The Need to Be Recognized as Superior

[Juany118]

So, I'm a borderline bigot because I don't practice or respect your religion?

I'm not at all intolerant of people who hold beliefs that I find silly. Kowtow to your heart's content.

But respecting someone merely because of name or position is not a moral obligation or even morally virtuous. It's simply not a moral issue.

So, don't try to suggest to me that I somehow lack morality if I don't kowtow to people I don't think worthy of it.

No you can disagree with things but when you disagree with prejoritives you start walking the fine line between honest disagreement and bigotry. Saying simply "I don't agree with showing respect to people who haven't earned the respect, regardless if they are my elder or not" is different than actually insulting said cultural tradition.

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[LFJ]

Well, consider this...

Another part of Chinese "etiquette" is the idea of saving face. You've all heard of it, right?

There was a news story I read in China (one of many like it), where a mother allowed her child to piss freely on the floor of a supermarket in the fruit section.

The mother was told she should take the child to the restroom by an older female employee. The mother of course started shouting and scolding the woman, causing a pretty big scene and shocking the woman so badly she had a freaking heart attack.

The manager came over, and what do you think he did to fix the situation? Did he call the police to have the crazy customer removed from the store? Of course not! He had to "save face", and ended up apologizing profusely to the nutjob and giving her fruit free of charge!

This "face saving" is also considered etiquette. I think it is one of the stupidest concepts ever that leads to ridiculous acts like this. An employee had a heart attack for crying out loud, and that lady gets free fruit for letting her kid piss all over the floor and almost killing your employee?

I don't respect it at all. I think it's retarded. Am I a bigot?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Well, consider this...

Another part of Chinese "etiquette" is the idea of saving face. You've all heard of it, right?

There was a news story I read in China (one of many like it), where a mother allowed her child to piss freely on the floor of a supermarket in the fruit section.

The mother was told she should take the child to the restroom by an older female employee. The mother of course started shouting and scolding the woman, causing a pretty big scene and shocking the woman so badly she had a freaking heart attack.

The manager came over, and what do you think he did to fix the situation? Did he call the police to have the crazy customer removed from the store? Of course not! He had to "save face", and ended up apologizing profusely to the nutjob and giving her fruit free of charge!

This "face saving" is also considered etiquette. I think it is one of the stupidest concepts ever that leads to ridiculous acts like this. An employee had a heart attack for crying out loud, and that lady gets free fruit for letting her kid piss all over the floor and almost killing your employee?

I don't respect it at all. I think it's retarded. Am I a bigot?

So, since some people mis-apply a principle, you consider the entire cultural etiquette to be damned? That's twisted logic.

 

[LFJ]

You might be surprised, but more often than not I see it applied in some twisted ways.

Personally, I think martial morality should only be concerned with the ethical use of martial skill, and not have anything to do with requiring people to be put on pedestals for nothing more than name or authoritative position over you. Even if we're only talking etiquette. It allows a lot of BS in TCMAs to go unquestioned. That's how charlatans are empowered and beginners taken advantage of. Could even be dangerous. They sometimes teach suicidal knife defense.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

You might be surprised, but more often than not I see it applied in some twisted ways.

Personally, I think martial morality should only be concerned with the ethical use of martial skill, and not have anything to do with requiring people to be put on pedestals for nothing more than name or authoritative position over you. Even if we're only talking etiquette. It allows a lot of BS in TCMAs to go unquestioned. That's how charlatans are empowered and beginners taken advantage of. Could even be dangerous. They sometimes teach suicidal knife defense.

I don't think any of that (including putting someone on a pedastal as unquestionable) has to do with respect. You're still throwing out the entire concept of etiquette because some people are abusing portions of it.

 

[LFJ]

I don't think any of that (including putting someone on a pedastal as unquestionable) has to do with respect. You're still throwing out the entire concept of etiquette because some people are abusing portions of it.

What I'm throwing out is expected or forced respect as part of etiquette. I'm throwing out the idea that one is martially immoral if they don't respect someone for insufficient reason, or don't respect and accept the tradition of doing so.

Is it showing impropriety to not serve tea and kowtow to someone just for their name and position? Then I shall be improper.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

What I'm throwing out is expected or forced respect as part of etiquette. I'm throwing out the idea that one is martially immoral if they don't respect someone for insufficient reason, or don't respect and accept the tradition of doing so.

Is it showing impropriety to not serve tea and kowtow to someone just for their name and position? Then I shall be improper.

You're fighting me awfully hard on a concept I haven't put forward.

 

[LFJ]

But others have. Anyway, you all kowtow to your hearts' content. I'm only here for the punches. (Ethically applied of course. )

 

[Gerry Seymour]

But others have. Anyway, you all kowtow to your hearts' content. I'm only here for the punches. (Ethically applied of course. )

And so, you reply to me as if I said the same thing? That's an unproductive way to discuss the matter.

 

[Juany118]

What I'm throwing out is expected or forced respect as part of etiquette. I'm throwing out the idea that one is martially immoral if they don't respect someone for insufficient reason, or don't respect and accept the tradition of doing so.

Is it showing impropriety to not serve tea and kowtow to someone just for their name and position? Then I shall be improper.

I don't think anyone is saying your idea is outright wrong. We are simply saying that we disagree because
A. Showing respect is more about etiquette than anything.
B. That it is a product of a overall cultural tradition, not limited to Martial Arts.
C. That there is a way to voice such an attitude without demeaning said culture.

 

[LFJ]

Thinking it's a silly and destructive thing to bring into martial arts isn't a judgement of the entire culture.

 

[Transk53]

Thinking it's a silly and destructive thing to bring into martial arts isn't a judgement of the entire culture.

Maybe not, but etiquette is what it is. Don't have to agree with it, but should at least follow it to certain extent. If I went to Japan, I would find all the bowing a little silly, but I would still do it due to it being a cultural thing, as with their MA.

 

[LFJ]

Maybe not, but etiquette is what it is. Don't have to agree with it, but should at least follow it to certain extent. If I went to Japan, I would find all the bowing a little silly, but I would still do it due to it being a cultural thing, as with their MA.

Sure, I would too.

I'm just talking serving tea and publicly kowtowing to people who feel entitled and are demanding you give them face. Although they are the ones trying to look superior, forcing artificial subservience to save face is actually very beta behavior.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Sure, I would too.

I'm just talking serving tea and publicly kowtowing to people who feel entitled and are demanding you give them face. Although they are the ones trying to look superior, forcing artificial subservience to save face is actually very beta behavior.

Based on my experience (and my experience, only), that represents the same small proportion of people that you find taking that attitude in any culture. Lack of tea ceremony, bowing, and ancestor worship doesn't prevent that same entitlement and demand of unearned respect from appearing in US culture.

 

[LFJ]

Based on my experience (and my experience, only), that represents the same small proportion of people that you find taking that attitude in any culture. Lack of tea ceremony, bowing, and ancestor worship doesn't prevent that same entitlement and demand of unearned respect from appearing in US culture.

True.

 

[Nobody Important]

Sure, I would too.

I'm just talking serving tea and publicly kowtowing to people who feel entitled and are demanding you give them face. Although they are the ones trying to look superior, forcing artificial subservience to save face is actually very beta behavior.

You've just described half of America, the entitlement part anyways.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

You've just described half of America, the entitlement part anyways.

And the entire statement accurately describes older styles of management in the US.

 

[drop bear]

No you can disagree with things but when you disagree with prejoritives you start walking the fine line between honest disagreement and bigotry. Saying simply "I don't agree with showing respect to people who haven't earned the respect, regardless if they are my elder or not" is different than actually insulting said cultural tradition.

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Australian cultural tradition.

• Making jokes at another's expense or "taking the piss" is common in Australian society and is often a bonding process. However, it is frowned upon and considered cowardly to make jokes in the absence of the subject. Contrary to many other countries, Australians will generally wait until the subject is present before making derogatory jokes. For example, when an Australian meets a New Zealander on holiday, they may ask if they brought velcro gloves in order to get a better grip on those Australian sheep.[7] (See point below re New Zealanders' thoughts on sheep jokes.

Etiquette in Australia and New Zealand - Wikipedia

If you dont like it you are racist.

 

[anerlich]

I don't see any reason to treat any instructor as a demigod. Nor do I feel a need to serve him tea when I've been teaching classes for him, helping him paint, clean and move premises, running the occasional errand, doing unpaid IT work, and being supportive in many other ways. Which is not to say I feel exploited, friends do stuff like that for each other.

My first instructor in the 1970's was not into the whole Sifu / disciple thing and was happy for me to call him "Dave" from day 1. He did other weird stuff like going out of his way to try to be friendly to other instructors and have students cross train, helping newly arrived instructors in town get set up, etc.

BJJ is proof that you don't have to take the cultural trappings along with the martial art to keep it real. Though what there is of Brazilian culture in BJJ isn't necessarily better overall than the Japanese culture that preceded it IMO.

I do believe in basic etiquette. I bow when I step onto the training space, I see it as a mental switch to get serious. Either a bow before sparring standup WC, or slap and fist bump in BJJ, set the mood and keep the proceedings respectful. I like the BJJ handshake with everyone at the end of class as well, basically saying "what happened on the mat stays on the mat."

No instructor really wants to be surrounded by a$$-kissers, do they?

 

[anerlich]

Another part of Chinese "etiquette" is the idea of saving face. You've all heard of it, right?

I am an Anglo Australian and my last job had me working under a Chinese boss with all Chinese coworkers in my department. The boss's boss was also Chinese, though he had a better understanding of Australian mores and customs because he had lived here way longer, and I found him way easier to deal with, than my immediate boss.

A lot of the decisions made in that department, the other guys' attitude to the boss compared to mine, and other goings on, regularly blindsided and mystified me. Though my cultural ignorance was at least as much to blame for that as anything any of those people did.