The IMAF, INC Web page is up!!!!

[Icepick]

I think Bloodwood has it right... a lot of posturing and advertising may help one organization or another in the short term, but over time, the thinking school owners (& students) will meet with all of the organizations and choose the one that provides the most benefit to them.

I've seen most of them, just waiting for MARPPIO to come to town! Though I'm dyed in the wool WMAA, I'll try anything once, twice if I like it.

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Icepick
I've seen most of them, just waiting for MARPPIO to come to town! Though I'm dyed in the wool WMAA, I'll try anything once, twice if I like it.

I too am affiliated with Mr. Hartman's organization, but unlike both IMAFs and, if I understand them, MARPPIO, Mr. Hartman is not claiming headship of the Modern Arnis system. Thus I consider the WMAA to be in a somewhat different position than these others. I will be sticking with the WMAA.

Many here seem to think that these is only one side to the Jeff Delaney/MOTTs story. I think it's dangerous to hold such a simplistic view but I lack the inside knowledge that some of these posters have. I must admit that the MOTTs have come off looking better than Mr. Delaney in this mess, in my opinion.

It has been interesting to hear the thoughts of posters here but I look forward to having a chance to interact with representatives of each of the groups and form my own opinion. It appears that MARPPIO will be the hardest to sample for those in the Midwest--they have four seminars listed now but all are in littoral states.

 

[Mao]

Just a couple of comments:
There should be no ambiguity about who is in charge of any of the respective groups. As for IMAF,inc., it is Dr. Randi Shea. Anyone in this org. will tell you this, myself included. In the WMAA, it's Tim Hartman. In the others.........WHO CARES I have tremendous respect for the leaders of both. I am on the Board of Directors of IMAF,inc. and I still like Gatorade. I do not believe that the fact that we are in diff. org.'s would prohibit us from training together. The MOTT's also have alot of respect for Tim. I do not believe that the Professors art will be gone soon. Not as long as I have breath. I would venture to say the Whoopass feels the same. The MOTT's and Timmy too! THATS RIGHT ................I SAID TIMMY:boing2: I have known all of the aforementioned for a number of years and can say that, with any of them, you'll get Prof. Remy Presas' art of Modern Arnis. None of these people will let anything happen to it. For this, I am grateful.

 

[bloodwood]

If this is an olive branch from the IMAF,inc towards the WMAA then we're on the right track. It would be a plesant change of pace.
Thanks MAO

 

[Cthulhu]

Just tossing my two yen in as a non-biased observer...

I think the fact that Mr. Hartman has made no claims to leadership or successorship to the Modern Arnis system speaks volumes. He is simply continuing to head the group he had already started, with Professor Presas's blessings. He isn't unduly advertising (read: whoring) himself and by all appearances is simply doing the best he can to promote his art

Cthulhu
still in mourning and back to lurking

 

[Celadora]

Conserning the successorship of IMAF arranged by Professor Presas before his passing:

Has it occured to anyone that perhaps the Professor instated the 2 co-successors and 7 MOTTS to see if they could take his real lessons, lessons on living and working together, and put them to good use? A sort of final test, to be sure. Whether the Professor is now laughing his head off or rolling in his grave with disgust over the split of the IMAF, no one will ever know. However, I feel like he arranged the matter on purpose as his final test. And in my opinion, JD and Dr. RS failed.

 

[Mao]

My comments were not necessarily an offer of an olive branch. Tim and I do not need an olive branch. We are already on the right track. I think that I can speak for IMAF,inc. as I have before in that the group has alot of respect for Datu Hartman. I can see a day when the two groups work in tandem respectfully and peacefully. There should not be a chasm twixt the two. I do not think that that day is far off.
As for the sucession regarding J.D. and Dr. Shea, Dr. Shea has most definately not failed! He is doing exactly what Prof. Presas asked him to do. J.D. on the other hand has done some things that the Prof. had asked him not to do and not done things that the Prof. had asked him to do. Perhaps this comment was from someone who doesn't really know the full story. I think it was George Washington who said "Better to keep your mouth closed and have others think you stupid than open your mouth and prove them right." I am not aiming that at anyone in particular. It has been said before that there will be those who don't know all the facts but will still want to comment. That's fine. Just be aware that there are those who do know the facts that may correct you. The only way you'll know is to ask. Peace.

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Mao
Dr. Shea has most definately not failed! He is doing exactly what Prof. Presas asked him to do. J.D. on the other hand has done some things that the Prof. had asked him not to do and not done things that the Prof. had asked him to do. Perhaps this comment was from someone who doesn't really know the full story.

Most of us do not know the full story, but I think you are failing to see the point made by Celadora. It's a rare situation where one party is 100% at fault and the other party is as pure as the driven snow. Perhaps that is the case here but it seems more likely that, as in any divorce, there is some blame that can be attached to both sides even if one is significantly more at fault than the other. The MOTTs surely feel that they have been wronged by Mr. Delaney; I suspect he feels that he has been wronged or misunderstood; the point is that there may be some truth to both sides.

I think it was George Washington who said "Better to keep your mouth closed and have others think you stupid than open your mouth and prove them right." I am not aiming that at anyone in particular. It has been said before that there will be those who don't know all the facts but will still want to comment. That's fine. Just be aware that there are those who do know the facts that may correct you.

Ah, may I be delivered from those who can see only their version of the truth.

I am reminded of a kung fu/Modern Arnis instructor in California with whom I worked out for a while. He was a spiritual man who always emphasized that one must be able to see the "infinite capacity for joy and the infinite capacity for sadness" (or for good and for bad) in each person. I took that lesson to heart; it's too easy and too simplistic to write a person off as entirely ill-motivated, entirely selfish. The world of adults has shades of grey where children see only good guys and bad guys.

I might add that those of us who do not know all the facts must make a decision nonetheless, and haughtiness such as this does not incline me towards the MOTTs either. I remind you that questions have arisen concerning the rapid rise in rank of some of them, but apparently some of them are still comfortable throwing rocks.

That quote is anonymous, by the way, but the Book of Proverbs and the writings of Confucious both contain very similar statements. Mark Twain and George Eliot are some others who have used it.

 

[Mao]

Hey Arnisador,

Relax. Don't get your back up in the air. You obviously, completely missed the point of my post. I was so not being haughty. Those who know me know that I am far from being haughty. Try to get the essence of my post. The POINT is that Dr. Shea is doing EXACTLY what the Professor asked of him. The Prof. did not ask him to get into a **** storm with people who only want to argue. He also asked Dr. Shea to work with J.D., more specifically, he appointed Dr. Shea as successor and appointed J.D to help him. Dr. Shea tried to work with J.D. to the possible detriment of the group. Why, because the Prof. ASKED him to. J.D. was more interested in furthering his OWN interests. J.D. made the move of effectively FIRING everyone else because he didn't want to work with THEM. Take notice that EVERYONE that the Prof. appointed is STILL together except who............J.D.. Does this not say something??
I do not see only MY version of the truth. This is evidenced by the fact that I am still friends with Tim Hartman. I know what the issues are between he and the MOTT's. I still think of tim as a brother. If I only saw MY version, I wouldn't be friendly to both groups.
Some people ARE entirely ill motivated and selfish and it is naive to not think so, simplistic or not. At this point it certainly NOT a grey area.
You are entirely right, you must make your own decisoin. I don't care who your inclined toward. I'm not here to sway you one way or the other. I am simply speaking truth. Some will hear it, some won't. If your going to make an INFORMED decosion, maybe you SHOULD get all the facts.
Who of the MOTT's have thrown rocks? WAKE UP!

 

[Datu Tim Hartman]

I see that I have a lot of reading to do. The only thing I have to say at the moment is that it's good to be back!

 

[GouRonin]

You mean they threw you out of the country, right?
:lol::ladysman::angel:

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Mao
Hey Arnisador,

Relax.

Consider it done.

The POINT is that Dr. Shea is doing EXACTLY what the Professor asked of him. The Prof. did not ask him to get into a **** storm with people who only want to argue. He also asked Dr. Shea to work with J.D., more specifically, he appointed Dr. Shea as successor and appointed J.D to help him.

Here is an area wherein I am in need of additional facts. My understanding was that Dr. Schea and Mr. Delaney were appointed as co-equals--that both were Co-Successors of equal stature, rights, and responsibilities. Your statement and the statement on the www.modernarnis.net web site seem to imply that Dr. Schea always had a status above and beyond that of Mr. Delaney, who like Dr. Schea and the other MOTTs had a status above and beyond rank. Could you please clarify for me your statement above that I take to mean that Dr. Schea was the successor and that Mr. Delaney was appointed a helpe or assistant to Dr. Schea?

J.D. made the move of effectively FIRING everyone else because he didn't want to work with THEM.

I simply don't understand how this could happen if Dr. Schea was the Chairman and the Successor. This is a sticking point for me in my understanding of this issue. By what authority could Mr. Delaney fire people without Dr. Schea's approval?

Take notice that EVERYONE that the Prof. appointed is STILL together except who............J.D.. Does this not say something??

Yes, it speaks volumes. I agree.

Some people ARE entirely ill motivated and selfish and it is naive to not think so, simplistic or not. At this point it certainly NOT a grey area.

Do you believe that Mr. Delaney is such a person? I gather that the answer is Yes. Still, I wonder if he wouldn't tell a similar tale of non-cooperation and having the best interests of the art at heart. I am loathe to believe that the the Professor could be quite this naive, despite his aversion to inter-personal confrontation and his predisposition toward seeing the best in people.

You are entirely right, you must make your own decisoin. I don't care who your inclined toward. I'm not here to sway you one way or the other. I am simply speaking truth. Some will hear it, some won't. If your going to make an INFORMED decosion, maybe you SHOULD get all the facts.

I appreciate the comments and information. I am unable to consider the source as I do not know you beyond what I know of you from your postings here. (Well, perhaps we have crossed paths and even sticks.) But indeed I must make a decision and woould like it to be an informed one. Fortunately I have faith in Mr. Hartman's guidance in this matter.

Who of the MOTT's have thrown rocks? WAKE UP!

At or about Mr. Delaney? Has this not happened?

Perhaps the situation is as one-sided as you say, but perhaps also you will grant that situations such as these are very rarely as one-sided as either of the sides states.

 

[Brian Johns]

<<<<I simply don't understand how this could happen if Dr. Schea was the Chairman and the Successor. This is a sticking point for me in my understanding of this issue. By what authority could Mr. Delaney fire people without Dr. Schea's approval? >>>>

Simply put, JD had control of the website. He used that website to fire everyone and install himself and others to his so called board. See the home page of professorpresas.com. Look at who's the Chairman and who he installed on this so called board. JD just made a move on his own. You asked "by what authority could Mr. Delaney fire people without Dr. Schea's approval ?" That question proves the point. He had no authority to do what he did, which is precisely why the MOTTs have now formed their own organization and came out with their own website. They have tried to work with JD to no avail.

WOO!!

 

[Mao]

Dear Arnisador,
Please forgive the irritation in my last post. As you can tell, modern arnis is one of my passions. That and of course my lovely wife who, by the way, is sitting with me now adding her view which is an informed one as she has known everything that I do about the issues. Datu Hartman can attest to her candidness.
As has been infered, Prof. Presas could certainly have done a better job of laying things out in terms of leadership. He did the best he could inder the circumstances as I'm sure he did not plan to fall ill. Be that as it may, there are those who are where they are because Prof. put them there. I, and others, had sat by unable to effect any change for some time. The larger picture was not that difficult to see for some because we all knew each other, and some of us even, of all things, communicated. I had the opportunity to know what certain peoples opinion was of some other certain persons. I realize that this may sound vague. I do not want to use names right now. I know how the Prof. felt about certain people and why. He had always considered Dr. Shea the chairman of the board. He and all but one of the MOTT's are still a very tight group. We intend to run things as professionally and ethically as possible. I applaud anyone who chooses to be a part of WMAA. Tim knows well what he's doing. I would applaud, perhaps even a little more , anyone who chooses join IMAF,inc.. Both are very good groups run by very knowledgable people.
I do agree that there are always more than one side to a story. I just happen to know, to a large extent, the real story, the in's and out's, the real deal, the inside skinny as it were.
I would be happy to answer any questions asked of me. You understand the statement regarding Dr. Sheas positoin correctly. Any more questions? C'mon, bring it ! That's what I'm talkin' 'bout! Uh huh!

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Mao
Be that as it may, there are those who are where they are because Prof. put them there. I, and others, had sat by unable to effect any change for some time. The larger picture was not that difficult to see for some because we all knew each other, and some of us even, of all things, communicated. I had the opportunity to know what certain peoples opinion was of some other certain persons. I realize that this may sound vague. I do not want to use names right now. I know how the Prof. felt about certain people and why. He had always considered Dr. Shea the chairman of the board. He and all but one of the MOTT's are still a very tight group. We intend to run things as professionally and ethically as possible.

Mao, thanks for providing your information and persopective and I apologize to you for my tone. Modern Arnis is also important to me and as I sit here many miles away from all that is happening it is quite frustrating! I see that as you say all but one of those chosen to lead are attempting to maintain cohesion and the Professor's positive atmosphere. I was somewhat dismayed by the Professor's evident decision, in the end, not to include my friend and instructor Mr. Hartman, but he has done very well for himself and needs no sympathy from me.

I do agree that there are always more than one side to a story. I just happen to know, to a large extent, the real story, the in's and out's, the real deal, the inside skinny as it were.
I would be happy to answer any questions asked of me. You understand the statement regarding Dr. Sheas positoin correctly. Any more questions? C'mon, bring it ! That's what I'm talkin' 'bout! Uh huh!

The fact that Dr. Schea was alone at the top and that Mr. Delaney was not co-equal with him is different than what I had understood, though I have had much more opportunity to read Mr. Delaney's statements in Black Belt etc. than any by Dr. Schea. Allow me to raise a possibly delicate question: I have met Dr. Schea but it has been many years. Mr. Delaney claims to have been traveling and training with the Professor extensively before his death. I have heard that Dr. Schea had been relatively inactive in the practice of arnis recently due to the pressures of his day job. I would appreciate comment on this--I would be happy to hear that I have been misinformed once again!--and am curious how active he as head of the IMAF will be in seminars and other teaching events. If Mr. Delaney's claims are accurate then Mr. Delaney certainly seems to have been the person the Professor was physically preparing to succeed him as instructor (between him and Dr. Schea). Perhaps this is my question: Had there not been a schism, what would Mr. Delaney's intended role have been, and what would Dr. Schea's intended role have been--what was entailed in the position of "Chairman of the IMAF"? I am imagining that Mr. Delaney would have been the chief instructor and that Dr. Schea would have been the chief administrator. Were there disagreements about each person's scope of authority preceding the "firing" by Mr. Delaney?

I understand that the Professor trusted Dr. Schea. Not only is Dr. Schea a pleasant, polite, and respectful individual, but the Professor was himself always very respectful of an educated person, particularly teachers and physicians. I have little doubt but that Dr. Schea is acting in what he perceives as the art's best interests. I wish I could hear Mr. Delaney's side of this story; he has written a lot but not on this particular issue that I have seen. His claim of sole successorship seems to contradict his own earlier claims of co-successorship and I find the self-styled title of "Grandmaster" that he is using a bit unsettling.

Here's what I would truly like to see: A copy of the relevant portion of the will or other document that set up this structure. Is this information publicly available? Is not a will generally public information, as a matter of law? There have been so many references to it.

 

[Celadora]

People sure get defensive aweful quickly around here!

About the ¨failing¨of JD and Dr. Schea:

There sure is a lot of Delany-bashhing going on. Up until about a month ago, I would have been willing to defend him in one aspect; no he is not following the guidelines set by the Professor and yes he might appear as power-hungry, but I felt that he was doing what he thought was best for the future of the IMAF, as misguided as that might be. And I gave him credit for that. However, now I do not feel comfortable saying such, things have gone too far astray.

But the failing of Dr. Schea as well: Arnisador praises Dr. Schea for his eduaction, his intellegence, his leadership abilities. He is the elder and the diplomat; could it be that the Professor laid the responsibility of holding the group together on his shoulders, feeling that he was the most capable to do such? Since I aparently do not know the whole story, could someone answer me this question: When things first began to look shakey a year ago, did Dr. Schea ever go to Delaney as friends, sit down with him, and politely talk about how to keep the group united and share their aparent co-leadership? Or did he wait around without acting until Delaney had gone so far that the MOTT´s had no other choice to be branch off or get fired or whatever story you choose to quote? I like the question posed about, ¨Where was Dr.Schea when Delaney was getting his name in Black Belt magazine and leading seminars and such?¨

When a parent dies and inheritance is divided between a large family, some families are torn apart by the fighting of who gets what, while others remain united and as close as ever. Is it that the inheritance is shared equally in some families and in others no? Doubtful; there is always someone who gets something extra, a favorite heirloom or such. What holds some families together is maturaty and companionship, the ability to overlook minor differences and work together. And the ability to keep each other in line when one person begins to stray afar.

Guilt truly is shared by all.

 

[arnisador]

Celadora offers an interesting perspective.

On the other hand, the splits have happened and I think that one must soon begin focusing on the actions of the various groups rather than how they came to be. I look forward to attending a seminar or camp sponsored by each of the groups. I think that I will be able to tell if the let's have fun and learn feeling that I expect is there.

 

[spdmn]

I have met Dr. Schea but it has been many years. Mr. Delaney claims to have been traveling and training with the Professor extensively before his death. I have heard that Dr. Schea had been relatively inactive in the practice of arnis recently due to the pressures of his day job. I would appreciate comment on this--I would be happy to hear that I have been misinformed once again!--and am curious how active he as head of the IMAF will be in seminars and other teaching events. If Mr. Delaney's claims are accurate then Mr. Delaney certainly seems to have been the person the Professor was physically preparing to succeed him as instructor (between him and Dr. Schea). Perhaps this is my question: Had there not been a schism, what would Mr. Delaney's intended role have been, and what would Dr. Schea's intended role have been--what was entailed in the position of "Chairman of the IMAF"? I am imagining that Mr. Delaney would have been the chief instructor and that Dr. Schea would have been the chief administrator.

As far as I know, Dr. Schea has also been travelling with the Professor, may not be every seminar but often enough. People that know Dr. Schea recognize he is always in the background helping.

Chuck Guass and Ken Smith had also travelled extensively with the Professor. I have trained with Chuck and all the MOTT's, and Tim Hartman. Everyone of them has far more experience than JD. I had also attended seminars with JD, which was far from enlightenment.

To respond to Arnisadoris's comment, even if Dr. Schea is not around, any one of the MOTT's can easily be the Chief Instructor.

 

[Mao]

Most who know Dr. Shea will agree that he is not nor does he choose to be the front man so to speak. He is always there in a quieter capacity. He has very strong leadership and guidance skills. He is a quiet, soft spoken person. That is not to say that he is weak. Cross sticks with him and you can tell that he is and exceptional practitioner.
To touch on Arnisador's question, Dr. Shea had traveled with the Prof. quit a alot also. Tim Hartman had traveled with the Prof. alot, too. Chuck Gauss and Ken Smith also. These people had traveled with the Prof. for several years. J.D. had only relatively recently benn doing this, perhaps for the last few years.
As for what Dr. Shea had been doing while J.D. had been doing his thing, I personally asked him this question. In part, his answer was that he was not about changing what the Prof. had done but was about moving forward from the now. He did try to talk to J.D. about the issues between J.D. and the other MOTT's. J.D. did have issues with them. One of them was that he didn't feel that he was getting enough respect from them. Their side would be that he got the respect that he deserved. Anyone who has trained with any of these people could tell the vast difference between them. The MOTT's had tried to work with J.D., however, J.D. would almost always separate himself from them. For instance, if one of the MOTT 's was teaching a segment at a camp, J.D. would disapear whereas the other MOTT's would be around to help. J.D. was usually off with someone who is now part of his group. This woman had about 3-4 years in the art. The point to all this is that people tried to work with J.D. but he seemed to want to have his own gig form the beginning. He seemed to separate himself most of the time. This is also evidenced by his actions with regards to the former website. He began excluding everyone else. Tim Hartman can speak to this.
I sincerely hope that people can attend a camp with IMAF,inc. so that they can see first hand the enthusiasm and energy and cohesion of this group.

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Mao
As for what Dr. Shea had been doing while J.D. had been doing his thing, I personally asked him this question.

Thanks for this information; it is enlightening.

For instance, if one of the MOTT 's was teaching a segment at a camp, J.D. would disapear whereas the other MOTT's would be around to help. J.D. was usually off with someone who is now part of his group.

This speaks volumes to me--I remember at how many camps in the late 80s and early 90s Mr. Hartman and I bore the brunt of the instructional duties while other black belts schmoozed and lounged. It was just the right thing to do. We were not kind in our comments to one another concerning those who cared more for politicking than helping.

I sincerely hope that people can attend a camp with IMAF,inc. so that they can see first hand the enthusiasm and energy and cohesion of this group.

I hope to be able to do so.

Thanks again for your comments. I only wish that a representative of Mr. Delaney's organizaztion would participate as well.