The first form in your system

[SirKicksAlot]

Kicho Hyung Il-bu.
There is more learned from that form than any other form we learn. It is the basis of the foundation.

I remember Grandmaster Kim Song Ki saying this exact thing.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Oh wow, Seisan as first kata! I would have thought that would come much later as there's quite alot to that one. Had to look it up and it is quite different to our Goju Seisan, but very related to Hangetsu kata. But yes I found that interesting as a first kata in a system

The form/kata most closely associated with seisan in Shaolin white crane is also the first.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Tell me about the first form in your system (if your system has forms). In addition to the form itself, I'd like to know about how it's used.

1. How difficult is the form? Is it a small series of a few basic techniques repeated several times, or is it a long form where every technique or combination is unique? (An image or video would help).
2. How early do students start on it? Is it something students start Day 1, or are their basic movements they learn first before combining it into the form?
3. How long is it before students graduate on to Form 2?
4. In how much detail do beginner students learn the form before moving on to Form 2?
5. What are the benefits of Form 1 for beginner students, and how is it used in their training?
6. Any other comments regarding Form 1 in your system?

In every Taekwondo class I've been a part of, the basic form has been virtually the same. Either called "Kibon 1" or "Tiger 1", it usually follows this basic I-shape pattern for 16 or 20 steps:
View attachment 32503
The first TKD school I was part of had Exercises (mini forms) in addition to Forms. The first 3 exercises were learned before Kibon 1. Exercise 1 had eight techniques: four down blocks and four punches, one of each in each cardinal direction.

In answering my own questions from above:

1. These forms are incredibly easy compared to the others. Although some new folks struggle to remember how many punches in each direction, when to kiyhap, which foot or hand to move when. This is especially true of younger kids (age 4-6) or adults that haven't done any sort of physical education in a long time.
2. Depending on the age group, this may start right away, or it might start midway through the "beginner" program. In the first school I attended, you learned 3 exercises before Kibon 1. In the second school, adults learned Kibon 1 right away, but kids learned Kibon 1 after testing into yellow belt. In the third school, most students learned Tiger 1 at white belt, but in the "Little Tigers" class it was started a few stripes in, and progress through the form broken up over a few more stripes.
3. In every school, it was 2-3 months before you were eligible to test into the next belt. If you knew the steps of the form and could perform them at a basic level without error, you would test for the next belt and then start on the next form.
4. Students needed to understand the basic concept of a front stance (long step, front knee bent, back knee straight), and the basic motion of a down block and punch.
5. I believe the purpose of this form is "how to do forms" more than anything else. It's like the sample questions at the beginning of an online quiz that teach you how to use the features of the testing engine. (Note, we do practice the application of step, block, and punch. We just don't necessarily connect it to Form 1. In the examples where kids do not learn Form 1 until they are a few tests in, they still practice blocks and punches before learning the form.)
6. I think these forms serve the purpose in #5 well. I'm curious how common it is for Form 1 in a system to be this basic, or if it's common outside of TKD (or even outside of the style of TKD I'm familiar with) for Form 1 to be more complex or used in more depth.

The first one I teach is after at least a year of the basic class work. It’s called Yut Chi Kuen. It contains 6 sections with 7 different punches, their associated singles, doubles, triples, then returning punches, elbows, open hand variants. At each end turn are the individual changes of the 2 person Chak form. There are no kicks in this first form but random sweeps are included in the 2 person Chak form after students are fluent. It takes about 16 minutes if we rip through, up to 20 minutes if I’m going slow to teach it to someone new to the form. After that, I teach the Chan Kuen forms 1,2,3. Sarm Bo Jin, etc, etc. I find it pointless to teach forms to people that don’t have the basic mechanics. I don’t show forms in the beginning class unless everyone present has already begun coming to the forms class. I think of the forms as less than 20% of the curriculum, important to be sure, but certainly not the priority. I don’t teach weapons at all, unless people want to go shooting with me.

 

[Thonged warrior]

The first one I teach is after at least a year of the basic class work. It’s called Yut Chi Kuen. It contains 6 sections with 7 different punches, their associated singles, doubles, triples, then returning punches, elbows, open hand variants. At each end turn are the individual changes of the 2 person Chak form. There are no kicks in this first form but random sweeps are included in the 2 person Chak form after students are fluent. It takes about 16 minutes if we rip through, up to 20 minutes if I’m going slow to teach it to someone new to the form. After that, I teach the Chan Kuen forms 1,2,3. Sarm Bo Jin, etc, etc. I find it pointless to teach forms to people that don’t have the basic mechanics. I don’t show forms in the beginning class unless everyone present has already begun coming to the forms class. I think of the forms as less than 20% of the curriculum, important to be sure, but certainly not the priority. I don’t teach weapons at all, unless people want to go shooting with me.

Wow..sounds interesting

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Wow..sounds interesting

Thanks.

 

[_Simon_]

The form/kata most closely associated with seisan in Shaolin white crane is also the first.

Really interesting! I'm currently learning Seisan which in our curriculum is introduced for 2nd dan, and I've seen it placed for 3rd dan in some styles. I guess some styles perhaps don't go the classic easier forms first, but perhaps the more valuable ones first, and to spend more time with them from the get-go?

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Really interesting! I'm currently learning Seisan which in our curriculum is introduced for 2nd dan, and I've seen it placed for 3rd dan in some styles. I guess some styles perhaps don't go the classic easier forms first, but perhaps the more valuable ones first, and to spend more time with them from the get-go?

I have only a very small beginning in Shaolin White crane with Dr Yang due to lack of available training partners so as to make it worth his time. There are some comparative videos on YouTube of this very thing. Shaolin White crane has a clear connection to Okinawan karate. It’s not the same but very similar throughout the form.

 

[isshinryuronin]

Really interesting! I'm currently learning Seisan which in our curriculum is introduced for 2nd dan, and I've seen it placed for 3rd dan in some styles. I guess some styles perhaps don't go the classic easier forms first, but perhaps the more valuable ones first, and to spend more time with them from the get-go?

Our seisan has a large variety of moves/stances and is actually longer than the goju version, but IMO easier to execute. Challenging though for beginners, taking a few months to get it down. We do have "kihon kata" to teach our basics, but they're not kata in the normal sense of the word. (For brand new students in some schools an unofficial short "dojo kata," made up of the most basic moves, is sometimes taught but soon abandoned, not being required past the first promotion nor being part of the system.)

Our kata are older traditional ones, stemming mostly from the late 1700's to late 1800's. This means they were not designed as part of a progressive curriculum going from basic to advance, introducing techniques in a planned manner. This differs from the Shuri pinans (1900-06) or the more recent goju gekisai (1940) which were designed for public school students getting started in the art. IMO, one or two beginner forms is not a bad idea.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Our seisan has a large variety of moves/stances and is actually longer than the goju version, but IMO easier to execute. Challenging though for beginners, taking a few months to get it down. We do have "kihon kata" to teach our basics, but they're not kata in the normal sense of the word. (For brand new students in some schools an unofficial short "dojo kata," made up of the most basic moves, is sometimes taught but soon abandoned, not being required past the first promotion nor being part of the system.)

Our kata are older traditional ones, stemming mostly from the late 1700's to late 1800's. This means they were not designed as part of a progressive curriculum going from basic to advance, introducing techniques in a planned manner. This differs from the Shuri pinans (1900-06) or the more recent goju gekisai (1940) which were designed for public school students getting started in the art. IMO, one or two beginner forms is not a bad idea.

When did Okinawa first get karate? Who was the first Okinawan to teach it?

 

[Prince_Alarming]

I thought your system called the first from Pinan Shodan?

Technically, pinan shodan was at some point the first form you learned, but the order is generally reversed- it's widely felt that the movements in pinan nidan are more fundamental.

 

[isshinryuronin]

When did Okinawa first get karate? Who was the first Okinawan to teach it?

Wow! There are whole books on this. Here is the brief rough version: Little bits and pieces of various Oriental MA filtered in over hundreds of years as Okinawa was a major stop for trade routes, China being the main influencer. These mixed haphazardly with native fighting methods.

The main introduction of semi-organized TMA was by Okinawans who were military attaches and security personnel accompanying trade missions to China. The oldest record of this is of Chatan Yara (b. 1668). There are several katas still practiced named after him (empty hand as well as weapons).

Yara's student taught Sakugawa (b. 1733) who also was taught by the Chinese, Kusanku. Some consider Sakugawa the "Godfather" of karate, but what we'd call Okinawan karate did not yet exist. It would take his son's? or student's? disciple, "Bushi" Matsumura (b. 1800?) a bodyguard to the Okinawan king, to develop what came to be known as toudi (Chinese hand). All these people had some contact with CMA instructors as well.

Matsumura can be considered the "Grandfather" of Okinawan karate. There were still no defined karate styles at this time. His students include Itosu, shorinryu's Kyan and Shotokan's Funakoshi. Also, at this time Higashionna brought back his CMA to teach to goju's Miyagi. And there you have it - the history of karate in 14 lines.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Wow! There are whole books on this. Here is the brief rough version: Little bits and pieces of various Oriental MA filtered in over hundreds of years as Okinawa was a major stop for trade routes, China being the main influencer. These mixed haphazardly with native fighting methods.

The main introduction of semi-organized TMA was by Okinawans who were military attaches and security personnel accompanying trade missions to China. The oldest record of this is of Chatan Yara (b. 1668). There are several katas still practiced named after him (empty hand as well as weapons).

Yara's student taught Sakugawa (b. 1733) who also was taught by the Chinese, Kusanku. Some consider Sakugawa the "Godfather" of karate, but what we'd call Okinawan karate did not yet exist. It would take his son's? or student's? disciple, "Bushi" Matsumura (b. 1800?) a bodyguard to the Okinawan king, to develop what came to be known as toudi (Chinese hand). All these people had some contact with CMA instructors as well.

Matsumura can be considered the "Grandfather" of Okinawan karate. There were still no defined karate styles at this time. His students include Itosu, shorinryu's Kyan and Shotokan's Funakoshi. Also, at this time Higashionna brought back his CMA to teach to goju's Miyagi. And there you have it - the history of karate in 14 lines.

See, I knew I asked the right person. Great synopsis! Thank you!

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Wow! There are whole books on this. Here is the brief rough version: Little bits and pieces of various Oriental MA filtered in over hundreds of years as Okinawa was a major stop for trade routes, China being the main influencer. These mixed haphazardly with native fighting methods.

The main introduction of semi-organized TMA was by Okinawans who were military attaches and security personnel accompanying trade missions to China. The oldest record of this is of Chatan Yara (b. 1668). There are several katas still practiced named after him (empty hand as well as weapons).

Yara's student taught Sakugawa (b. 1733) who also was taught by the Chinese, Kusanku. Some consider Sakugawa the "Godfather" of karate, but what we'd call Okinawan karate did not yet exist. It would take his son's? or student's? disciple, "Bushi" Matsumura (b. 1800?) a bodyguard to the Okinawan king, to develop what came to be known as toudi (Chinese hand). All these people had some contact with CMA instructors as well.

Matsumura can be considered the "Grandfather" of Okinawan karate. There were still no defined karate styles at this time. His students include Itosu, shorinryu's Kyan and Shotokan's Funakoshi. Also, at this time Higashionna brought back his CMA to teach to goju's Miyagi. And there you have it - the history of karate in 14 lines.

I knew some, but not all that. I read Funakoshis book. I am somewhat familiar with Japanese and Chinese history and folklore. I appreciate your answer, thanks again.

 

[windwalker099]

The 1st long fist form is 10 road Tan Tui. It's 10 left and right combo drills that balance both left side and right side.

Mantis has something similar..

In Korea My first mantis teacher "plum flower" had 10 roads, but only taught 8 .
Never understood why he did that.
7* mantis has 14 roads.

In Tibetan White crane, there was something called "Lo Han Six Strengths"
In looking at the sets posted on line, ours was different..

 

[Xue Sheng]

Yang style - long form
Xingyiquan - 5 elements fists
Wing chun - sil lim tao

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Mantis has something similar..

In Korea My first mantis teacher "plum flower" had 10 roads, but only taught 8 .
Never understood why he did that.
7* mantis has 14 roads.

In Tibetan White crane, there was something called "Lo Han Six Strengths"
In looking at the sets posted on line, ours was different..

I must have seen 30 different Sarm Bo Jin forms by now. Not one matches another. Kind of like 7,8,10,12 roads… none look just like anybody else’s.

 

[windwalker099]

I must have seen 30 different Sarm Bo Jin forms by now. Not one matches another. Kind of like 7,8,10,12 roads… none look just like anybody else’s.

Was a member, may still be, of the Chin Woo in Singapore
Used to practice there while working on some semiconductor job sites..
Good place to meet others, the Shifu there were very friendly
allowing me to teach some of my mantis at the time,
in a trade for one of their spear sets.

Their curriculum is pretty consistent..

The 14 roads is consistent among the 7 star branch.
Other branches, different based on different teachers, theories ect...

The mantis out of Korea also consistent in flavor

The 6 strength's, seen it referenced to another videos online. It seems quite different..
was expecting it to be along the same lines...as what I learned long ago..

while some of it interest me for my own reasons,
none of it fits in with my practice now... movement methods not the same.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Was a member, may still be, of the Chin Woo in Singapore
Used to practice there while working on some semiconductor job sites..
Good place to meet others, the Shifu there were very friendly
allowing me to teach some of my mantis at the time,
in a trade for one of their spear sets.

Their curriculum is pretty consistent..

The 14 roads is consistent among the 7 star branch.
Other branches, different based on different teachers, theories ect...

The mantis out of Korea also consistent in flavor

The 6 strength's, seen it referenced to another videos online. It seems quite different..
was expecting it to be along the same lines...as what I learned long ago..

while some of it interest me for my own reasons,
none of it fits in with my practice now... movement methods not the same.

The one from our system is 10 roads. I have seen so many variations that at this point they may as well call it thousand roads. In any case these things are variations of concepts as much as they catalogs for review. I’m lucky in that I still train with 6 of my training brothers from over the last 27 years at least once a week as a group. I don’t have to rely on my memory or interpretations alone. We are close with the Sifu who inherited our Sigungs school, he was a student of Sifu Woo for over 45 years. I feel like whatever changes happened to our forms predate all of us that are living because we have a comparative consensus to keep ourselves consistent within the system.

 

[KenpoMaster805]

The first kata or form that we do is called short form one its the 1st form that you learn when your a white belt in Ameican kenpo karate

in this video my Sifu Jesus will explain how short form one works

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

The first kata or form that we do is called short form one its the 1st form that you learn when your a white belt in Ameican kenpo karate

in this video my Sifu Jesus will explain how short form one works

Was Rick Flores part of your school?