The Nazi thing

[FearlessFreep]

I will say that one thing I think missed in all this in all the argument about whether or not DNC == Nazi is simply that I have seen in many contexts the assertion that Bush==Hitler and/or GOP == Nazi and I think all that should really be taken from Don's initial post is that that given plastic sword cuts both ways, albeit inaccurately

 

[Twin Fist]

Shesulsa,
the study was created for these discussions, and if Don choose's to post here more than anywhere else, thats within the rules.

You either are in favor of free speech or you are not. That includes Don's.

"The DNC will not send armed military police into the homes of Jews, Blacks or even Illegal Aliens to rob them of their wealth and kill the owners in concentration camps."

in point of fact the DNC wont kill those people, but it wants to rob the wealth of anyone lucky enough to be successful. it's called "wealth re-distribution" and it is a key plank in the DNC's manifesto

" The DNC will not confiscate properties nor businesses by use of military or civilian armed and violent forces."

Hillary just suggested taking all oil company profits, in effect siezing the company.

" Socialized health care has worked in more countries (nothing's perfect) than it has not worked in."

"works" is faily open to debate, and more importantly, when ever it is tried in a country with a population more than "tiny" it fails. Not to mention the fact that I am not obligated to pay for YOUR health care.

To try and get the thread back on track, yes, you can, if you try hard enough, find common traits between the nazi's and the Boy Scouts.

There are, of course, common traits between the Nazi's and the DNC

it MIGHT be alarmists, and annoying to liberals, but it is a fair topic for discussion.

 

[MBuzzy]

To try and get the thread back on track, yes, you can, if you try hard enough, find common traits between the nazi's and the Boy Scouts.

There are, of course, common traits between the Nazi's and the DNC

So if you CAN find common traits between Nazis and Boy Scouts, why is this particular comparision of concern? If you can find similarities between ANY two groups, doesn't that lessen the impact of any of the comparisons? I think that point that people are trying to make is that there may be similarities, but not in any major or meaningful area. There are no similarities that are causes for alarm - simply the same things that people disagree with and have always disagreed with due to party alliances.

Now if ANY party starts talking about the Master Race....then this discussion needs to be had.

 

[Sukerkin]

It'd also be nice if people would firm up their terms a little in these matters - using 'liberal' as a derogatory term is hardly good debating practise when, for many of us non-Americans, the Liberal party (aka Whigs) has a long and respectable tradition.

It has often been said that, at heart, most English people are Liberals, with their values of common-sense, consideration for others and social stability. How it's become a hated thing to have a social conscience in America is something of a mystery.

Sadly, a bi-polar system does not foster the middle ground and you end up with these ludicrous political discussions on martial arts forums. There are sites out there in Webland that cater specifically for discourse on political theory and the more knife-in-the-back practical nature of modern politics. Surely, if that's all you want to talk about those are the places to go?

Active, fervent, threads on non-martial-arts topics are always good to visit and read as a change of pace... but not when it's effectively the same refrain again and again.

 

[5-0 Kenpo]

I read through part of this, have read the Nazi documents before and I think, rather than hack up part of a book in a poor, inflammatory attempt to claim American Liberalism is The Devil, a side-by-side analysis would hold more water.

This is the classic bastardization the right has become famous for - and you know what? It doesn't work anymore.

The right has become famous for...? I believe both parties engage in this type of rhetorical behavior. As an example from Representative Peter Stark (D - California):

Mr. STARK. Mr. Chairman, I yield myself 2\1/2\ minutes.
Mr. Chairman, there are some of us who remember this world in the 1930s, when Hitler suspended the Bundestag to promulgate conservative ideology and not let people speak. It is a shame that the Republicans in the House, Mr. Chairman, have taken up that same ideology and are denying a chance for debate and open discussion of a budget. It does smack of fascism; and it is too bad, because the American people will recognize that and understand that in a free economy, and in a free country that created programs like Social Security and Medicare and special education and aid for dependent children and aid for people who are unable to care for themselves, for the disabled, that to deny them care is obscene.

source: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/651496/posts

Also, Chairman of the NAACP Julian Bond:

"The Republican Party would have the American flag and the swastika flying side by side,"

source: http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=48635

Socialized health care has worked in more countries (nothing's perfect) than it has not worked in. In fact, socialism itself is the reason Germany emerged from being one of the poorest nations in the world to one of the worlds largest superpowers.

Social security and welfare saved this country's poor and turned the population, over some years, into a thriving consumership - you know ... that bank of spending people enterprise relies upon for building wealth and creating economy.

If social welfare saved this countrys poor, then why are there still poor people? Quite frankly, it is the fact that this country has the lowest unemployment rate (4.6%) compared to that of Germany (9.1%), England (5.4%), and France (8%), countries with which the U.S. is readily compared. Perhaps that could have something to do with the reason why.

The U.S. also has an average number of percentage of people living below the poverty line as compared to those countries as well: U.S. (12%), Germany (11%), U.K. (14%) and France (6.2%, as of 2004).

source: CIA World Fact Book https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/

Now, I am not saying that socialism is necessarily a bad thing. I believe, however, that it can only work based on the cultural context in which it serves. That being said, I believe that it only works in a country with a homgeneous culture. As we all know, the U.S. is not such a place. In fact, there are those in the U.S. community who decry such a thing.

The DNC will not send armed military police into the homes of Jews, Blacks or even Illegal Aliens to rob them of their wealth and kill the owners in concentration camps.

The DNC will not confiscate properties nor businesses by use of military or civilian armed and violent forces.

What makes you think this? The U.S. has already done it based on the interpreatation of laws. See Asset Forfeiture laws, articles relating to the confiscation of firearms from both citizens and manufacturers, natural disaster survivor stories. This type of thing happens all the time. And by both parties when they are in charge.

Big Don - you apparently came here to gripe about Democrats bellyache about Liberalism in an egregious way. And it's all you do here, apparently. Howzabout you contribute to an art section? The one you study (or used to) perhaps?

And if this DNC = Nazi Party thing is something you got from the radio or some other conservative rag/blog, perhaps you might be better entertained by thinking for yourself.

Breathe, Don. There *IS* life after the Bush era.

WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Let me see here. Looking back at your posts for the last few weeks, I have yet to see you try to censor Elder999 for his multiple posts (count 7) bashing Bush. And now you have the cajones to accuse Big Don of griping. How so very hypocritical of you.

 

[Big Don]

Cuba has a much hyped socialist medical system, and yet, when Castro needed surgery, the bearded one went to Spain. If socialized medicine is so great, why wasn't he treated in Cuba?

 

[Big Don]

Duplicate
Duplicate

 

[Big Don]

The DNC will not send armed military police into the homes of Jews, Blacks or even Illegal Aliens to rob them of their wealth and kill the owners in concentration camps.

The DNC will not confiscate properties nor businesses by use of military or civilian armed and violent forces.

There are 120,000 Japanese who might disagree with you on those two points there...
Oh, and a Cuban, we can't forget Elian Gonzalez
What republican ordered this:?

 

[Big Don]

No where in this, or any other thread did I claim the DNC was "JUST LIKE THE NAZI's"
What I did do, was point out that a number of their stated policies are IDENTICAL to those of the NSDAP demands of 1928.

 

[Big Don]

I'm neither a liberal nor huffy nor am I saying there are not similarities. I am saying singling out anyone group such as this post has done by comparing it to another group from that past can be done for any group today and it is not proof of anything. Especially if you are using a partial comparison and making that out to be the whole. Gee I am tall blond and of Germanic (grater than 50%)decent and I did at one time take German therefore based on that I must be a Nazi supporter of Hitler if I am to take the stuff of this post seriously. And I am not a Nazi nor do I support Hitler. Oh and I am married to a woman form Beijing that grew up during the Cultural Revolution so I must be a communist and think Mao was an ok guy.. and I'm not and I don't. And here is a bit of a shock, based on the post in question… neither is my wife nor does she think that either.

OK liberals have similar things that they say does the fact that they support national health care mean they are a racist regime that wants to round up a particular group for purposes of genocide?

Does the fact that they want to give money to the elderly mean they are about to circumvent the Maginot Line and invade France or blitzkrieg Poland

Does anything that they say mean they are also considering themselves a master race and about to practice social Darwinism on a global scale?

Gee, we covered the Democratic Party Platform endorsing slavery before... LINK Not to mention Margret Sanger...

It is a gross lack of historical understanding at best or an out right omission of facts in order to inflame and make a point IMO which makes the whole thing, to me, inflammatory and silly.

Really, people with, in their opinions, the best of intentions have done some fairly horrific things...

 

[Big Don]

On an episode of the Simpsons, Sideshow Bob was running for Mayor.

Well, I do disagree with his Bart killing policy

Homer.
It is interesting that an idea put forth by a conservative can be, and often is, called fascist, nazi, etc, but, pointing out that many of the demands of Hitler in 1928 are IDENTICAL to the DNC's stated policies is somehow wrong.

 

[CuongNhuka]

Cuba has a much hyped socialist medical system, and yet, when Castro needed surgery, the bearded one went to Spain. If socialized medicine is so great, why wasn't he treated in Cuba?

Well, Cuba is not a Socialist Coutry, so you cann't really call it "Socialised". However, that aside, it's because when every element of a certain area of the economy is controlled by one person, it becomes a flop (be it President or owner of an monopoly). Thus, I like what the British have!

 

[Sukerkin]

It is interesting that an idea put forth by a conservative can be, and often is, called fascist, nazi, etc, but, pointing out that many of the demands of Hitler in 1928 are IDENTICAL to the DNC's stated policies is somehow wrong.

I think it's the repetition more than anything else BD.

Airing your views is one thing but harping on the same refrain time after time, when it's one that is almost bound to cause pointless friction, is disruptive.

As to 'the other side', well like I said to TF the other day, I'd have to go look at how this started.

However, I don't recall seeing a daily tide of Bush-Bashing that wasn't just normal political cynicism until it ramped up in coincidence with the Purity of Republicans and Demonic Democrats posts.

Still, chicken and egg cycles reach a point where it doesn't matter so much who started them but whether they stop or not.

 

[elder999]

As to 'the other side', well like I said to TF the other day, I'd have to go look at how this started.

However, I don't recall seeing a daily tide of Bush-Bashing that wasn't just normal political cynicism until it ramped up in coincidence with the Purity of Republicans and Demonic Democrats posts.

April 6, 2008. for me, before that, though, Christmas Eve, 2007........

 

[Xue Sheng]

Gee, we covered the Democratic Party Platform endorsing slavery before... LINK Not to mention Margret Sanger...
Really, people with, in their opinions, the best of intentions have done some fairly horrific things...

And yet no response to owners of Volkswagens... could it be your favorite politician owns one.... or.... could it be.... oh no Don… say it ain’t so…. that you own or once did own……… a….a…. Volkswagen

 

[Ahriman]

Ehhhhhh...
Those who want to get control have to play on those things the population wants. These are simple things - panem et circenses, basically.
You can play on their desire to live freely or on their desire to get everything they need without much effort put into getting those. You can play on their desire to have a group (political, racial, religious, etc) they can freely hate (give the nation an enemy against whom the nation unifies). Etc etc......
Those who want to get control will use these methods. Not may use, not sometimes use, they will use. Their usage has nothing to do with the desired goals of the persons using them. They are just methods to lure in voters.
So comparing policies is just plain stupid. Comparing the methods of working governments is not stupid.

...

And there aren't evil governments. There are different kinds. Differences can go to that level where it contradicts our ideas about how humans should live. My favourite example is ancient Athens, the hyped democracy with slavery, aggressive wars, slave hunting as a sport, ignoring and sometimes killing "low quality" newborns and so on. When differences reach a certain level or/and the government can't take care of things reliably the inhabitants start revolting, nearby countries get angry at the government's actions and the government goes into history as evil. Hitler's dictatorship undeniably reached this level at a time but wasn't at that level when it started.

 

[Andy Moynihan]

Still, chicken and egg cycles reach a point where it doesn't matter so much who started them but whether they stop or not.

Actually, both appeared simultaneously as a chicken omelette.

And it stopped when I ate it.

 

[5-0 Kenpo]

I think it's the repetition more than anything else BD.

Airing your views is one thing but harping on the same refrain time after time, when it's one that is almost bound to cause pointless friction, is disruptive.

As to 'the other side', well like I said to TF the other day, I'd have to go look at how this started.

However, I don't recall seeing a daily tide of Bush-Bashing that wasn't just normal political cynicism until it ramped up in coincidence with the Purity of Republicans and Demonic Democrats posts.

Still, chicken and egg cycles reach a point where it doesn't matter so much who started them but whether they stop or not.

It appears to me that you are now making excuses for the Bush-bashing that occurs here.

Again, where is the criticism of Elder999, and his many posts by the same people who are bashing Big Don now?

 

[Tez3]

It appears to me that you are now making excuses for the Bush-bashing that occurs here.

Again, where is the criticism of Elder999, and his many posts by the same people who are bashing Big Don now?

Bush bashing?

In my country there is a long and honoured tradition of 'bashing' those in power. Since the invention of printing political pamphlets lampooning our political and royal leaders has been rife. We have comedians, satirists, politicals cartoonists and ordinary people all taking pops some very scathing at out governments and our leaders... all of them. There is a very serious purpose to this, it keeps our political leaders grounded. Like the slaves who whispered constantly in the Roman emperors' ears as they proceeded in truimph "sic transit glori amundum" they serve to remind that they are only mortal and prone to making mortals mistakes.
It's fine to say we can change things by voting, the truth is that it changes very little but public opinion yes that can change things. No politician wants to be made fun of or have his policies lampooned in the media. It's true people power, in the past many have tried to silence their critics, some with draconian measure a la Hitler etc, this is testament to the power of public criticism.
Bush isn't immune to being criticised no political leader is, he doesn't deserve respect based soley on the fact he was elected president, not even if he's the president of the United States of America. In fact he deserves more criticism, if he can take it and answer his critics with good sense, courtesy and intelligence ( the same goes for his followers) he is doing his job. It is the Oppositions job to keep the government on the straight and narrow. They are a vital part of democracy.

http://www.empireclubfoundation.com/details.asp?FT=yes&SpeechID=252,

 

[Sukerkin]

I wouldn't characterise the comments being made as 'bashing' Don, Kenpo but then again I don't see it through your eyes. I can only speak for me but what I have said has been more to draw attention to a potential problem with being so single-focussed.

As for 'Bush Bashing', well, like Irene, I don't see it in the same light perhaps as the American members except to note again that it seems to have gotten more voluminous in response to the Bush-Fans posts. It is further to be emphasised that I'm not certain how this cycle got started but I do believe that it has to stop as it is not healthy argumentation but endless repeats of "'Tis" vs "'Tisn't".

That does noone any good and when it gets to the stage that it's aggrivating the likes of liberal minded me (who thinks that all politicians should be put in a field to fight it out and leave the rest of us alone) then it might be time to consider if its gone on long enough.

P.S. Just to be clear, that's the proper use of the word "liberal" there rather than the twisted version that's getting bandied about here as if it's the converse of Nazi.