The Egotist ...

[pgsmith]

I was approached by one of the local martial arts instructors the other day. Here's a little background ... he has a large dojo in a suburban strip mall, and teaches his own school of "traditional martial arts". From what I've seen of it, it is a blend of karate and tai kwan do, with a few aikido throws tossed in for good measure. The times that I've had occassion to see his art, I've been very unimpressed with its efficacy. However, he does a lot of work with kids, and his kids are all happy and eager and try their hardest, which is a good thing. Anyway, I have no real problem with what he is doing, except that it is nothing resembling a real martial art from my perspective. So, he approaches me the other day and says he is willing to give a seminar for my students. I thank him for thinking about us, but politely decline. At this point, he says he understands that there are only a few people in our group (we are at 6 at the moment) so he's willing to waive his normal fees, and accept just having us buy him lunch for it. Again I thank him for thinking of us and for his generous offer, but we really aren't interested. He then starts getting upset and asks if we don't consider his art good enough to train in. I assure him that isn't the case, and try to explain that his art is entirely different from what we are learning, and the two have no bearing on each other. I explain that due to knee and shoulder problems, I couldn't even do half of his art, and again thank him for thinking of us. Now he's getting quite agitated, and saying that I should be showing him more respect. He has many years of experience and I'm being rude, etc, etc ... I let him rant for a while, then excused myself and told him I had to go. He vowed to remember the disrespect I had showed him.

So what's the point? Not sure really. Looking back on it, it still makes me smile. I had to fight to keep the smile off my face while it was happening. It struck me while thinking about it afterward that some people do martial arts just so they can be sensei. A bunch of people now bow to them and look at them with various degrees of awe. These are people who would otherwise not pay any attention to them at all, and it occurs to me that some folks would find that pretty addictive. It also occurs to me that some folks would get upset when someone doesn't treat them in the way they expect to be treated because they are sensei.

So, how many of you have come across people like this? Folks that aren't really much good at martial arts, but open their own studio and teach whatever they can just so they can be sensei.

 

[Grenadier]

If he saw your refusal as a sign of disrespect, then he does have an ego issue. If he really is a sensei, then he should also have respect for other people's decisions. It seems that he does not...

There are many fine martial artists out there who teach different systems, and offer to do clinics, and for most of them, I'm simply not interested in bringing them into the dojo. Keep in mind, that there are a good number of these folks who are also my friends, and even they don't have a problem with my not wanting to take them up on their offers. No harm done.

On the matter of how good he may or may not be, I'd have to see his class in action before making any judgements. Was the class you saw geared more towards adults, or children?

If he works with mostly younger children, then the methods he may be using to get them to learn and show enthusiasm for it are going to be significantly different than the methods used for teaching older children or adults. Such a class may seem like less of a real martial arts class, but there could very well be real progress going on here.

Just as an example, there's a lady named Dawn Barnes, who specializes in teaching children. Her classes, especially for the younger ones, look like they're playing games using various improvised obstacle courses. The kids, of course, have a blast playing the game, but at the same time, there are real Karate techniques being taught to these kids.

I can't argue with her methods, since the bulk of the kids who "graduate" from her place, and move onto dojos that are more for adults, end up being good students at their new schools, for the most part.

 

[Steve]

Some guys do have big egos. I'll say this, and it's just my impression from reading the original post. It sounds like you actually do have little respect for him and his school. Based upon your description of his school and his classes, my impression is that you kind of look down your nose at him and his instruction. As a result, I wouldn't be surprised if the lack of respect you feel manifests in some way in your interaction. In other words, it sounds like you were VERY respectful based upon your description, but I wonder what your tone and body language were saying, while you were being so polite.

I guess ultimately what I'm getting at is that there are always two sides to a story, and while you were certainly not wrong to decline the offer of a "free" seminar, I'd be inclined to give the guy the benefit of the doubt until I met him myself.

 

[WC_lun]

Unfortunately I believe that martial arts draw more than its' fair share of egocentrics and mentaly unbalanced people. Anything that exudes the mystique and power that martial arts do,whether an illusion or not, will draw these type of people like bears to honey. Fortunately, martial arts also draw great people who truly only want to help others. You handled the situation well I think. You were polite even in the face of his hurt feelings and agressiveness. Not always an easy thing to do. Kudos for that.

 

[Cyriacus]

As far as Im concerned, He was in the wrong for not wanting to take 'no' for an answer, and thinking He was offering You some kind of Golden Olive Branch that Youd be foolish to decline. Even if You outright insulted Him, Id still back You.

 

[pgsmith]

On the matter of how good he may or may not be, I'd have to see his class in action before making any judgements. Was the class you saw geared more towards adults, or children?

I've seen both his kids classes as well as his adult classes at various times. He has a store front in his dojo that I've been in a number of times, and I've watched his classes while going to another store that is in the same strip mall. He's great with the kids, they're a lot of fun to watch and seem to get a lot out of it. His abilities with his adult class has shown me that he really shouldn't be teaching. However, it is a large world, and there is plenty of room in it for all sorts. I have always been of the opinion that poor martial arts training is much better than sitting and watching reality TV.

Some guys do have big egos. I'll say this, and it's just my impression from reading the original post. It sounds like you actually do have little respect for him and his school. Based upon your description of his school and his classes, my impression is that you kind of look down your nose at him and his instruction. As a result, I wouldn't be surprised if the lack of respect you feel manifests in some way in your interaction. In other words, it sounds like you were VERY respectful based upon your description, but I wonder what your tone and body language were saying, while you were being so polite.

No biggie, I'm not looking for any kind of validation, just bored at work. I always try to be polite, no matter who I'm talking to. I suppose my body language could very well have conveyed something different, since I firmly believe he can teach me nothing that I'm interested in learning. I'm not sure what you're suggesting that I should have done differently though.

​

 

[Instructor]

On the other side of the coin I was once asked if I would come to a dojang and give a seminar. I politely declined and gave my GM's contact information. He does seminars all the time, they are great! I would feel like a fish out of water trying to give one.

I am secure in my style and my abilities but feel no need to travel hill and dale giving demonstrations.

Going back to OP, yes, that man has an overinflated ego. Sadly even among the very accomplished it's more and more common. To me humility is the mark of self mastery.

 

[oftheherd1]

I know what you think of him. One has to wonder what he thought of you to make the offer in the first place?

EDIT: That isn't against either on of you, but a question out of curiosity.

 

[clfsean]

I know what you think of him. One has to wonder what he thought of you to make the offer in the first place?

EDIT: That isn't against either on of you, but a question out of curiosity.

No that's a good thought. It's what I was thinking. How he must look to himself in the mirror to come up to you & "offer" to teach a seminar at your place. What he must see to have the balls to do that is beyond guesstimate to me.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Ego isn't necessarily limited to just the school, one can occasionally see it one various discussion boards as well. An instructor gets far too use to being looked up to and not questioned by students, but then feels offended when it doesn't carry over to a discussion board where he/she isn't necessarily the most experienced poster on a particular topic. Some take it to the extreme and then it seems you have an enemy for life.

To me humility is the mark of self mastery.

Very true. One should actively look for ways to improve themselves and learn. And an occasional 'thank you' goes a long way as well. In reference to the OP, after the first time you politely declined the offer, he really shouldn't have pressed you further. That's kinda like forcing himself on you and your students which isn't respectful to you.

 

[Steve]

No biggie, I'm not looking for any kind of validation, just bored at work. I always try to be polite, no matter who I'm talking to. I suppose my body language could very well have conveyed something different, since I firmly believe he can teach me nothing that I'm interested in learning. I'm not sure what you're suggesting that I should have done differently though.

​

I don't have any way of knowing what you could have done differently, for sure, but since you posted it on a public forum, I will share my impressions based strictly on what you've written. To be very clear, I am presuming that there are a lot of things I don't/can't know because I wasn't there.

So, with that disclaimer out of the way, there are two sides to every story. While it may very well be that this guy has a bit of an ego problem, it sounds like your ego was getting in the mix, too. You made it very clear in the OP that you don't respect the guy, his school or his style of martial arts. Is it any wonder he got defensive and reacted poorly? Giving him the benefit of the doubt and presuming good intent on his part, how would you react if you went over to someone whom you would consider a colleague. You don't know much about his school, but yours is thriving and you thought you'd be a good neighbor and offer to do what amounts to a free seminar, and got treated as it sounds like you treated him?

Basically, what I'm saying is that it doesn't sound to me like he might not have been the only egotist in the conversation. Polite isn't always friendly or respectful. In fact, polite can be decidedly unfriendly and disrespectful in some cases. For example, around here, on these forums, some folks use the term "sir" only when they clearly don't mean it. It's like the old line, "With all due respect, sir. You are an *******."

So, if you're asking me what you might have done differently, I would suggest focusing on being friendly more than focusing on being polite. I would bet dollars to donuts that had you done this, the conversation would have gone differently, even if it came to the same conclusion (to decline the offer of a seminar).

 

[pgsmith]

I know what you think of him. One has to wonder what he thought of you to make the offer in the first place?

EDIT: That isn't against either on of you, but a question out of curiosity.

That's a pretty good question, since we practice a koryu Japanese sword art and that's pretty much all he knows about me as far as I know.

So, if you're asking me what you might have done differently, I would suggest focusing on being friendly more than focusing on being polite. I would bet dollars to donuts that had you done this, the conversation would have gone differently, even if it came to the same conclusion (to decline the offer of a seminar).

You very well could be right here (sir! ) I just thought it was a bit strange that he got so bent out of shape. However, as Kong Soo Do said in his post, I've seen people get that bent out of shape on various discussion boards also. I'll try to keep your words in mind. Perhaps my own ego is getting a bit out of hand. (Wouldn't be the first time!)​

 

[Steve]

You very well could be right here (sir! ) I just thought it was a bit strange that he got so bent out of shape. However, as Kong Soo Do said in his post, I've seen people get that bent out of shape on various discussion boards also. I'll try to keep your words in mind. Perhaps my own ego is getting a bit out of hand. (Wouldn't be the first time!)​

For what it's worth, I'm no better than anyone else at this. I hope this doesn't come off as any kind of severe criticism. I value plain talk and tend to be honest first and friendly second. It's something I think about a lot when encounters don't go well for me, so I'm probably more sensitive to it than most and likely to notice it where others might not.

I also tend to work under the presumption that there is always something I could have done differently to improve every encounter (online and also in real life). If things go South, while I won't let the other person completely off the hook, I will at the very least look to my own contribution first. I don't ask, "Did I do something wrong?" Rather, I start with, "What could I have done differently?"

In a situation like this, while I can see how you might not want to put a lot of time and energy into the relationship, I don't see any benefit in burning bridges either. In other words, I don't see any down side to being friendly, even if you don't think he has something to offer you.

 

[ATC]

Egos aside, I feel that you missed an opportunity. An opportunityto make an added connection in life. Regardless of the art or proficiency ofthe art, You were offered more than just a seminar. You were offered a businessconnection that you have no idea of what it could have paid for you in thefuture.

If you get so wrapped up in only the physical art that youmiss all other aspects that the Martial Arts bring, then this is truly sad. Tome what happened is the possibility of two school owners making a friendly connection,instead become a competition of who is better. Even if you got nothing out ofit but self-satisfaction of what you are teaching and doing is the best, Ireally saw nothing wrong with accepting his offer. It is not like he wasdemanding you to let him do the seminar at that moment in time. You could havesaid something like, "that sounds great, my schedule is quite full rightnow, but when things slow down a bit I will get back to you". Then youcould have set things up on your terms. You may have gotten nothing from it,but you may have gotten something you never expected.

What I see is that you made now made the a situation aboutyou vs. him for no reason.

Sometimes we need to be open and not so closed. Learning ismore than just picking what you want to learn. And when we learn what we don'tintend to learn, we sometimes advance what we want to learn even more.

This is just my take on the situation.

 

[oftheherd1]

I don't have any way of knowing what you could have done differently, for sure, but since you posted it on a public forum, I will share my impressions based strictly on what you've written. To be very clear, I am presuming that there are a lot of things I don't/can't know because I wasn't there.

So, with that disclaimer out of the way, there are two sides to every story. While it may very well be that this guy has a bit of an ego problem, it sounds like your ego was getting in the mix, too. You made it very clear in the OP that you don't respect the guy, his school or his style of martial arts. Is it any wonder he got defensive and reacted poorly? Giving him the benefit of the doubt and presuming good intent on his part, how would you react if you went over to someone whom you would consider a colleague. You don't know much about his school, but yours is thriving and you thought you'd be a good neighbor and offer to do what amounts to a free seminar, and got treated as it sounds like you treated him?

Basically, what I'm saying is that it doesn't sound to me like he might not have been the only egotist in the conversation. Polite isn't always friendly or respectful. In fact, polite can be decidedly unfriendly and disrespectful in some cases. For example, around here, on these forums, some folks use the term "sir" only when they clearly don't mean it. It's like the old line, "With all due respect, sir. You are an *******."

So, if you're asking me what you might have done differently, I would suggest focusing on being friendly more than focusing on being polite. I would bet dollars to donuts that had you done this, the conversation would have gone differently, even if it came to the same conclusion (to decline the offer of a seminar).

Well, I am kind of surprised at this answer, and some below. Granted it is always best to polite and friendly when you can. Perhaps the OP could have handled it differently. Just like all others, I have no more to go on than what the OP wrote. However, it might be worth considering it from this viewpoint. You are approached by a fellow MA you have never talked to. That means he has never talked to you. He appears unsolicited, and offers to give you a free seminar on his art. That sort of implies that he has something of great worth to you. Since you have never talked he has established no basis for a belief he has something of greater value than you. Maybe if he had said something to the effect of "Let's have a demonstration. We'll show you our art and you show us yours. It should be interesting and maybe our students can learn something they don't know yet? Maybe we can become friends." Of course better if he made an effort to be friendly himself before talking out of the blue about offering a seminar.

So whether or not pgsmith could have handled it differently, certainly the other instructor could have. My own answer of what he must have thought of you doesn't reflect favorably on him.

Or maybe he just has a communications problem.

 

[chinto]

i have seen some people with large ego's, instructors and non instructors both. I find most of those people a bit unsettling. I do not like the people like that who seem to like to intimidate and or pressure people. I make it a policy to try and avoid them.

 

[Steve]

Well, I am kind of surprised at this answer, and some below. Granted it is always best to polite and friendly when you can. Perhaps the OP could have handled it differently. Just like all others, I have no more to go on than what the OP wrote. However, it might be worth considering it from this viewpoint. You are approached by a fellow MA you have never talked to. That means he has never talked to you. He appears unsolicited, and offers to give you a free seminar on his art. That sort of implies that he has something of great worth to you. Since you have never talked he has established no basis for a belief he has something of greater value than you. Maybe if he had said something to the effect of "Let's have a demonstration. We'll show you our art and you show us yours. It should be interesting and maybe our students can learn something they don't know yet? Maybe we can become friends." Of course better if he made an effort to be friendly himself before talking out of the blue about offering a seminar.

So whether or not pgsmith could have handled it differently, certainly the other instructor could have. My own answer of what he must have thought of you doesn't reflect favorably on him.

Or maybe he just has a communications problem.

Ah. I was unclear, then. Let me see if I can clear this up. pgsmith wrote the post. I'm responding to his post. Were pgsmith to write the post about how he runs a pretty successful school and he was trying to help out a guy who treated him poorly, I'd react to that.

I want you to know that I am considering all the viewpoints. pgsmith articulated his perspective very well. I'm playing devil's advocate somewhat, and pointing out that there are always two sides to the story (well, three if you consider what ACTUALLY happened ). I'm not suggesting that the guy is off the hook and pgsmith is in the wrong. Nothing of the sort. If nothing else, based on pgsmith's gracious reaction to my post, I'm pretty sure that he's a decent, level headed guy. But that doesn't mean he can't consider his own contribution to the situation.

Let me put it this way. Here on these boards, we've had some tension lately. Sometimes, I'm in the middle of it. Sometimes, other people are. I can guarantee you that I am not ever intentionally picking a fight. I don't go looking for conflict. But sometimes, I, for whatever reason, unintentionally escalate the situation. In the women's discussion area, I used the term "smacks of jealousy" in a response to a thread. I GROSSLY underestimated how emotionally volatile the thread was at that point. As soon as I used that word, EVERY SINGLE WORD I wrote after that was invisible to the women I had offended. I got blasted in the thread and via PM, and then I got a little defensive and tried to explain myself, used the term again.

I'm a nice guy, but I did step in it that time. But now, in response, I think several of the women in that thread treated me unfairly and have unjustly pigeonholed me as... let's just say something "not good." And chances are, some of those women will never, ever change their minds, and personally, I think that's a real shame. Burned bridges.

So, are they in the wrong? Maybe a little, maybe not. That's a matter of opinion, I guess. But, I can't do anything about that. I can only control myself, my actions and my words. So, coming out of that thread, I have given a lot more thought to what I did and what I can do next time to say what I mean without leaving a destructive emotional wake behind me.

And so, since pgsmith is the one who posted, my inclination is to put it back on him and wonder what HE could have done differently. Neither of us can control the other guy, who isn't even here to post his own version of the story. It may be that pgsmith handled it perfectly. But as he acknowledged, it's possible that he could have handled it better.

And ultimately, as I said before (and ATC really hammered home), there's no sense in burning bridges for no reason. It wouldn't have cost pgsmith anything to be gracious and friendly, even if the guy had nothing overt to offer him at the time. You just never know what good can come of it.

 

[chrispillertkd]

I know what you think of him. One has to wonder what he thought of you to make the offer in the first place?

EDIT: That isn't against either on of you, but a question out of curiosity.

It sounds to me like he was thinking something along the lines of, "Here's an easy way to pick up new students since they'll be so impressed with me they'll want to stop training in their style and come to my school."

Pax,

Chris

 

[Steve]

It sounds to me like he was thinking something along the lines of, "Here's an easy way to pick up new students since they'll be so impressed with me they'll want to stop training in their style and come to my school."

Pax,
Chris

There's a good question for the OP. pgsmith, did you get the sense that this guy's intentions are dishonorable? You mentioned that your impressions of his "style" are poor. Did he appear to be disingenuous when he offered to do the seminar?

 

[chrispillertkd]

I was approached by one of the local martial arts instructors the other day. Here's a little background ... he has a large dojo in a suburban strip mall, and teaches his own school of "traditional martial arts". From what I've seen of it, it is a blend of karate and tai kwan do, with a few aikido throws tossed in for good measure. The times that I've had occassion to see his art, I've been very unimpressed with its efficacy. However, he does a lot of work with kids, and his kids are all happy and eager and try their hardest, which is a good thing. Anyway, I have no real problem with what he is doing, except that it is nothing resembling a real martial art from my perspective. So, he approaches me the other day and says he is willing to give a seminar for my students. I thank him for thinking about us, but politely decline. At this point, he says he understands that there are only a few people in our group (we are at 6 at the moment) so he's willing to waive his normal fees, and accept just having us buy him lunch for it. Again I thank him for thinking of us and for his generous offer, but we really aren't interested. He then starts getting upset and asks if we don't consider his art good enough to train in. I assure him that isn't the case, and try to explain that his art is entirely different from what we are learning, and the two have no bearing on each other. I explain that due to knee and shoulder problems, I couldn't even do half of his art, and again thank him for thinking of us. Now he's getting quite agitated, and saying that I should be showing him more respect. He has many years of experience and I'm being rude, etc, etc ... I let him rant for a while, then excused myself and told him I had to go. He vowed to remember the disrespect I had showed him.

I already posted that it sounds to me like he was looking for a way to pick up new students. But, let us say for the sake of argument, he really believd he was doing you a favor by offering to teach you a seminar. That's great. But if that is the case, it would be courteous on his part to simply say, "You know, if you're ever interested in having me come in to do a seminar for your group let me know. I'd be willing to do it for free (or at a reduced rate, or whatever)." And leave it at that. Better yet, he could have just said something about what his style offers and maybe that you'd find it went well with what you're studying or that it was different enough from what you're studying to make a seminar in it something that would interest you and if you'd like to set something up sometime to let him know. That way there would have been no pressure on either of you to accept if you didn't want to or to risk hurting the otehr person's feeling if you did refuse. Just for the record, from what you wrote I don't think you acted poorly. My point is simply that sometimes, especially in martial arts, circumlocution is an easier way to communicate (for both parties).

So what's the point? Not sure really. Looking back on it, it still makes me smile. I had to fight to keep the smile off my face while it was happening. It struck me while thinking about it afterward that some people do martial arts just so they can be sensei. A bunch of people now bow to them and look at them with various degrees of awe. These are people who would otherwise not pay any attention to them at all, and it occurs to me that some folks would find that pretty addictive. It also occurs to me that some folks would get upset when someone doesn't treat them in the way they expect to be treated because they are sensei.

Yes. Sadly, some people get iritated when people who don't even do martial arts don't give them enough deference. These are people who just don't get it. They talk about rank being meaningless, the importance of humility, etc. and then get mad when someone treats them like ... a normal person. Go figure.

So, how many of you have come across people like this? Folks that aren't really much good at martial arts, but open their own studio and teach whatever they can just so they can be sensei.

Indeed I have and their name is Legion.

Pax,

Chris