fight effectively? Absolutely, but the later has a competition focus side with little modification, where as true Pankration is about crippling people, unless you modify it. So I think it kinda flows into the other discussion we have going on.

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[Steve]

Maybe so, but I don't understand what the distinction has to do with no grip fighting or grabbing in CMA. What I mean is whether it's a real fighting art like wing chun (??) or a whatever you're talking about, it's a CMA that relies heavily on grip fighting and grabbing fabric. Where does this idea that it needs to be about crippling people come in?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

How is a jacket, hoody or shirt any different than a Gi? I mean, it might not stand job to the rigors of training, but I could use a t-shirt to choke you once and I'm sure even a light jacket would hold up to a throw.

A t-shirt won't provide the kind of leverage a gi will. The t-shirt will stretch a lot under the weight of dragging a person into a throw, where a gi will not. And, of course, what if the person isn't wearing a shirt (a real possibility in the Southern US during the Summer).

 

[Steve]

This is how the United States Shuai Chiao organization describes the art. United States Shuai-chiao Association

Modern Shuaijiao (also spelled Shuai-chiao) is the culmination of the ancient, crude, practical and effective combat grappling method of the battlefield - that has evolved into a sophisticated and efficient no non-sense approach to combat. Its training method of using punches, kicks and joint-locks in the context of throwing can conform to all martial arts styles. Its philosophy share the same principle of Tai-chi Yin and Yang, the traditional cosmic law of China. Shuai-chiao's techniques are the culmination of tested grappling experience in the best environment - the battlefield. Today, it is still a part of military and police training as well as a national sport in China and Taiwan.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Maybe so, but I don't understand what the distinction has to do with no grip fighting or grabbing in CMA. What I mean is whether it's a real fighting art like wing chun (??) or a whatever you're talking about, it's a CMA that relies heavily on grip fighting and grabbing fabric. Where does this idea that it needs to be about crippling people come in?

I think he just wasn't including Shiu Jao in his original comment, because he views it as a competition-focused rather than a fight-focused style. It's not so much about the crippling-ness of the style (reducing those techniques is a natural effect of preparing for most competitions). If Shiu Jao is among the exceptions (grabbing cloth), then his original post still has validity.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

This is how the United States Shuai Chiao organization describes the art. United States Shuai-chiao Association

I'd like to see some of that. I feel a YouTube search coming on.

 

[Steve]

A t-shirt won't provide the kind of leverage a gi will. The t-shirt will stretch a lot under the weight of dragging a person into a throw, where a gi will not. And, of course, what if the person isn't wearing a shirt (a real possibility in the Southern US during the Summer).

If the person is wearing a t-shirt, it might not work for a throw, but it would work just fine for a choke.

And if the person isn't wearing a shirt, then you wouldn't be able to use a shirt. That seems... pretty obvious. You'd probably want to also train for the contingency that the grips aren't going to be there.

Seriously. Aren't you the guy who went through a list of about 10 different scenarios where you're training with one arm, blindfolded, on uneven ground, etc? But the idea of training with grips and without is a serious conundrum? Come on, man.

 

[Steve]

I think he just wasn't including Shiu Jao in his original comment, because he views it as a competition-focused rather than a fight-focused style. It's not so much about the crippling-ness of the style (reducing those techniques is a natural effect of preparing for most competitions). If Shiu Jao is among the exceptions (grabbing cloth), then his original post still has validity.

I think competition focused is MORE fight focused than otherwise. And entire style isn't an exception. Is it?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

If the person is wearing a t-shirt, it might not work for a throw, but it would work just fine for a choke.

And if the person isn't wearing a shirt, then you wouldn't be able to use a shirt. That seems... pretty obvious. You'd probably want to also train for the contingency that the grips aren't going to be there.

Seriously. Aren't you the guy who went through a list of about 10 different scenarios where you're training with one arm, blindfolded, on uneven ground, etc? But the idea of training with grips and without is a serious conundrum? Come on, man.

I didn't say anything about not using grips. We just don't tend to grip clothing much. It's part of how we work, so I'm not sure why it's such a big deal.

Yes, a t-shirt should work nicely for a choke. We just don't have that type of choke in NGA (I have it from Judo)...I wonder why those aren't in the common NGA curriculum. Offhand, I can't think of any reason they wouldn't fit with the basic principles of the art. Some thinkin' to do, now.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I think competition focused is MORE fight focused than otherwise. And entire style isn't an exception. Is it?

I don't know anything about the style, so I can't speak to that. I'm just going off what Juany posted.

 

[Steve]

I'd like to see some of that. I feel a YouTube search coming on.

It's a pretty cool grappling style, from what I've seen. I've never trained in it, but I believe that @Kung Fu Wang does.

 

[Steve]

I didn't say anything about not using grips. We just don't tend to grip clothing much. It's part of how we work, so I'm not sure why it's such a big deal.

Yes, a t-shirt should work nicely for a choke. We just don't have that type of choke in NGA (I have it from Judo)...I wonder why those aren't in the common NGA curriculum. Offhand, I can't think of any reason they wouldn't fit with the basic principles of the art. Some thinkin' to do, now.

It's not a big deal, but it's a funny inconsistency.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

It's a pretty cool grappling style, from what I've seen. I've never trained in it, but I believe that @Kung Fu Wang does.

Hopefully he'll show up and share some thoughts about it, then. I'm fascinated by grappling styles that don't share a recent ancestry with NGA.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

It's not a big deal, but it's a funny inconsistency.

Not really an inconsistency, from my viewpoint. We don't do chokes of any sort. I'm not sure why Morita didn't include those in the art, and I can't think of any reason they should be either included or excluded. Wind chokes are dangerous enough that we probably wouldn't include them in basic curriculum (philosophical principle), but the blood chokes would fit, and they are consistent with the physical principles and positions we use.