The Golden Compass Controversy

[CoryKS]

Personally, I have to wonder - do the arguing parties just believe our minds are that mushy and pliable or are enough minds mushy and pliable that the feel they have a ground to stand on? Is the constant assault on our rights (this one on free thought) deserved?

Ghandi said we're all the same and I agree and I think if anyone never questions anything they believe in they have lost sight of the forest. But in asking hard questions and searching for answers, what I have is stronger and no doubt because of it.

And one of the most important teachings of Christianity comes to mind whenever these arguments come forth: if you have complete faith in God and accept Jesus the Christ as your personal savior, no spiritual harm can befall you. Whatever happened to this tenet? Will we be tempted? Yes. Will be be challenged? Yes. But that is the path ... is it not??

The issue is not as it seems: it is not the movie ... nor the books ... nor the author ... nor the genre ... nor faith ... it is the war for control over the mind.

Now excuse me while I don my collection of theist symbols, my purple cape, my pointed hat, gather my wand, crystals, rosary, incense and library and trek to the nearest porn shop.

With respect, O Scrumptrelescent One, how is this an assault on our rights? According to the article, the religious groups are calling for a boycott by those who agree with their views, which is quite different than forcing the movie to be censored. And as to whether our minds are mushy and pliable, well, how is their position any different than this one?

 

[shesulsa]

With respect, O Scrumptrelescent One, how is this an assault on our rights? According to the article, the religious groups are calling for a boycott by those who agree with their views, which is quite different than forcing the movie to be censored. And as to whether our minds are mushy and pliable, well, how is their position any different than this one?

I'm not following your logic. The thread you referenced is analyzing the effects on young girls viewing a woman who "finally" identified herself as a woman as a result of pole dancing. Young minds are pliable, yes, and more so when the message is very clear: pole dancing is a womanly thing to do. I don't think a young person can watch a movie about a compass, magic and dust and get "religion is bad."

I also wasn't suggesting that woman be censored, nor was I calling for a boycott of pole dancing, poles, Poles, sex, sensuality, nudity nor any other sensual or sexual accoutrement.

Am I missing your point?

 

[MBuzzy]

I don't think a young person can watch a movie about a compass, magic and dust and get "religion is bad."

I think that this is the key point.....this is not an obvious conclusion. You have to KNOW the symbols to get them. The average child - or people that those opposed to the movie are trying to protect - are not going to draw that conclusion from this movie.

 

[Andrew Green]

From the movie there is very little to point to the authority being religious, seems more Soviet style then Church style. But apparently the books are much more clear that the bad guys are the church. (Movie stripped that out to avoid offending people too much)

Which is basically what the Catholic League has been saying, that the movie is the bait and the books are the trap.

 

[FearlessFreep]

From the movie there is very little to point to the authority being religious, seems more Soviet style then Church style. But apparently the books are much more clear that the bad guys are the church. (Movie stripped that out to avoid offending people too much)

Which is basically what the Catholic League has been saying, that the movie is the bait and the books are the trap.

I have heard from those that have read the books that his is the case. Similar to Narnia in that the early books are more fantasy and you don't always see the allegory until you are further into the books and it gets more blatant. With these books my understanding is that the content of the later books is much more obvious in it's stance(s)

 

[Doc_Jude]

I am curious though as why the Christian right has such a hold on America? If the Founding Fathers went to America for religious freedom why does religion play such a part in politics? I could Google I expect but much better to hear views of real people! (without starting a war lol)

As far as Christians in politics, I suppose it's because they're so interested in enforcing their moral agenda that they forgot the most important gift that their god supposedly gave them: FREE WILL. Of course, to them, their free will is most important. They could give a flip about anyone else's.

 

[Doc_Jude]

Lastly, the religious right have strength in this country because of the religious mainstream. Someone else on this board does a much better job explaining how the silence of the middle give platform to the extreme. And, for the most part, most of us will believe in religious freedom, and will tolerate the occassional nut-case (such as William Donohue etc) for two reasons; the First Amendment, and the perrenial opinion that all politicians are the same.

And as for why the nut case religious leaders feel they have power, well, because nobody tells them to sit down and shut up. They can continue with their lies about our nation being founded as a Christian Nation. There is just enough evidence to support that position, provided they ignore other evidence that shows a more complete picture; a Nation created under the guiding principles of The Enlightment.

Great Post!!!

 

[Doc_Jude]

Doc Jude and Omar B
It seems you are definitely not for faith or religion of any sort. I wonder, have you read Richard Dawkins? “The God Delusion” I don’t wholly agree with his premise, but you might enjoy the read.

Yes, it's a pretty good read. I agree.

 

[Doc_Jude]

Actually, I'm going to hold off on seeing this movie until I've heard back from a credible source that it is pretty good. And by "credible source", I mean somebody who hated Eragon with the heat of a thousand suns.

Eragon can take a long walk off a short pier. That redhead, otoh... smokin'!!!

 

[Doc_Jude]

Now excuse me while I don my collection of theist symbols, my purple cape, my pointed hat, gather my wand, crystals, rosary, incense and library and trek to the nearest porn shop.

YEAH! ROCK!!!

 

[thardey]

Personally, I have to wonder - do the arguing parties just believe our minds are that mushy and pliable or are enough minds mushy and pliable that the feel they have a ground to stand on? Is the constant assault on our rights (this one on free thought) deserved?

Ghandi said we're all the same and I agree and I think if anyone never questions anything they believe in they have lost sight of the forest. But in asking hard questions and searching for answers, what I have is stronger and no doubt because of it.

And one of the most important teachings of Christianity comes to mind whenever these arguments come forth: if you have complete faith in God and accept Jesus the Christ as your personal savior, no spiritual harm can befall you. Whatever happened to this tenet? Will we be tempted? Yes. Will be be challenged? Yes. But that is the path ... is it not??

The issue is not as it seems: it is not the movie ... nor the books ... nor the author ... nor the genre ... nor faith ... it is the war for control over the mind.

Now excuse me while I don my collection of theist symbols, my purple cape, my pointed hat, gather my wand, crystals, rosary, incense and library and trek to the nearest porn shop.

I haven't read the books, yet, but my wife just finished the first one and started the second, and she is actually seeing the movie as we speak, with her book club. I trust her judgment on stuff like this, so, there's my experience. We are also both fans of the Narnia series, but were underwhelmed with the movie.

To start with Sheulsa's question about mushy minds, it's a lot easier to lead mushy-minded people in general, so there are many people who have worked hard to keep their followers in that mushy state.

Lo and behold, the movie that they are calling to warn everyone about is a story about how keep their leadership roles by keeping people in a mushy-minded state, and deny them their imagination! Now, I'm not saying that the leaders who are calling for the boycott (not the same a censorship, as was mentioned above) are indeed only able to keep their jobs as leaders by mush-minding their followers, since I don't know them, but, if the shoe fits . . .

Conversely, the people who are mushy-minded may, in fact, be converted, or at least, be unable to lead their own children, because they have been trained to be mushy, and had it called "faith." (It's also easier to be a mushy-minded follower, if one must follow -- less responsibility).

I've worked with some pretty insecure pastors, and they must be extremely worried about this kind of movie -- but the very act of stopping people from watching this movie may make them look more like the villains in the movie!

On the other hand, I know quite a few Christians who are not threatened by this movie, and welcome dialog about it, for something new to discuss! (You just don't hear about them much 'cause they aren't throwing a fit!)

This reminds me of the Matrix. When it first came out, I was in a very protective Christan college. Buzz about the Matrix was everywhere. It was the first R-rated movie that I ever heard openly endorsed by religious people. They drew parallels about how "this world is not our home" and if we have enough faith "we can do anything," taking the "blue pill" is akin to being baptized. Of course, as Bob brought up earlier, Neo sacrifices himself, and is resurrected -- the savior. Etc, etc.

Then the second one came out, and everybody was strangely quiet. Hmm, no sermon illustrations in that one, apparently. See, the Watowski (sp?) brothers are followers of Nietzsche. The Matrix was their way of explaining it. My wife had tried to watch it years before, but couldn't get into it. About a month ago, we read some Nietzsche, (or rather, the cliff-notes version), and then watched the Matrix, and the allegory was plain.

If someone had told the college faculty that the movie was about Nietzsche, (taboo!) and even philosophy in general (also taboo!) they would have called for a boycott, and warned all of us "impressionable students."

I think the same would have happened with the Golden Compass. If Pullman had not said anything about being an Atheist until after the public commotion died down, (barring the use of specific Christian names for God in the third book), would anybody have really cared? Or even, how many pastors would have taken illustrations from the movies to use in their sermons?

(Don't even get me started on the sermon I heard about "I do believe in fairies, I do, I DO!")

 

[kempocat]

I just came back from seeing this movie and I enjoyed it very much
in my opinion it feels like a harry potter movie with a mix of 101 dailmations meets hansel and grettle
.
the makers of this movie should make a donation to the church as I am sure the contaversy they generated was very good for profits

 

[jks9199]

Actually I saw Eragon and did not dislike it but that's because I have pretty interesting taste in movies. By no means it is a good movie, but I did enjoy the time watching it. Within about 10 minutes in something about the plot setup and choice of names made me say "Well, I've see this movie a dozen times on SciFi channel in the last few months". Not that I actually had, but everything was so cliched and by-the-numbers that I knew I had seen a number of movies 'just like it', and quite recently because that was a time not too long ago where SciFi was on a big "B-Movie CG Dragons" kick (they get on those every now and then). So the movie was pretty bad, but in a vein that I tend to enjoy. (But to put it in context, I thought JCVH was hilarious and own a copy of "Future War" so...)

Personally, Eragon seemed both in book and movie (I admit; I have not read the book completely, nor have I watched the entire movie) seemed very derivative. I think if the author hadn't been a kid, it wouldn't have garnered the attention that it did. (For what it's worth -- I felt similarly about The Sword of Shanara by Terry Brooks, too. And that's a series that, in my opinion, has just gone on too long...)

With regard to the topic at hand... I've read the entire series. I didn't see it as anti-religion so much as anti-hierarchial or strict religion. I thought the armored bears and daemons and few other things were great ideas... But I can see where the Catholic League (and others) are coming from. It is the responsibility of parents to be aware of the potential impact on their kids of various works of fiction. I see two ways to respond to them, then. You can try to ban them, hide them, and completely shelter the kids from them. Of course, one of the most avid videogamers I've ever known was a kid whose parents didn't believe in having video games at home... So he played them anywhere else he could... Or... you can let the kids read most anything they want, but discuss it with them, and help them learn to read them with awareness and critical insight. So that when you can't guide them directly -- you've given them the tools to guide themselves.

(By the way... The Catholic League and several similar groups review many books and movies each week; they issue their own ratings and opinions. Many of them just don't get popular press like this.)

 

[CoryKS]

I'm not following your logic. The thread you referenced is analyzing the effects on young girls viewing a woman who "finally" identified herself as a woman as a result of pole dancing. Young minds are pliable, yes, and more so when the message is very clear: pole dancing is a womanly thing to do. I don't think a young person can watch a movie about a compass, magic and dust and get "religion is bad."

I also wasn't suggesting that woman be censored, nor was I calling for a boycott of pole dancing, poles, Poles, sex, sensuality, nudity nor any other sensual or sexual accoutrement.

Am I missing your point?

I guess where I was going with that is that you asked whether our minds were "mushy and pliable". I think we agree that some minds are pliable - generally the young, for whom you were concerned in the thread about the pole-dancing, and also for whom the religious leaders here are expressing concern. And perhaps also the subset of adults who are often brought up (not by you) as an example of "those who can't make good decisions" when the topic turns to things like regulating fast food or privatizing social security.

As far as boycotting goes, that is a common tactic (ab)used to varying degrees of success on every side of the political spectrum. The other day I drove past a group of protestors urging a boycott of Petland because they buy animals from puppy mills. Assuming for a moment that I wanted to buy a dog and I just had to have it from Petland, would their attempted interference with Petland's business be considered an assault on my rights?

My point, and it kinda ties back to my first post on this thread, is that it seems like the people who are upset about the Christians' reaction to this movie are faulting them for their tactics even when many of those would use the same tactics when confronted with something that offends them. If it is, as you say, a war for the control of the mind, then what a majority of the debate becomes is outrage at the enemy for having the audacity to fire back.

 

[CoryKS]

Eragon can take a long walk off a short pier. That redhead, otoh... smokin'!!!

Ok, I'll give you that one. Yes, indeed.

 

[shesulsa]

As far as boycotting goes, that is a common tactic (ab)used to varying degrees of success on every side of the political spectrum. The other day I drove past a group of protestors urging a boycott of Petland because they buy animals from puppy mills. Assuming for a moment that I wanted to buy a dog and I just had to have it from Petland, would their attempted interference with Petland's business be considered an assault on my rights?

But again, we're talking apples, oranges and bananas, I think;

In the pole-dancing thread it was a comment (broadcast at an afternoon hour) regarding behavior associated with the sex trade to identify a person's wholeness in the label of their gender. If it were on at 11:00pm I'd have less problem with it, rather feel sorry for the woman. Could this be damaging to the development of children if they were to view it? Well, my daughter said she wanted to pole dance after having seen that show so she can "feel like a woman." She has the idea, at an age where she feels she should be treated the same as an adult (teenager) that she must display sensuality and sexuality to be a woman. I am fighting that battle from minute to minute. I don't think that show is solely responsible for this, but I think many of the strong sexual imagery and constant use of sex as a weapon in advertising, music and cinema is in part responsible. I tried to keep her away from it - it's virtually impossible, but I still consider it my responsibility to try to point her in healthier ways. Because I'm her parent. A little cooperation would be nice, tho; such as putting stories like that one on the later broadcasts when she's in bed ... and music artists finding something besides sex to sing or rap about.

In the boycott of Petland, this is protest against irresponsible practices in breeding animals for the purpose of the pet trade. The breeding and treatment of animals is a moral one ... again subject to individual opinion. How would a young or otherwise pliable mind be warped by the appropriate and responsible breeding practices or protesting the lack thereof? (sorry, I'm a housewife and my mind is slow on this one).

The Christian Political Machine, however, will step in when it's not necessary to do so and when church- or temple- attending youth are barraged with ideas about sin, godlessness and cultism in film before it ever comes out and they are thus influenced to believe what they are told instead of what they find for themselves, they become the victims of mind-control.

My point, and it kinda ties back to my first post on this thread, is that it seems like the people who are upset about the Christians' reaction to this movie are faulting them for their tactics even when many of those would use the same tactics when confronted with something that offends them. If it is, as you say, a war for the control of the mind, then what a majority of the debate becomes is outrage at the enemy for having the audacity to fire back.

Well, for me, I ask "what do they want?" That seems to tell me what I need to know to either make my decision right there or investigate further.

In our first case, what would a pole-dancing teacher want from telling my daughter, me and everyone else in the Portland Metro area that she "finallyf eels like a woman?" Money! My money, my daughter's money and a belly laff as my fat *** slowly and pathetically slides down that pole.

In the second case, what would the anti-Petco people want? For you to consider the source of your pet and the breeding practices and use your heels to express your conscious. Petco, OTOH, wants ... your money.

In the case of the church, what do you think they want? Anyone? Anyone? DING DING DING!!!! That's right! they want your ... MONEY!!!! Oh, and your mind. Because if they have your mind, they have your money. And if they have both, anyone who likes them will likely have your vote. And if they have that, you don't need your rights to the pursuit of happiness, your right to assemble, your right to privacy (what would a god-fearing up-standing Christian need privacy for, anyway?), your right to a free and appropriate education, your right to vote (trust them, they know what's good for you more than you do anyway - Tellner from Orygun can attest to that), your right to bear arms (God will protect us all and when he's sleeping the military will) ... etcetera.

I'm sorry, but whenever someone marches forward with a cross above their heads ... and it's not down the center aisle towards the alter ... I cringe and clutch my rights defensively ... as should we all.

 

[Live True]

But I can see where the Catholic League (and others) are coming from. It is the responsibility of parents to be aware of the potential impact on their kids of various works of fiction. I see two ways to respond to them, then. You can try to ban them, hide them, and completely shelter the kids from them. Of course, one of the most avid videogamers I've ever known was a kid whose parents didn't believe in having video games at home... So he played them anywhere else he could... Or... you can let the kids read most anything they want, but discuss it with them, and help them learn to read them with awareness and critical insight. So that when you can't guide them directly -- you've given them the tools to guide themselves.

(By the way... The Catholic League and several similar groups review many books and movies each week; they issue their own ratings and opinions. Many of them just don't get popular press like this.)

YES!!! Excellent points...best yet! I, myself, vote for giving kids and adults the tools to make their own decisions....not for the mushy-brained at all!

Don't like it...don't watch it...don't want your kids to see it...then be a parent...let others make thier own choices.

 

[Andrew Green]

I think it all comes down to one thing for me. I'm not Catholic, yet I have seen countless movies telling me Catholicism is "right", yet I've still never thought to be self: "Jesus, I've had this whole God-damn thing wrong from day one!"

So they can suck it up and watch some movies that say its wrong, if there confidence in there beliefs is at all solid, they are no more likely to loose there faith over a movie then I am to find some of my own over a movie.

 

[Kacey]

I think it all comes down to one thing for me. I'm not Catholic, yet I have seen countless movies telling me Catholicism is "right", yet I've still never thought to be self: "Jesus, I've had this whole God-damn thing wrong from day one!"

So they can suck it up and watch some movies that say its wrong, if there confidence in there beliefs is at all solid, they are no more likely to loose there faith over a movie then I am to find some of my own over a movie.

Me too. Countless movies and books have told me why not being Christian - never mind Catholic - is going to condemn me to eternal, fiery Hell... and none of it has taken. I guess the media is just not as strong as it thinks it is, hmm?

 

[Rich Parsons]

http://abcnews.go.com/Entertainment/Story?id=3970783&page=1



Although I have not seen the movie, I'm curious about what other's thoughts are on the subject? Are the makers of this movie somehow in the wrong for producing the movie? Was the writer of the book in the wrong? Does anyone have a right to condemn the movie based on the themes it may or may not present?

I saw the first movie this last week with my niece. It was her idea and her dad approved so I took her.

Nothing in the movie was over the top.

They stated there were multiple universes. Some had Demons which were representatives of the human's soul on the outside of the person. Others had no Demons at all, while others were all Demons and no Humans. They talked about Dust being the source of the Magic. They talked about the Magistrate who were trying to control the people for their best interest and lying to them and even experimenting on them against their wills. The Talking armored Bears had no Demons and there was was Bear who wanted his own Demon who he imagined it would look like a human.

In my first paragraph I stated first movie as it obviously will have a sequel and they left off right after a climax but with "lots of stuff left to settle out".

I saw nothing in the movie that was trying to convince me to do bodily harm to myself or that would corrupt my personal beliefs.

While I support people not going to see something, I wonder if the same was said about "Passion ..." from a different perspective would it not just be as bad a movie as it presents something that not everyone believes in?

I say if you enjoy it watch it. A movie does not have to be a political or religious statement for it to be enjoyable.

To me it was the standard movie plot of the BAD Guys were controlling the world and wanted to change and modify everyone for "Their Safety". And of course there is only one child that can "read" the Golden Compass. The Prophecy as foretold, mentions the child coming forward. It is kind of the standard coming of age and finding oneself type plot line.