The Egotist ...

[geezer]

My feeling is that the other instructor missed an opportunity with his attitude. If he really had wanted to share his art, rather than to stroke his own ego and possibly steal students, he would have offered to trade demos. You know, maybe even invite PGsmith and his students into his dojo to demonstrate their art, and also to watch a brief demo of his stuff in return. Heck, he teaches kids, right? And PG does traditional Japanese sword arts. What kid wouldn't love to see that???

But again, it really boils down to attitude. There are plenty of folk in the martial arts who are better off just to avoid.

 

[pgsmith]

There's a good question for the OP. pgsmith, did you get the sense that this guy's intentions are dishonorable? You mentioned that your impressions of his "style" are poor. Did he appear to be disingenuous when he offered to do the seminar?

I think I pretty much let my feelings show in my first post. He seemed almost theatrically magnanimous in offering to hold a seminar for my guys. I felt like he was waiting for the applause after his pronouncement. He seemed quite put out that I didn't react that way too. Of course, it very well could be as Steve said, since I tend to not be able to dissemble all that well and I was pretty bemused by the entire thing. Although I tried not to let the "what the heck?" feelings show, they were there anyway, and thinking about the whole thing still makes me smile. I don't think he even knew how small our group since he asked if we would have enough room.

Hmmm .... re-reading what I just wrote, and I sound pretty egotistical to me.

 

[K-man]

So, how many of you have come across people like this? Folks that aren't really much good at martial arts, but open their own studio and teach whatever they can just so they can be sensei.

The first part of the OP has been addressed but not so much the question posed. In my experience people setting up their own school have to have reasonable proficiency or they will be caught out and shown up time after time. Even then, most setting up a dojo will be under the supervision of another, normally higher graded, individual. So in answer to the question, I have seen a small number of individuals I think shouldn't be running a dojo, but none of them is actually independent. They still can't just teach what they want but what is required by their system.

So, your guy is unique. Kids are bread and butter when it comes to a school. Over here they tend to be a glorified child minding centre. But teaching adults is a different proposition. If your system sucks you won't retain good students. If your system is flawed, the quality of the senior students will display that. That is what makes me think Paul is right in his assessment. Normally you have to train with someone to observe what is happening but in this case it is in public view.

Now if I was in Paul's position, and the guy offered to put on a seminar, I would also politely decline as his system is totally different and seems to be ineffective (subjective I know). If he had demonstrated some cool moves in knife defence or some other transferable skill across the styles it would be different, but what have I to gain from this exposure to his training?

I reckon chrispillertkd got it right when he said it could be a way of bringing you into his fold. And again, you could be right that this is ego driven. Ego can be a good thing, but it can also cloud your view of the world, or in this case, your martial art. :asian:

 

[Aiki Lee]

If you get so wrapped up in only the physical art that youmiss all other aspects that the Martial Arts bring, then this is truly sad. Tome what happened is the possibility of two school owners making a friendly connection,instead become a competition of who is better. Even if you got nothing out ofit but self-satisfaction of what you are teaching and doing is the best, Ireally saw nothing wrong with accepting his offer. It is not like he wasdemanding you to let him do the seminar at that moment in time. You could havesaid something like, "that sounds great, my schedule is quite full rightnow, but when things slow down a bit I will get back to you". Then youcould have set things up on your terms. You may have gotten nothing from it,but you may have gotten something you never expected.

What I see is that you made now made the a situation aboutyou vs. him for no reason.

Sometimes we need to be open and not so closed. Learning ismore than just picking what you want to learn. And when we learn what we don'tintend to learn, we sometimes advance what we want to learn even more.

This is just my take on the situation.

I don't really think pgsmith missed too much here. I don't see how he could have made any real business connection with the guy as a person training in koryu really has no need for any outsider doing a seminar. Koryu, as I understand them, don't care what others do they work on preserving what they view is necessary for the continuation of the ryu. From an ecclectic martial arts perspective it might have been beneficial, but not for someone who studies koryu. Accepting his offer would not have done anything for him except possibly making a friend.
So I view pgsmith's response as completely appropriate, as it's kind of rude to offer yourself to teach seminars for someone else just out of the blue and there would really be no benefit to him if he did accept.

 

[Steve]

I don't really think pgsmith missed too much here. I don't see how he could have made any real business connection with the guy as a person training in koryu really has no need for any outsider doing a seminar. Koryu, as I understand them, don't care what others do they work on preserving what they view is necessary for the continuation of the ryu. From an ecclectic martial arts perspective it might have been beneficial, but not for someone who studies koryu. Accepting his offer would not have done anything for him except possibly making a friend.
So I view pgsmith's response as completely appropriate, as it's kind of rude to offer yourself to teach seminars for someone else just out of the blue and there would really be no benefit to him if he did accept.

That pgsmith (and the rest of us) post on an eclectic martial arts forum is an indication to me that just the bolded part might have been enough.

While I can understand that we might not all be interested in meeting new friends, at the very least, leaving the situation neutral without unnecessary enmity is something to strive for. At least, that's my opinion.

 

[Aiki Lee]

On a similar note, my sensei's wife used to work in a book store and she had a coworker who claimed to be martial arts instructor. Not knowing that my sensei's wife had been training for years, this guy reportedly went on and on about what he could do and insisted she call him "sensei". She chose not to and it seemed to offend him.

I do think there are a large number of people who look to get some sort of teaching authority just so they can say they have authority over someone or something and then want it to be recognized by others. I tend to think that they don't have much faith in themselves when they seek outside sources to validate them.

 

[WC_lun]

It doesn't seem as if the other instructor was interested in an exchange of ideas. He wanted to promote his art in another school and seemed put off that the offer wasn't recieved in the fashion he thought it should be. I must say, if another instructor made me the same offer, especially one that had no idea what I really did, I would be hard pressed to be very polite. It seems very...arrogant. I don't think I would welcome a bussiness contact that couldn't grasp that basic respect thing. That's just me though.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Here's a crazy idea.

Accept his offer, but only as a trade. He does a seminar at your school, you do one at his, on the same terms.

 

[Steve]

It doesn't seem as if the other instructor was interested in an exchange of ideas. He wanted to promote his art in another school and seemed put off that the offer wasn't recieved in the fashion he thought it should be. I must say, if another instructor made me the same offer, especially one that had no idea what I really did, I would be hard pressed to be very polite. It seems very...arrogant. I don't think I would welcome a bussiness contact that couldn't grasp that basic respect thing. That's just me though.

True, but you're basing that on a two paragraph description of one side. Are you guys always so quick to judge? Damn.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Aiki Lee]

Steve, stop making us think about things! How am I supposed to remain narrow minded with you making your rational statements all the time?

 

[seasoned]

On the other side of the coin I was once asked if I would come to a dojang and give a seminar. I politely declined and gave my GM's contact information. He does seminars all the time, they are great! I would feel like a fish out of water trying to give one.

I am secure in my style and my abilities but feel no need to travel hill and dale giving demonstrations.

Going back to OP, yes, that man has an overinflated ego. Sadly even among the very accomplished it's more and more common. To me humility is the mark of self mastery.

In any walk in life this is key. In martial arts we are taught, in time we teach, but, when faced with an ego threat we lose our way, sometimes. This must be held in check everyday, as I saw it written down somewhere, " the meek shall" or something like that. But, I digress...........

Ego isn't necessarily limited to just the school, one can occasionally see it on various discussion boards as well. An instructor gets far too use to being looked up to and not questioned by students, but then feels offended when it doesn't carry over to a discussion board where he/she isn't necessarily the most experienced poster on a particular topic. Some take it to the extreme and then it seems you have an enemy for life.



Very true. One should actively look for ways to improve themselves and learn. And an occasional 'thank you' goes a long way as well. In reference to the OP, after the first time you politely declined the offer, he really shouldn't have pressed you further. That's kinda like forcing himself on you and your students which isn't respectful to you.

Very true, please and thank you, very powerful words that go a long way in achieving much.

 

[seasoned]

I was approached by one of the local martial arts instructors the other day. Here's a little background ... he has a large dojo in a suburban strip mall, and teaches his own school of "traditional martial arts". From what I've seen of it, it is a blend of karate and tai kwan do, with a few aikido throws tossed in for good measure. The times that I've had occassion to see his art, I've been very unimpressed with its efficacy. However, he does a lot of work with kids, and his kids are all happy and eager and try their hardest, which is a good thing. Anyway, I have no real problem with what he is doing, except that it is nothing resembling a real martial art from my perspective. So, he approaches me the other day and says he is willing to give a seminar for my students. I thank him for thinking about us, but politely decline. At this point, he says he understands that there are only a few people in our group (we are at 6 at the moment) so he's willing to waive his normal fees, and accept just having us buy him lunch for it. Again I thank him for thinking of us and for his generous offer, but we really aren't interested. He then starts getting upset and asks if we don't consider his art good enough to train in. I assure him that isn't the case, and try to explain that his art is entirely different from what we are learning, and the two have no bearing on each other. I explain that due to knee and shoulder problems, I couldn't even do half of his art, and again thank him for thinking of us. Now he's getting quite agitated, and saying that I should be showing him more respect. He has many years of experience and I'm being rude, etc, etc ... I let him rant for a while, then excused myself and told him I had to go. He vowed to remember the disrespect I had showed him.

So what's the point? Not sure really. Looking back on it, it still makes me smile. I had to fight to keep the smile off my face while it was happening. It struck me while thinking about it afterward that some people do martial arts just so they can be sensei. A bunch of people now bow to them and look at them with various degrees of awe. These are people who would otherwise not pay any attention to them at all, and it occurs to me that some folks would find that pretty addictive. It also occurs to me that some folks would get upset when someone doesn't treat them in the way they expect to be treated because they are sensei.

So, how many of you have come across people like this? Folks that aren't really much good at martial arts, but open their own studio and teach whatever they can just so they can be sensei.

IMO, people like the above in time get found out and in time diminish. Also true with the ones that are good, "But Humble", as for them there are no limits.
It's the ones that are good and arrogant that are dangerous, to, them self..............

 

[WC_lun]

Steve, I must admitt I am shaded by past experience with similiar men. Men who viewed thier art to be the end all be all and my silly little Wing Chun, or before that, Animal Systems i had trained in to have "a few good techniques." I even had one gent get upset because I would not reccomend that the owner of the school I was teaching in pay the gent $500 for a seminar on what was very bad and untested martial arts. Had another fellow get upset because I would not trade my spear form and fighting drills with his school in exchange for his very bad instruction on Eagle claw kung fu...a system our school taught and his did not. I try to friendly and respectful even to instructors of arts I find total fantasy, but I admitt, I have an issue with those same fellows when they act as if I should give them something because they are who they are. So perhaps you are correct in my case I am a tad judgemental.

 

[Black Belt Jedi]

I haven't experienced anything like that, but my Sensei and others that I know have met or trained with Senseis that are egotistical. I heard a story from my Sensei when he asked one practitioner at a tournament we went to last year on what style he does, he replied by saying he has no idea. So I guess he was being trained by a lousy Sensei who only learned from an assortment of Martial Arts magazines and videos commonly called coffee table Martial Artists.

 

[Mark Lynn]

I don't really think pgsmith missed too much here. I don't see how he could have made any real business connection with the guy as a person training in koryu really has no need for any outsider doing a seminar. Koryu, as I understand them, don't care what others do they work on preserving what they view is necessary for the continuation of the ryu. From an ecclectic martial arts perspective it might have been beneficial, but not for someone who studies koryu. Accepting his offer would not have done anything for him except possibly making a friend.
So I view pgsmith's response as completely appropriate, as it's kind of rude to offer yourself to teach seminars for someone else just out of the blue and there would really be no benefit to him if he did accept.

I believe Himura Kenshin makes a good point here, the arts are completely different with completely different goals, intents, mindsets and outcomes in mind. In the karate/TKD and Aikido school (the school the instructor had) I believe the goal of the instruction might be self defense, since the head instructor blended these arts together. Pgsmith's art is taught along the lines of keeping the art pure, preserved, like a treasure. They really have nothing in common. That the one instructor didn't understand this, or know this, and then gets upset about it shows a lack of respect etc. etc. on his part. If he wanted to be friends or make business connections with pgsmith he should have tried to learn and understand what his (pgsmith's) needs might be, how his art works etc. ect. and offered a seminar that might help meet those needs so it would benefit both parties. It doesn't appear for the OP that he did this or even had any consideration for pgsmith at all other than his believe that pgsmith's students needed his guidance and he was being gracious in offering to fill that void.

All that aside, he does also sound like the guy was somewhat being genuine in trying to help by offering to cut his normal costs/fees and just do it for lunch. Which from his perspective was a pretty good deal, however that doesn't justify his getting offended at pgsmith declining his offer.

 

[Mark Lynn]

Reading the thread there are those who believe that the OP made a mistake by his responses to the instructor, likewise there are those who believe he didn't do anything wrong by his responses to the instructor offering instruction. While I believe whole heartedly in making business connections, and making friends of other instructors, I believe that it can lead to really good benefits for an instructor's students while at the same time it does open up a school (instructor) to some risks. So it is really a two way street.

For instance the martial art association that I belong to is in another city, just far away enough that my students don't get to be involved with it, but close enough for me to drive and take part in functions and training etc. etc. I have tried to reach out to other like minded schools in our area to establish relationships with instructors in hopes that in the future it might open up training opportunities for my students. But it is hard to do this without instructors thinking I'm trying to poach students. I recently reached out to a school and learned that the instructor has also joined our association and is taking kobudo classes under the association's (same classes I attend) guidance. When I heard this during our conversation I offered his students (including the instructor) to attend my Saturday class where I teach my advanced students this material free of charge. I figured this would give my students an opportunity to work with other individuals and hopefully open up some further training opportunities in the future. Anyway both that head instructor and I had similar goals for our schools, similar arts that we teach, very similar beliefs in training etc. etc. but with different head instructors. Hopefully we can establish a mutually beneficial friendship and business relationship.

On the other hand I recently invited a student to spar on a black belt test I was having. This student had trained with me for a while, my students knew this student, he was a black belt under another instructor (and who was now being trained by his father), and he was close to my students same age, he had also sparred with my students a couple of months back. Because of the student's age I extended the invitation through the father. The father wrote me back and expressed to me that he (the dad) expected to sit on my exam board for my students, because he had taken up the responsibility of training his son. Now all I was asking was for if the son wanted to spar on my student's black belt test as a guest, I had the examination board already set and was not extending an invitation for another examiner. I politely begged off.

The first example is what I believe people most often think what we should do, reach out and something positive might come from it. The 2nd example is what can also happen when you reach out, and the person over steps the expressed need (request etc. etc.), which can lead to ill feelings. It is hard in either case,and trying to politely refuse something or to offer something even when their is no ill intention on either side can still lead to misunderstandings. However we are all responsible for how we react to the situation.

 

[WC_lun]

There is no reason to be rude to people, but no reason to accept anything that overall would be worse for your students and the type of training you do. Any instructor is a guardian of the skill we teach and the students that learn them. If something comes along that would be a boon to that training, an instructor must let go of his ego enough to recognize it for what it is and allow the students to benefit. As a guardian though, we must also sort the wheat from the chaffe, making sure that another's ego does not effect our student's training negatively. Sometimes it isn't a question even of good or bad. Sometimes it is just that the skills of two arts are coming from two different places. I'll use a seminar i once did as an example. The school I was doing the seminar in was a tkd school, with some pretty qulified grappling instruction added in. I walk in with my Wing Chun. I start emphsizing even in the warm up drills concepts they do not practice. The students while trying, are having difficulty grasping even what I consider base things. I do realize it is not because of skill but rather the approach of thier training. Through the seminar I adjust some things and the students adjust some things and they get a glimspe of the power of Wing chun, but no true appreciation. While it was great to spend tome with the instructors that ran the school, and they are very awsome people, I did not accomplish much in showing thier students the strength of Wing Chun, much less Chinese martial arts in general. So for many it was a wasted weekend. As a side note, I thought it amusing that the BJJ brown belt/MMA fighter was the one who seemed to pick up the most He understod structure and that was a key component the others had a hard time grasping. Conversely, he gave me a new appreciation for the things he was doing.

 

[Cirdan]

He vowed to remember the disrespect I had showed him.

A rather clear sign of overblown self-importance I`d say. Heard those words myself a time or two, always form the same type.

 

[Instructor]

Steve, I must admitt I am shaded by past experience with similiar men. Men who viewed thier art to be the end all be all and my silly little Wing Chun, or before that, Animal Systems i had trained in to have "a few good techniques." I even had one gent get upset because I would not reccomend that the owner of the school I was teaching in pay the gent $500 for a seminar on what was very bad and untested martial arts. Had another fellow get upset because I would not trade my spear form and fighting drills with his school in exchange for his very bad instruction on Eagle claw kung fu...a system our school taught and his did not. I try to friendly and respectful even to instructors of arts I find total fantasy, but I admitt, I have an issue with those same fellows when they act as if I should give them something because they are who they are. So perhaps you are correct in my case I am a tad judgemental.

I don't study Wing Chun but I am a great admirer. It's as fine an art as any! In fact I look at most arts and I think they are at least interesting if not completely amazing. Wish I had enough lifetimes to learn more.

 

[MJS]

I was approached by one of the local martial arts instructors the other day. Here's a little background ... he has a large dojo in a suburban strip mall, and teaches his own school of "traditional martial arts". From what I've seen of it, it is a blend of karate and tai kwan do, with a few aikido throws tossed in for good measure. The times that I've had occassion to see his art, I've been very unimpressed with its efficacy. However, he does a lot of work with kids, and his kids are all happy and eager and try their hardest, which is a good thing. Anyway, I have no real problem with what he is doing, except that it is nothing resembling a real martial art from my perspective. So, he approaches me the other day and says he is willing to give a seminar for my students. I thank him for thinking about us, but politely decline. At this point, he says he understands that there are only a few people in our group (we are at 6 at the moment) so he's willing to waive his normal fees, and accept just having us buy him lunch for it. Again I thank him for thinking of us and for his generous offer, but we really aren't interested. He then starts getting upset and asks if we don't consider his art good enough to train in. I assure him that isn't the case, and try to explain that his art is entirely different from what we are learning, and the two have no bearing on each other. I explain that due to knee and shoulder problems, I couldn't even do half of his art, and again thank him for thinking of us. Now he's getting quite agitated, and saying that I should be showing him more respect. He has many years of experience and I'm being rude, etc, etc ... I let him rant for a while, then excused myself and told him I had to go. He vowed to remember the disrespect I had showed him.

So what's the point? Not sure really. Looking back on it, it still makes me smile. I had to fight to keep the smile off my face while it was happening. It struck me while thinking about it afterward that some people do martial arts just so they can be sensei. A bunch of people now bow to them and look at them with various degrees of awe. These are people who would otherwise not pay any attention to them at all, and it occurs to me that some folks would find that pretty addictive. It also occurs to me that some folks would get upset when someone doesn't treat them in the way they expect to be treated because they are sensei.

So, how many of you have come across people like this? Folks that aren't really much good at martial arts, but open their own studio and teach whatever they can just so they can be sensei.

Does this guy have any actual training, for any amount of time, in a real art? If so, I have to wonder...why not just teach that art, rather than a hodge podge of stuff, that, from what i gather from your post, doesnt have any real purpose to it? Furthermore, and this has been talked about in other threads, but I often wonder about why people feel the need to take a little of this, a little of that, put it in a bowl, mix, bake at 350 for 1 1/2 and call it 'their own'. LOL. Frankly, I'm not really impressed with folks like that, but hey, whatever floats their boat I guess.

I also give you a ton of credit for being able to remain as calm as you did. After the 2nd time of declining, I may've been tempted to just say, "Sir, do you really want me to be 100% honest with you? Ok, here goes....I think you suck, and I'm not interested in exposing me or my students, to the **** you're teaching!" Yes, I know, I know...the whole respect thing. But IMHO, that goes both ways, and frankly, he wasn't showing any to you. In the end, I think you did the right thing. I doubt you're losing sleep over this..lol.