Application first and solo form later

[drop bear]

I strongly dislike some MA training order with solo form first (punch/kick into the thin air) and application later.

Since the virus, I start to teach Miao Diao (2 hands long knife). I start to teach partner drills first. later on, when students link partner drills into sequence, they will get the solo form.

But most MA teachers just jump into solo form without going through the partner drills first. IMO, this kind of teaching is totally in the wrong order.

No matter what MA style that you are teaching, you should always start from partner drills first (similar to this clip).

Your thought?

Sort of sounds reasonable.

I mean Mabye a solo drill as a bit of a warm up or something. But otherwise I think the theory is sound.

And I think the form should cater to the application. So if you are short and say need extra steps. You should do those in the form.

 

[JowGaWolf]

One day I just try to prove my theory (teach solo drill first is not a good idea). I taught this solo drill without explaining the application. None of my students knew what I was doing.

I've never been shown a movement without explanation. Not sure why a teacher would do that.

 

[KenpoMaster805]

It dont matter you can do either way

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I've never been shown a movement without explanation. Not sure why a teacher would do that.

I learned Taiji when I was 7. One day I tried to use my Taiji in fighting against my 3rd grade classmates and failed. Later on I found out my Taiji teacher was a "Taiji for health" person. He didn't even know how to use his Taiji in fighting. He taught me the Taiji form without any application.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

There are two main issues that I find with doing form first without application (vs. them at the same time, or application first). The first is that people will make mistakes without understanding it-if I'm doing a weird arm movement that I don't know is a leg wrap, then I can't visualize what I'm doing, and therefore don't know if I'm getting it correct. The second is that if I know forms a, b, and c, and learned form d but not the application, if something happens to my instructor, or I move, or whatever, that time I spent learning that form is now useless.

An extra issue that I thought of while writing this is that when you go through a form step by step teaching it, you're focusing on all of it so if you teach the application with that, you're likely not going to leave any parts out. If both people know the movements, when you go back and teach the application, you might miss spots. It's kind of like proofreading a story you've read a couple times, vs. one you've never read. If it's a story you haven't read, you notice everything.

 

[Headhunter]

I learned Taiji when I was 7. One day I tried to use my Taiji in fighting against my 3rd grade classmates and failed. Later on I found out my Taiji teacher was a "Taiji for health" person. He didn't even know how to use his Taiji in fighting. He taught me the Taiji form without any application.

Okay well that’s your and your parents fault for signing you up to a class that didn’t do your needs. The instructor did nothing wrong he wasn’t teaching fighting so he taught you correctly for what he was teaching

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I can't visualize what I'm doing,

Here is a good example. Without understanding the application, it's very difficult for a student to understand why he has to turn his head away from his hand.

 

[wab25]

I don't understand why it has to be so binary. You either show them a very complicated movement, with no context or explanation or you show the application with out the form at all. Either way, the deciding factor on how well the students understand, is how well the instructor gives context and explanation to what they are doing.

I took two classes, from the same school on Japanese sword work. I had never used a Katana before. One class put me in paired kata drills, similar to the OPs video. The other class showed me how to stand, how to draw, how to hold and how to cut the air. I couldn't make the drills work at all, because I didn't know how to use the thing in my hand at all. But, I learned a few things cutting the air.

If you put a heavy bag in front of a true beginner and have him hit it as hard as he can, he will most likely hurt is hand, wrist or fingers. If you teach him the proper form first, you should be able to work him onto the bag in a short time, so that he is able to get something from hitting the bag, besides injuries.

In Shotokan Karate, they teach a down block. Its one of the first things taught. The application is simple, its a downward block. The problem here is that the founder of the art, did not teach that motion as a down ward block. He taught it as a throw. Some arts are organized such that a movement could have many applications. If you focus on one application of that movement... people think its the only application of that movement. Then they complain that Shotokan has no throws.

If you want to confuse people, show them complicated movements with no context and no explanation. It will really confuse people. And it will be harder to learn. Give people context, an explanation and a structure to build on and they will learn faster. This has no bearing on how many people are used in any given drill.

My first sensei would always tell us "When you are having problems with your kata, do more waza. When you are having problems with your waza, do more kata." (waza = application) The kata gives you the structure and the theory. The waza shows you how to make it work. When you run into issues, you go back to the kata to find the finer points that you missed. Knowing what it takes to make it work, gives you insight on how to do your kata better.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I don't understand why it has to be so binary.

After a student has done this partner drill 1,000 times, his teacher doesn't have to say anything, the student will understand what he is doing. Action is more important that words. A student can learn by doing only.

From this drill, a student can learn how to borrow his opponent's force to help his sword to spin, and attack back. This "borrow force" principle is difficult to understand by words, but easy to understand by doing.

In other words, sometime words won't have any meaning until you can experience physically. Experience help learning (experience-based learning).

 

[geezer]

After a student has done this partner drill 1,000 times, his teacher doesn't have to say anything, the student will understand what he is doing. Action is more important that words. A student can learn by doing only.

So true, yet they must do the task correctly, or they will only be training bad habits. A friend of mine told me a story of how he had an opportunity to apprentice with a famous Japanese master potter. At one point, he was having difficulty efficiently throwing cylinders to the master's specifications, and so he asked the old man for advice. The master said, "Throw 50 cylinders and you will see."

So my friend went back to the wheel and threw for hours, but still couldn't get it right. He went back over to the master and asked again for help. The master replied, "How many cylinders did you throw?" "At least 35 or 40 with no improvement!" replied my friend. With obvious irritation the master told him, "I told you 50. So now go make 100, and don't bother me again!" According to my friend, somewhere around the 50th or 60th attempt, he figured it out and didn't actually have to do 100 more.

Kung fu is much the same, whether you are talking about a craftsman's skill or the martial arts. Repetition is so important, as is figuring out stuff on your own. That helps it stick. Still, I am also a pottery instructor. Some simple things took me years to get right. If I can share those tips so that my students don't have to do 50 or 100 cylinders wrong before they can start doing them right, I'm not going to hold back knowledge. For one thing, I don't want them to have to unlearn bad habits that can be avoided..

On the other hand, if the student isn't at least willing to put in the reps, giving them knowledge is "casting pearls before swine".

 

[wab25]

After a student has done this partner drill 1,000 times, his teacher doesn't have to say anything, the student will understand what he is doing. Action is more important that words. A student can learn by doing only.

And yet there are many people who do that drill, and don't get it.

If a beginner copied that drill, as shown... they might never get the borrow force principle. That is actually not shown in that drill. They stop, pause and then the one guy restarts. A true beginner may interpret what is shown there, as first block the in coming cut, then start your own cut on an angle. The other guy will be confused why he stays still, after his cut is blocked. He may not know the reason for freezing while the other guys cuts him.

A little explanation and context go a long way towards helping people learn... even here. I bet there are many people that miss the idea of getting off the center line that is also shown in this drill.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

If a beginner copied that drill, as shown... they might never get the borrow force principle. That is actually not shown in that drill. They stop, pause and then the one guy restarts.

In that clip, his opponent didn't attack with full force (I'll try to create a clip with full force attack). This is why the training partner is important.

If his opponent uses full force to attack. That attack will slide off from his sword (since his sword is in a 45 degree downward angle). The moment that his opponent's sword slides off his sword, he can counter attack almost effortless.

Training like this is very difficult to describe by words, but easy to feel by action.

Not saying that talking is not useful. Sometime I just like to have a silent class so everybody can just feel. When students are doing wrong, I will correct them. When students are doing right, I won't say anything. When the class is so quite, that mean everybody are all doing right. I like it that way.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

So true, yet they must do the task correctly, or they will only be training bad habits.

I tried to teach my guy the "knife flower". He always has problem on the last circle rotation. When he did his last circle, his wrist would raise up (instead of staying down). I asked him to just repeat for 100 times. Finally he figured it out by doing.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I learned Taiji when I was 7. One day I tried to use my Taiji in fighting against my 3rd grade classmates and failed. Later on I found out my Taiji teacher was a "Taiji for health" person. He didn't even know how to use his Taiji in fighting. He taught me the Taiji form without any application.

I can understand "Taiji for health" with people like that their focus was never on fighting or using techniques for fighting. As an adult I wouldn't seek out instructors who are like that as our goals don't line up. It's difficult for a 3rd grader to have that control. Teaching the application helps to know what is being done and how the energy / weight should move through the body.

Making a fist and extending your arm forward without purpose is not a punch or anything else. I often see this with kids who are just going through the motion and haven't quite learned the function of a punch even when shown the application. But I don't stop teaching them, as long as they get the movement, then I can eventually get them to the application.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Teaching the application helps to know what is being done and how the energy / weight should move through the body.

Besides the energy flow, most of the combat tools are already in the Taiji form.

Jab - vital punch.
Cross - brush knee.
Hook - striking tiger.
Uppercut - snake extend tone.
Back fist - turn around hammer.
Hammer fist - fetching arm.
Front toe kick - separate leg.
Front heel kick - turn around kick.
Reverse side kick - cross leg.
Outside crescent kick - swing leg like lotus.
Knee strike - hammer under elbow.
Wrist lock - needle at the bottom of the sea.
Elbow lock - defending hand.
Shoulder strike - diagonal fly.
Firemen's carry - slant body down.
...

Can you be a good fighter just by learning Taiji? Of course you can if you know how to use those tools.

 

[JowGaWolf]

After a student has done this partner drill 1,000 times, his teacher doesn't have to say anything, the student will understand what he is doing. Action is more important that words. A student can learn by doing only.

From this drill, a student can learn how to borrow his opponent's force to help his sword to spin, and attack back. This "borrow force" principle is difficult to understand by words, but easy to understand by doing.

In other words, sometime words won't have any meaning until you can experience physically. Experience help learning (experience-based learning).

I could do this drill 5000 times and the only thing I'll learn is how to do this technique in the context of a drill. I've seen this over and over. Where people train kung fu by doing partner drills, only to fail in sparring. I did kung fu shadow boxing once a week for 1 year by myself (no partner) based on the knowledge that I had of sparring. For me and for the students I trained. This solo drilling based on what you know from being attacked during sparring worked better for me and the students who would simply do partner drills.

Partner drills like the one you show are good for visualization to help understand the motion of what you are doing. It won't necessarily help you with the application of it, because the application of it involves movement and attacks that aren't seen here.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I could do this drill 5000 times and the only thing I'll learn is how to do this technique in the context of a drill. I've seen this over and over. Where people train kung fu by doing partner drills, only to fail in sparring. I did kung fu shadow boxing once a week for 1 year by myself (no partner) based on the knowledge that I had of sparring. For me and for the students I trained. This solo drilling based on what you know from being attacked during sparring worked better for me and the students who would simply do partner drills.

Partner drills like the one you show are good for visualization to help understand the motion of what you are doing. It won't necessarily help you with the application of it, because the application of it involves movement and attacks that aren't seen here.

I now train my staff in a similar manner.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I've seen this over and over. Where people train kung fu by doing partner drills, only to fail in sparring.

Both are needed. One for skill developing, one for skill testing.

In

- partner drill, your opponent gives you that opportunity.
- sparring, your opponent won't.