The Golden Compass Controversy

[Doc_Jude]

While I mostly agree with you ... there are many things in the movie that aren't quite as clear as in the book (as I understand it, having never read Narnia) ... I think the whole resurrection of the Lion is one seriously strong religious overtone.

He was dead. He came back to life. Made some sort of comment about self-sacrifice. I don't know, to me, that's a pretty big overtone.

Yeah, that was an obvious one for me. I think it would be for anyone aware of any Messiah myth.

For the Record, I read every Narnia book when I was younger & loved 'em all. Great stuff. But if I don't let the Bible, the Koran, the Bhagavad Gita, or any other religious book brainwash me, some fiction written by born-again Christians and born-once-is-enough Athiests isn't gonna get me.

 

[FearlessFreep]

If you're looking for it....not all stories of resurrection are based on the bible. I'm watching Pirates of the Carribbean and Jack Sparrow is brought back to life after sacrificing himself.......ok, maybe a bad example, but you get the point. If the author hadn't stated that the books were based on christianity, not nearly as many people would have drawn that conclusion - in my very humble opinion. Although, I remember the conversation I had after seeing that movie and I said "Aside from the Lion coming back to life, I don't see what the movie had to do with religion."

As for The Golden Compass, I intend to see it this week, so we'll see. Although I intend to go into it pretty objectively....

I didn't see the movie ("The Lion, The Witch...") but I've read the books serval times. The first book , which the movie is from, is not as strong in it's allegory and later works, particularly a few scenes in "Voyage Of tHe Dawn Treader", some of the creation story ("The Magician's Nephew", although like Tolkien's "Silmarilion", the creation mythology is fairly original). But especially some of the wrap up in "The Last Battle". Add this to C.S.Lewis own beliefs and comments you can read some of that allegory back into "The Lion, The Witch..." even if you don't see it on it's own

 

[Bob Hubbard]

It scares them because faith is just belief without evidence. I can have all the faith in the world that Superman exists and treat DC comics as holy text yet it won't make it true. Religion is shaken to the core so easily because like any other fairy tale it does not stand up to logic and scrutiny. They are afraid kids might like Pullman's fiction more than the bible's fiction.

I tried praying to Superman but it didn't work too well. I've switched to WonderWoman. Still no answer but she's easier on the eyes. :rofl:

They can't, actually, since most religions, if not all, simply won't stand up to the most cursory scrutiny. They aren't held together by truth, but by vehement faith and peer pressure.

Religions and political parties share much of the same things, the answering of the unknown and the need to belong being 2. When you're in the "clique" who cares if you're right?

Just watching the commercials makes me want to be a hard core atheist. Just like how Battlefield Earth instantly made me into a Scientologist.

It was a busy year for me.....first I became a Sith, then a Wizard, then a Vampire. Curse these movies and their constant attack on faith.

It never fails to amuse me that those who don't believe in a god are as keen to prove they are right as those who do believe!

It's actually more so the Christians, Muslims and "I aint with thems". Most of the rest of us just wish they'd all shut the **** up and get on with more important things.

Why is it so important to be 'right'? what happened to live and let live? Why must it have to be proved that the Bible is right or wrong? Does it matter? If you don't believe in the Bible why does it worry you that people do and vice versa? I don't see the need to argue over faith, you can have faith in what you want to have faith in or have none at all but please don't attack people just because they don't believe the same as you.

Because we as a people are naturally insecure. We all want to be "right". The right party, the right job, the right art, the right career, the right faith. We're whiny little specs who want to be something that may not be, God. Because we have the mistaken belief that God is always right.

The topic is the film 'The Golden Compass' not the existance of a God as such, it really shouldn't turn into a thread attacking people which is where I fear it may lead.

Very true. Though in some cases I suspect there will be cross over as the attacks on the film come from a verbose subgroup of a particular faith...a subgroup who fears anything outside their narrow norm. I expect most folks will either see the film or not based on if it interests them.

whether you decide to believe in God or not isn't really the issue... it would appear that the biggest slap in the face of the church would be in the timing of the release... why did the studio decide to put out the movie that which has undeniable anti-religious undertones - one that's written by an avowed atheist - unless they desired all this attention drawn to the movie?

When should they have released it? Christmas isn't the only religious holiday this month. 2 other major faiths also have holidays in December, as well as dozens of minor ones.

While I mostly agree with you ... there are many things in the movie that aren't quite as clear as in the book (as I understand it, having never read Narnia) ... I think the whole resurrection of the Lion is one seriously strong religious overtone.

He was dead. He came back to life. Made some sort of comment about self-sacrifice. I don't know, to me, that's a pretty big overtone.

See: Jack Sparrow, Barbossa, Neo, Blade, Obi Wan Kenobi, Elektra, Spock, Superman, dozens of DC and Marvel superheros, etc.

The whole resurrection things a non issue, unless the argument is only Christianity can use it as a plot device.

If you're looking for it....not all stories of resurrection are based on the bible. I'm watching Pirates of the Carribbean and Jack Sparrow is brought back to life after sacrificing himself.......ok, maybe a bad example, but you get the point. If the author hadn't stated that the books were based on christianity, not nearly as many people would have drawn that conclusion - in my very humble opinion. Although, I remember the conversation I had after seeing that movie and I said "Aside from the Lion coming back to life, I don't see what the movie had to do with religion."

As for The Golden Compass, I intend to see it this week, so we'll see. Although I intend to go into it pretty objectively....

True.




My opinion is, screw em. If I feel like seeing the movie, I will, if I don't I won't. I refuse to let some narrow minded religious cowards decide for me. They whined over Harry Potter, they whined over The Davinci Code, now they have got their closed minded brains knotted up over this film. Hell, I've heard they were pissed over The Passion even. (Not enough blood?)

Any film is going to have issues, especially when you go looking for them. So what if it was written by an atheist? In the mjority of these cases, the person doing the kvetching has a-never read or seen it and b-is going off what someone else who has never read/seen it said. Carlin was right. They are afraid of knowledge, that their kids might see a conflicting idea and start thinking for themselves. Heaven Forbid! Anything that might make little Tommy read more is of "Satan".

I won't be seeing the film, because it doesn't interest me. Seemed stupid when I saw the commercials. But if you aren't seeing it because someone told someone who told someone who told you that "Jesus will cry" or some such crap...well, then you're an idiot.

Google it, wiki it, stop in at the library and read the back cover, and make up your own mind. If you don't want your kids seeing it or reading it, well then, be a parent and put your foot down.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Personally, I'd like to see someone make some films of some of Og Mandino's stuff. Now he could write.

 

[Steel Tiger]

My opinion is, screw em. If I feel like seeing the movie, I will, if I don't I won't. I refuse to let some narrow minded religious cowards decide for me. They whined over Harry Potter, they whined over The Davinci Code, now they have got their closed minded brains knotted up over this film. Hell, I've heard they were pissed over The Passion even. (Not enough blood?)

Any film is going to have issues, especially when you go looking for them. So what if it was written by an atheist? In the mjority of these cases, the person doing the kvetching has a-never read or seen it and b-is going off what someone else who has never read/seen it said. Carlin was right. They are afraid of knowledge, that their kids might see a conflicting idea and start thinking for themselves. Heaven Forbid! Anything that might make little Tommy read more is of "Satan".

I won't be seeing the film, because it doesn't interest me. Seemed stupid when I saw the commercials. But if you aren't seeing it because someone told someone who told someone who told you that "Jesus will cry" or some such crap...well, then you're an idiot.

Google it, wiki it, stop in at the library and read the back cover, and make up your own mind. If you don't want your kids seeing it or reading it, well then, be a parent and put your foot down.

Damn Bob, that is serious quality!

Its not films and books like The Golden Compass that people should be worried about. Its things like Divine Secrets of the Ya Ya Sisterhood, or The Jane Austen Book Club. They are bland, mind-shrivelling pap that do not inspire people to think beyond their normal existence. They cater to mediocrity and thay are to be feared for that.

 

[tellner]

There are many sorts of faith. My faith in the Sun coming up tomorrow is based on over ten thousand separate confirmations without a single miss and the firm conclusions of well-tested coherent theory. My faith in my wife is due to repeated evidence. My faith that my martial arts teacher is correct when he says "Do it this way. You don't understand why now, but you will later" is based on sixteen years of him being right.

My religious faith is subjective and personal. I would not expect anyone to share it for exactly those reasons.

My faith in other people's religions is scant. But I accord them exactly the same right to have them that they extend to me.

The religious overtones in the Narnia books and the movie were overwhelming. The whole martyrdom of Aslan was straight out of the Stations of the Cross and every Passion Play that's ever been put on. But it may be easier for me to see that as an outsider. As "Jew scum" - their words, not mine - I had to know the theology and superstitions better than the bastards who beat me up over their belief in it.

 

[Tez3]

The resurrection of gods is an ancient belief that came long before Christianity and long before Judaism so when I read the Narnia books i didn't think of them as Christian even though I knew they were written to be seen as that. I'm not a Christian and reading the Narnia books along with a whole range of other religious books hasn't changed my faith or my views just helped me understand how other people think and felt.
I firmly believe that if you are secure in what your beliefs/faith is there is very little that will shake you out of it.
I probably will wait until a friend of mine copies the film ( yeah I know that's naughty lol) and watch it on a boring night shift as the film hasn't had good reviews, not because of any religious or non religious reasons but purely on the lack of story and the way it's been put together. The acting isn't supposed to be that good either according to the critics in the Sunday papers, we'll see. Whatever though, I shall either enjoy it or not as a story but it certainly won't change my views on life.

I am curious though as why the Christian right has such a hold on America? If the Founding Fathers went to America for religious freedom why does religion play such a part in politics? I could Google I expect but much better to hear views of real people! (without starting a war lol)

 

[michaeledward]

Tez3, it really is kind of sad that the commentary tells us the acting isn't very good; Derek Jacobi, Christopher Lee, the voice of Ian McKellen, Nicole Kidman, Daniel Craig. This is far from a mediocre cast.

Of course, the little girl is the focus .... and I think she doesn't look the part. And, I don't think she can carry a film. That may be why we have talking animals. She looks older than twelve, I thought, through most of the film. And there was one scene in particular when no amount of make up was able to cover the normal skin troubles of youth. Oh, and the other kids aren't any better. I think they were hired because they were cute; not because they could act.

Lastly, the religious right have strength in this country because of the religious mainstream. Someone else on this board does a much better job explaining how the silence of the middle give platform to the extreme. And, for the most part, most of us will believe in religious freedom, and will tolerate the occassional nut-case (such as William Donohue etc) for two reasons; the First Amendment, and the perrenial opinion that all politicians are the same.

And as for why the nut case religious leaders feel they have power, well, because nobody tells them to sit down and shut up. They can continue with their lies about our nation being founded as a Christian Nation. There is just enough evidence to support that position, provided they ignore other evidence that shows a more complete picture; a Nation created under the guiding principles of The Enlightment.

 

[Tez3]

Thanks ME, it's an interesting subject when discussed dispassionately! I must admit I have a fascination with the more bizarre (to me I hasten to add before I upset anyone!) religious practices that seem to come out of America in particular such as snake handling and mass faintings etc. English people would be horrified at making a spectacle of themselves as they see it lol!
What a shame about the film though, I like escapist/fantasy films and with that cast it seemed promising. The 'message' behind films doesn't ever bother me, I want to be entertained.

 

[Omar B]

Crazy relgious things seen in America? How about those people who dance around with snakes! Damn those dudes are nutz!

In any case, fiction is there to inspire, to present life as it could be, maybe as it should be. It's called fiction because it's not a naturalistic look at our world, if I wanted that I would talk to my neighbour instead of sitting on the couch reading Atlas Shrugged for the thousandth time.

Fiction should also ask the important questions. In the case of The Golden Compass it's the questions of indoctrination as a child, the thought police when you are an adult, and only asking the approved questions so you'll get the approved answers.

 

[CoryKS]

I don't really have a dog in this fight, being neither Christian nor of the belief that anybody is actually trying to prevent me from seeing this movie. Convince, perhaps, but not prevent. Big difference.

I'm more interested in the pattern of dialogue that emerges every time something of this nature comes along. Side A opens with, "This [movie|book|other] is going to fill our children's heads with [anti-whateverIbelieve] propaganda!" Then Side B counters with, "It may or may not be propaganda, but it will promote dialogue which is always good thing." Then, a month or so, the object of contention dies a quiet death and Side A releases something that runs contrary to Side B's beliefs and we see just how deep their devotion to "promoting dialogue" really is. Usually not very.

 

[Live True]

First, to the original point of this post/line:
I have to agree with Tellner and Tez3 here, in that I am not trying to change anyone’s beliefs and do not expect anyone to change mine. A movie or a book is simply a tool for entertainment and/or enlightenment. They are not brainwashing tools unless the brain perceiving them is so easily swayed.

While I am concerned about the tone some posters have taken that equates having faith as stupidity…that is their opinion, and they have the right to state it. Just keep in mind, ladies and gents, disagreement doesn’t mean trying to change anyone’s mind. This is a discussion, and open discussion is healthy and good. I will gladly support an opposing position’s right to an opinion, as long as they don’t deny me my right to disagree or belittle my own opinions.

And then to two points where we’ve gotten a bit off topic:
Tez3 did a great job of noting that the resurrection myth is far older than Christianity, so I won’t elaborate except to note that the resurrection myth is almost always based on the “sacrifice for the greater” principle. Whether that is for the “sins of humanity” or to “assure good crops and food for the people”…the idea is the same. Yes, religion does provide comfort to many, but it is also humanity’s attempts to make sense of the world around them and to affect it in some positive (we hope) way.

Doc Jude and Omar B
It seems you are definitely not for faith or religion of any sort. I wonder, have you read Richard Dawkins? “The God Delusion” I don’t wholly agree with his premise, but you might enjoy the read.

Yeah, tell that to the Religious Right that feel justified to affect legislation here in the U.S., forcing the values of their belief system on everyone else. Separation of Church and State, for sure...

I am curious though as why the Christian right has such a hold on America? If the Founding Fathers went to America for religious freedom why does religion play such a part in politics?

Lastly, the religious right have strength in this country because of the religious mainstream. Someone else on this board does a much better job explaining how the silence of the middle give platform to the extreme. And, for the most part, most of us will believe in religious freedom, and will tolerate the occassional nut-case (such as William Donohue etc) for two reasons; the First Amendment, and the perrenial opinion that all politicians are the same.[...]And as for why the nut case religious leaders feel they have power, well, because nobody tells them to sit down and shut up.

Ah….this is an interesting point near and dear to my heart! Sheople (sheep + people = sheople) abound. Tez, ME has it right in stating it is the silence of the majority that allows the fundamentalist to have such power. It is also, sadly, that many folks are eager to complain about the religious right and their power, but don’t use their own voice to vote, contact their politicians, organize political groups, etc. We are a representational democracy, but it is a very small group that see this as a responsibility as well as a right. We have a strong problem with voter apathy and disempowerment (drawn from folks who give it up, more than it being taken away).

Me? I plan to vote, speak up, and voice my opinions…listen to others, and try to have some meaningful conversation….

As to this movie…I love sci fi/fiction/fantasy and was interested in seeing the film…now? Based on the feedback I’m hearing…will probably wait and netflix it. I’m glad it was made…because it means people are talking….at least, hopefully it’s talking and not shouting….

 

[CoryKS]

Actually, I'm going to hold off on seeing this movie until I've heard back from a credible source that it is pretty good. And by "credible source", I mean somebody who hated Eragon with the heat of a thousand suns.

 

[Live True]

Actually, I'm going to hold off on seeing this movie until I've heard back from a credible source that it is pretty good. And by "credible source", I mean somebody who hated Eragon with the heat of a thousand suns.

:roflmao::rofl::bangahead::highfive:

 

[FearlessFreep]

Actually, I'm going to hold off on seeing this movie until I've heard back from a credible source that it is pretty good. And by "credible source", I mean somebody who hated Eragon with the heat of a thousand suns.

Actually I saw Eragon and did not dislike it but that's because I have pretty interesting taste in movies. By no means it is a good movie, but I did enjoy the time watching it. Within about 10 minutes in something about the plot setup and choice of names made me say "Well, I've see this movie a dozen times on SciFi channel in the last few months". Not that I actually had, but everything was so cliched and by-the-numbers that I knew I had seen a number of movies 'just like it', and quite recently because that was a time not too long ago where SciFi was on a big "B-Movie CG Dragons" kick (they get on those every now and then). So the movie was pretty bad, but in a vein that I tend to enjoy. (But to put it in context, I thought JCVH was hilarious and own a copy of "Future War" so...)

 

[Xue Sheng]

Actually, I'm going to hold off on seeing this movie until I've heard back from a credible source that it is pretty good. And by "credible source", I mean somebody who hated Eragon with the heat of a thousand suns.

Well I guess I am not the only one that won't be seeing it then.



If this has been brought up before in this please forgive my intrusion but

How upset do you really think the producers of the “The Golden Compass” are at all the free publicity they have gotten off of this?

 

[FearlessFreep]

How upset do you really think the producers of the “The Golden Compass” are at all the free publicity they have gotten off of this?

Considering how bad it's been at the box-office, I guess they will take what they can get

 

[Tez3]

Well I guess I am not the only one that won't be seeing it then.



If this has been brought up before in this please forgive my intrusion but

How upset do you really think the producers of the “The Golden Compass” are at all the free publicity they have gotten off of this?

To paraphrase someone, I bet they are crying all the way to the bank!

 

[shesulsa]

Personally, I have to wonder - do the arguing parties just believe our minds are that mushy and pliable or are enough minds mushy and pliable that the feel they have a ground to stand on? Is the constant assault on our rights (this one on free thought) deserved?

Ghandi said we're all the same and I agree and I think if anyone never questions anything they believe in they have lost sight of the forest. But in asking hard questions and searching for answers, what I have is stronger and no doubt because of it.

And one of the most important teachings of Christianity comes to mind whenever these arguments come forth: if you have complete faith in God and accept Jesus the Christ as your personal savior, no spiritual harm can befall you. Whatever happened to this tenet? Will we be tempted? Yes. Will be be challenged? Yes. But that is the path ... is it not??

The issue is not as it seems: it is not the movie ... nor the books ... nor the author ... nor the genre ... nor faith ... it is the war for control over the mind.

Now excuse me while I don my collection of theist symbols, my purple cape, my pointed hat, gather my wand, crystals, rosary, incense and library and trek to the nearest porn shop.

 

[Marginal]

Personally, I have to wonder - do the arguing parties just believe our minds are that mushy and pliable or are enough minds mushy and pliable that the feel they have a ground to stand on? Is the constant assault on our rights (this one on free thought) deserved?

Well, theirs are, so they just assume everyone else is the same way.