The Guard in self defense?

[Hanzou]

This topic popped up twice in the grappling forum, and I felt it would be an interesting topic to discuss here.

I felt that this was better served for the self defense forum instead of just the grappling forum is because several self-defense styles have incorporated the position into their fighting systems. Krav Maga, Toshindo, and Jeet Kun Do being a few examples.

However some self defense advocates stress that the guard is a bad position to be in, and should be avoided.

To help this conversation along, here's information about the position;

Guard grappling - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

So my questions are as follows; What is the Guard's place in self defense? Is the Guard a dominant, inferior, or neutral position? Should people learn to fight from Guard, or better utilize their training time elsewhere?

 

[RowdyAz]

I think it's definitely worth while taking the time to learn about the different guards and so forth because once the fight goes to the ground that is the reality you're faced with. Escapes are a big part of ground fighting to, so I find any learning would be beneficial to ones skill set. Guard is a dominant position in general and even an un trained fighter generally has an idea how to make the most of it

 

[Buka]

If we're talkng self defense here - it all depends on the individual. I know I should click on that link and read it, but I ain't going to. (what a jerk I am) I'm a small guy, if you're good enough you'll probably overpower me and get me down, and I'm going to get my legs around you, whether you like it or not, whether you believe that or not. It's where I spent most of my grappling career, be that good or bad.

If you're a more experienced grappler with a will as strong as mine, then I go out fighting, which ain't a bad way to go when you think about it. Better than being hit by a bus. If you aren't a better grappler - if you don't defeat me in the first ten seconds, maybe even five, the last thing you're going to say in my guard is, "No, wait." I live in closed guard, I die in closed guard. Either way, I'm good with that, it's home to me.

Ain't fighting a grand thing? Also - all you Jits guys suck, you really do.

 

[drop bear]

Don't grapple of your back if you can avoid it. Especially in self defence where your opportunity to escape is limited.

But if you are on your back you want to be in guard. So you need to know it.

 

[drop bear]

If you are talking closed guard. It is frowned upon should hitting be involved.
A Glossary of Guards Part 1 The Closed Guard

Because it is very easy to get stacked or bashed from there. Which means that if you are in guard you need to be there for a reason. You have some sort of offence in mind and not just waiting.

We take this back to sd and start working with people who do not have a sophisticated guard game. And at that point the rule becomes. Avoid guard and avoid closed guard.

 

[RowdyAz]

Makes sense just stand up and reset. No playing around on the ground if you can avoid it. Alot of the time once under pressure training goes out the window. Mark Hunt said it best " one punch in the face and there goes your black belt " unless people are fighting for real at training it isn't truly pressure tested. Any less is a scenario.

 

[Buka]

If you are talking closed guard. It is frowned upon should hitting be involved.
A Glossary of Guards Part 1 The Closed Guard

Because it is very easy to get stacked or bashed from there. Which means that if you are in guard you need to be there for a reason. You have some sort of offence in mind and not just waiting.

We take this back to sd and start working with people who do not have a sophisticated guard game. And at that point the rule becomes. Avoid guard and avoid closed guard.

Depends on what your game is. Mine is closed guard. If I'm on the ground with you, and I'm not in top position, where I'd much rather be, then I want you in my closed guard. You may very well smoke me, but that's where I want to be. It's where I live.

 

[drop bear]

Depends on what your game is. Mine is closed guard. If I'm on the ground with you, and I'm not in top position, where I'd much rather be, then I want you in my closed guard. You may very well smoke me, but that's where I want to be. It's where I live.

Why. What advantage do you have?

I was the same. And had to change to stand up or don't get put on my back in the first place. Now I can't submit quality bjjers. But I do get standing escapes.

 

[Hanzou]

If you are talking closed guard. It is frowned upon should hitting be involved.
A Glossary of Guards Part 1 The Closed Guard

Because it is very easy to get stacked or bashed from there. Which means that if you are in guard you need to be there for a reason. You have some sort of offence in mind and not just waiting.

We take this back to sd and start working with people who do not have a sophisticated guard game. And at that point the rule becomes. Avoid guard and avoid closed guard.

We're talking about the guard in general, with all of its variations. Btw, Closed guard variations like high guard, rubber guard, and SW guard are designed to deal with stacking and bashing. Some of those variations have been used to great effect in MMA.

 

[drop bear]

We're talking about the guard in general, with all of its variations. Btw, Closed guard variations like high guard, rubber guard, and SW guard are designed to deal with stacking and bashing. Some of those variations have been used to great effect in MMA.

Yes. Then you have another issue for self defence in that you are almost always required to run lean on ideas and shallow in concept.

If it takes 3 different guards to function down there,with all the relevant concepts that surround that. Then you may be better off teaching people to get up.

Which is where we get the stand up,sweep submit concept.

 

[RowdyAz]

Yes. Then you have another issue for self defence in that you are almost always required to run lean on ideas and shallow in concept.

If it takes 3 different guards to function down there,with all the relevant concepts that surround that. Then you may be better off teaching people to get up.

Which is where we get the stand up,sweep submit concept.

I agree,Time spent on the ground is exposing yourself too kicks to the head from a third party. Stand up at first opportunity, less time playing around in guard the better. Good stuff to know but I think time consumed on the ground is time wasted if you have the option to get up.

 

[Buka]

Why. What advantage do you have?

I'd rather be on top, but - I strike from my closed guard well. Learned striking from the closed guard from day one. And I liked it from day one. I don't strike too good from any other bottom position. A short while later I learned a collar choke from closed guard, which I've trained a lot. I'm not really sure of the proper jiu-jitsu name for the particular collar choke I use, but I've had a lot of success with it and have been working it for twenty years. Trained it with every concievable type of clothing an opponent might wear - winter coats, jackets, t-shirts, wife beaters, nice suits, sweatshirts, dress shirts. The only thing I have trouble with if it's a t-shirt with the collar cut off.(the shirt usually gives way) Muscle heads use to wear them but I haven't seen that in years

 

[Hanzou]

Yes. Then you have another issue for self defence in that you are almost always required to run lean on ideas and shallow in concept.

If it takes 3 different guards to function down there,with all the relevant concepts that surround that. Then you may be better off teaching people to get up.

Except that's not how the guard works. In order to do basic submissions like the Kimura, triangle choke, or armbar for example, I have to open my closed guard. Standard punch block defense also requires you to alternate between an open and closed guard.

If someone passes my guard, I may have to switch to half guard in order to stop the advance. If the guy stands up while I'm transitioning in closed guard, and he's not letting me stand up, I need to utilize an open guard in order to get distance in order to stand up, trap him to control him, or sweep him. If he's too much to handle in closed guard and I need more control, I can either use SW guard, Rubber guard, or something else.

You should be active while in guard, and you should be skilled in more than one guard type. You shouldn't just sit in closed guard and hope for the best, and then give up once your guard is passed.

I can see why someone would view the position negatively if they think that you're just supposed to use a single guard per encounter and just sit there.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Situational context determines whether going to the ground is a good idea or a bad idea. Good idea or not, if the fight goes to the ground, I would prefer to be on top. If I do end up on the bottom, I would prefer to immediately escape to my feet or reverse to a top position.

Unfortunately, things don't always go the way we would want them to in a fight. If someone gets on top of you in a fight and you aren't able to immediately escape, then the guard allows you to equalize the situation, protect yourself, and work to set up chokes, joint locks, strikes, reversals, and even escape to your feet.

 

[Crazy Eyes]

If you're worried about self-defense, get a gun. It'll be hard for Joe For That to deal with Mr. 45ACP.

 

[tshadowchaser]

Crazy Eyes
a gun is not the topic of this thread the Guard Position is. Please stay on topic so we can discuss the guard in SD

 

[Hanzou]

Who knew that jumping guard was part of Ninjutsu kata?

 

[Crazy Eyes]

Crazy Eyes
a gun is not the topic of this thread the Guard Position is. Please stay on topic so we can discuss the guard in SD

My apologies. I just saw self-defense in the title and jumped right in.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Who knew that jumping guard was part of Ninjutsu kata?

Believe it or not, I saw that sequence in a (Japanese language) book by Hatsumi decades ago, before there was any significant awareness of BJJ in the US or Japan. As in the video, there's no actual fighting from the guard - just an immediate sweep followed by kicks.

Edit - some googling reveals that the book in question was published in 1964.

 

[Hanzou]

Believe it or not, I saw that sequence in a (Japanese language) book by Hatsumi decades ago, before there was any significant awareness of BJJ in the US or Japan. As in the video, there's no actual fighting from the guard - just an immediate sweep followed by kicks.

Edit - some googling reveals that the book in question was published in 1964.

Considering Hatsumi's Judo background before he "discovered" Ninjutsu, that doesn't surprise me.