The Evil of Being Wealthy

stevebjj said:
Here's an interesting statistic. We all know that there are people who have an effective tax rate of 0%. But would it surprise you to learn that over 1,500,000 of those people had an adjusted gross income of over $50,000 in 2008?

Another 6 million people with an AGI of over $50k had an effective tax rate of under 5%.

Over 16 million people with an AGI of over $50k had an effective tax rate of between 5 and 10%.

It's not just corporations.
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And if you could, you would. These are mostly legal, and one of the things that probably need to be changed.
 
elder999 said:
And if you could, you would. These are mostly legal, and one of the things that probably need to be changed.
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Absolutely. Not trying to suggest otherwise. In fact, there is a handy spreadsheet on IRS.gov that shows details on the deductions taken by people with AGIs over $200,000 who paid no income tax. The first is the spreadsheet from which I got the stats I mentioned before.

http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-soi/08in11hi.xls
http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-soi/08in03hi.xls

Once again, please don't get me wrong. It is absolutely understandable that people work within the system to make as much as they can, and to avoid paying unnecessary cash to Uncle Sugar. I get it and don't for one minute blame them.

I'm really simply pointing out that when we talk about people who end up netting 0% taxes, you're talking not just about the extreme poor, where it's understandable even if you don't agree. We're also talking about a significant number of people at every income level.

While we might not think it's right that someone who makes $200,000 or more should pay 30%, 40% or 40%, do we believe it's just for this person to pay 0%, or even less than 10%? Can't we all agree that something's up there? At least, that we should take a look? I'm confident that there is middle ground.

Some things I think we all agree on:

1: That everyone should pay their fair share. No free lunches, but nothing that will place undue burden on any household.
2: That the tax code needs to be simplified.
3: That the middle class needs to be supported.

We do a lot of debating on areas where we disagree, but I'd be interested to learn where we all agree. Does anyone disagree with the three points I posted? Can anyone else think of common ground here?

Personally, my tax obligation is much higher than nil. I do what I can to reduce it, but I get nailed for a pretty sizeable chunk of dough each year. I'm not complaining. I'm simply suggesting that everyone pay their fair share.

And I've said enough times, I'm sure you guys are tired of hearing it. Rich people are not victims. It's just not constructive, in my opinion, to move from one extreme to another. They aren't victims. But they aren't villains either.
 
stevebjj said:
While we might not think it's right that someone who makes $200,000 or more should pay 30%, 40% or 40%, do we believe it's just for this person to pay 0%, or even less than 10%? Can't we all agree that something's up there? At least, that we should take a look? I'm confident that there is middle ground.

Some things I think we all agree on:

1: That everyone should pay their fair share. No free lunches, but nothing that will place undue burden on any household.
2: That the tax code needs to be simplified.
3: That the middle class needs to be supported.

We do a lot of debating on areas where we disagree, but I'd be interested to learn where we all agree. Does anyone disagree with the three points I posted? Can anyone else think of common ground here?
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Steve, I've got to respect your patience, but you are trying to talk sense to some people who lack the capacity.

Rich people are not victims...
But they aren't villains either.
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In the main, this is true. But I'd say that in some casese there are those who are villains.
 
Twin Fist said:
9-9-9

it makes more sense every day
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I like it, but it needs a lot of tweaking.

State sales tax in Parts of New York is as high as 8.75% already. Add on 9% to that, and you're looking at nearly 20% sales tax. In Nevada, I think it's right around 8% in Clark county(synonymous with one of my favorite places, Vegas!!) and in your home state, Texas, sales tax rates are much lower, but in some places, the tax placed on the purchase of goods and services would near 20%. That's in addition to the 9% income tax each individual would pay-it's a net increase across the bow of the middle class in some states.

Frankly, I tend to think Rick Perry's proposed flat tax will prove to be a better plan, but neither of them matters: the corporate overlords that hold sway over both parties and all candidates want the majority of the tax burden on the already overburdened middle-class, and there it will remain, until they've achieved their goal........and the middle class is no more.....
 
One of the problems with 9-9-9 id that tthe sales tax 9 will be implemented immediately. The other 2 require a complete ovrhaul of the tax code. Not going to happen in our lifetime.
 
Twin Fist said:
i am middle class, i get a refund every year, i dont feel overburdened
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your not middle class on a nurses salary. the middle class is the doctors you work for. Unless your married to a doctor. If that is the case you don't get a refund.
 
I don't get it. Twin fist, you think a new national sales tax is good and have no problem with the taxes you currently pay? Are you trying liberalism on for size? I think that introducing a national sales tax is a bad idea in general, but disasters us if done prior to abolishing the nome tax. No way I would support both.
 
Twin Fist said:
what i have heard of your hospitals? no thanks
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Really, that's somewhat snarky considring we actually have some of the best in the world and they are FREE, the ambulance that picks you up is free, the paramedics that treat you are fre, the drugs are free, the surgery and the stay in hospital even if you are a visitor we don't charge you for saving your life. No system is perfect but we do a lot better than most. You shouldn't believe everything you read you know but then many people take their opinions from political leaders with agendas, cer tain American politicians will run down UK hospitals because they don't want you to have good free care so if they make us look bad the American public won't want anything similar. Of course when you're perfect, give us a ring why don't you.
 
The evil of being wealthy is not paying your fair share, or not paying at all and not thinking you have too. i.e. Exxon/Mobile, GE etc. What is worse expecting others to pay, and being able to influence government to support that.
 
Tez3 said:
Really, that's somewhat snarky considring we actually have some of the best in the world and they are FREE, the ambulance that picks you up is free, the paramedics that treat you are fre, the drugs are free, the surgery and the stay in hospital even if you are a visitor we don't charge you for saving your life. No system is perfect but we do a lot better than most. You shouldn't believe everything you read you know but then many people take their opinions from political leaders with agendas, cer tain American politicians will run down UK hospitals because they don't want you to have good free care so if they make us look bad the American public won't want anything similar. Of course when you're perfect, give us a ring why don't you.
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Well. Free only in the same way our libraries are free. Free in this context meaning no "out of pocket" expense.

I'm 100% pro-single payer health care. But "free" is a powerful word. :)
 
Empty Hands said:
I thought you said you had no money, which is why you got into nursing school?
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And as a student in nursing school, it's pretty unlikely he's middle class.

But all of that aside, I'm shocked that so many conservatives are in favor of introducing a NEW tax. Seriously, I'm completely confounded.

Here in Washington, we have a very high sales tax along with very high property taxes. And Governor Gregoire pushed very hard for a State Income Tax. Excuse me, but no effing way. Sure, it's only for people who make above a certain amount... NOW. But 3 year from now, the bottom limit for the tax will creep lower... and then a little lower... until it's across the board and everyone's paying just a little. Until it's no longer just a little. It's a lot. Screw that. Better not to start. Is there anyone who disagrees with me on this? Anyone? Liberal or Conservative? I don't think so, but you never know.

It's like an ex-smoker saying he'll take one puff. Or a teenage boy saying he'll only put it in a little. Give me a break.

But because Black Walnut is fatherly, charismatic, black and most importantly, a darling of the tea party, introducing a NEW tax is just great. Best idea ever.
 
stevebjj said:
Well. Free only in the same way our libraries are free. Free in this context meaning no "out of pocket" expense.

I'm 100% pro-single payer health care. But "free" is a powerful word. :)
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I pay with taxes and National Insurance but if you, as a visitor came over, collapsed/were taken ill it would be completely free for you. If we are out of work, an old age pensioner, disabled, a student etc it is totally free for us to use. There is no cost to those at all so yes it is free.
However the amount of taxes and National Insurance I pay no way covers the actual cost of any medical treatment I have had in the past or would need again. I get free prescriptions because of a medical condition I have, I don't have to pay for my drugs. I'm not sure what you mean by 'no out of pocket expenses' though.

We have thousands of hospitals here and you hear of reports from three or four of them and people decide our hospitals are rubbish? It's sheer ignorance to insult our National Health system just to try and score points on the sarcasm scale.
 
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