The "Effectiveness Question" Again...

[dvcochran]

It is that bruce lee martial arts sounding nonsense that people try on because they think it makes them sound wise.

The groupies eat that kind of thing up. And it avoids any sort of sensible discussion on the subject.

To be fair, that may have been true 20-30 years ago. There will always be 'those people' in every kind of hobby/sport but I don't think that is the norm now-a-days. At least I hope it's not.

 

[Rusty B]

lol if I got attacked and beaten I wouldn't be spending time thinking about who's a better fighter because frankly that's stupid and a waste of time and anyway I'm smart enough not to even be getting in fights. Also just so you know I couldn't care less if some random guy on the Internet with like 3 months training takes me seriously or not

I could have zero days of it, and it would have absolutely nothing to do with me being able to tell that you have an ego problem and the inability to be honest with yourself.

 

[Dirty Dog]

I'm not changing definitions. When I say "trained fighter," I'm referring to someone who has formally trained in a codified style.

It's other people saying experience is training.

Here's the problem with this:

When I was younger, and I used to change the brake pads on my car, I used to miss one important step: I didn't bleed the system of the brake fluid. I merely poured in the brake fluid, and waited over the course of a few days for the brakes to get hard again. Why did I do this? Because I thought that's how it was supposed to be done. By the way, I did it this way before 15 years before I learned the hard way that I was doing it wrong (the brakes won't work AT ALL on a 1997 Chevy Lumina if you don't bleed them).

My point is that is that just because you have experience doing something doesn't mean that you're doing it correctly. Especially if you were not taught the correct way to do it.

It is not necessary to bleed the brakes when changing the pads. If your system is loosing that much fluid, you have other problems other than worn pads. Change the pads, pump the pedal a couple times to compress the piston, and you're done.
So in point of fact, you WERE doing it correctly, and there was something completely different wrong with your car.

 

[drop bear]

To be fair, that may have been true 20-30 years ago. There will always be 'those people' in every kind of hobby/sport but I don't think that is the norm now-a-days. At least I hope it's not.

I was directly relating it to the sorts of comments being made on this thread.

I mean we started this thread with the idea fighting was the equivalent of a coin toss.

 

[drop bear]

and other people cant fix cars no matter who instructs them and for how long.

most things have an immediate feedback loop, if you can't tell your brakes don't work when you drive the car then that's a significant cognitive defect in you, if you concluded your supposed to drive round with no brakes for two weeks while gravity worked it magic, then you have far greater problems to work on. that's not at all failure of people's ability to learn things without formal instruction, that's you not being capable of working a box of matches


fighting like fixing cars has an immediate feedback loop, ''that hurt, won't do that again'' '', that hurt him, do that again''

its also more than possible to pick up good technique by watching others, even watching boxing or mma is showing good technique that you can then develop by trial and error

which is really only a slightly altered version of someone demonstrating a technique in formal training and you going off to practice

formal training has distinked limits, you cant get more out than their natural talent will allow, thats general why talented children become talented adults.

if your putting forward that there are people who have spent years being instructed in martial arts that cant fight their way out of a paper bag, then i agree. if you saying that no one who trains TMA can fight then your very very wrong

nb its very rare , if you do it correctly, that you need to bleed brakes after changing the pads, that didn't need bleeding before hand, it does take a short while to bed the brakes in, perhaps that what confused you. or you were just doing the whole thing wrong

Nah. Historical medical practice is the best example. Where people from experience have some idea of what works and some of what they think works but his plainly rubbish. And that is passed on as fact.

This is also why people think dowsing works.

And this is why we have scientific method to determine fact from anecdote.
.

 

[jobo]

Nah. Historical medical practice is the best example. Where people from experience have some idea of what works and some of what they think works but his plainly rubbish. And that is passed on as fact.

This is also why people think dowsing works.

And this is why we have scientific method to determine fact from anecdote.
.

that's why I mentioned feed back loops, have you ever wondered how the y found out which mushrooms are poisonous? i

that seems an exceptional example of the scientific method, used 8n olden times.

 

[jobo]

It is not necessary to bleed the brakes when changing the pads. If your system is loosing that much fluid, you have other problems other than worn pads. Change the pads, pump the pedal a couple times to compress the piston, and you're done.
So in point of fact, you WERE doing it correctly, and there was something completely different wrong with your car.

people crack t.he bleed nipple to get the pistons back and get air in the system , the trick is to have the world's biggest tyre iron and force them back withthat

 

[Dirty Dog]

people crack t.he bleed nipple to get the pistons back and get air in the system , the trick is to have the world's biggest tyre iron and force them back withthat

All you really need is a C-Clamp to compress the pistons.

 

[jobo]

All you really need is a C-Clamp to compress the pistons.

or a big tyre iron, if you have twin pistons, if you clamp one the other pops out and vice versa for ever, besides which I already own a tyre iron

 

[drop bear]

that's why I mentioned feed back loops, have you ever wondered how the y found out which mushrooms are poisonous? i

that seems an exceptional example of the scientific method, used 8n olden times.

It is not that they didn't get things right it is that they also got things wrong and basically struggled to tell the difference.

Dowsing is still being promoted as viable through the same method people used to detect poisonous mushrooms.

I mean imagine you tried that but had someone who was allergic?

It would throw your method out.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Okay, so... I'm sure this question is going to ruffle some feathers and, I promise you, that's not the intent. All I want is an honest answer.

Why are some insisting that Kimbo Slice is a trained fighter, and that experiences on streets constitutes "training?"

Is it so that we can feel better about ourselves if such a person beats a traditional martial artist in a fight?

They say it because it’s logical.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I'm not changing definitions. When I say "trained fighter," I'm referring to someone who has formally trained in a codified style.

It's other people saying experience is training.

Here's the problem with this:

When I was younger, and I used to change the brake pads on my car, I used to miss one important step: I didn't bleed the system of the brake fluid. I merely poured in the brake fluid, and waited over the course of a few days for the brakes to get hard again. Why did I do this? Because I thought that's how it was supposed to be done. By the way, I did it this way before 15 years before I learned the hard way that I was doing it wrong (the brakes won't work AT ALL on a 1997 Chevy Lumina if you don't bleed them).

My point is that is that just because you have experience doing something doesn't mean that you're doing it correctly. Especially if you were not taught the correct way to do it.

So you’re talking about someone trained in a specific style, rather than just trained. You’re narrowing the definition to exclude some training, to support the narrative you’re trying to get people to agree to by asking questions you think they’ll answer a certain way.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

How would you react if this was medical advice?

If what was medical advice?

 

[drop bear]

If what was medical advice?

If martial arts was medical advice.

If results mattered.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

If martial arts was medical advice.

If results mattered.

I’m not following where this came from. But I’ll play along. Where folks are interested in learning to fight for self defense (as opposed to sport, where some rules eliminate most real risk), it should be approached with a real attempt to test results. Otherwise (folks training for fun and fitness, for instance), that need not apply.

 

[drop bear]

So you’re talking about someone trained in a specific style, rather than just trained. You’re narrowing the definition to exclude some training, to support the narrative you’re trying to get people to agree to by asking questions you think they’ll answer a certain way.

No that is another false accusation.

It doesn't support a narrative. But defines his original question.

Which was basically trained karate guy vs untrained street fighter.

 

[drop bear]

I’m not following where this came from. But I’ll play along. Where folks are interested in learning to fight for self defense (as opposed to sport, where some rules eliminate most real risk), it should be approached with a real attempt to test results. Otherwise (folks training for fun and fitness, for instance), that need not apply.

Would you care if I started giving out cancer cures for money?

 

[dvcochran]

It is not necessary to bleed the brakes when changing the pads. If your system is loosing that much fluid, you have other problems other than worn pads. Change the pads, pump the pedal a couple times to compress the piston, and you're done.
So in point of fact, you WERE doing it correctly, and there was something completely different wrong with your car.

When I read Rusty B's post I figured he/she is one of the countless people to never learn you do Not have take the calipers completely off the car, crack the lines to change the pads. A decent C-clamp and one of the old pads to push the pistons back usually does it. If that doesn't work your calipers have frozen up and have to be rebuilt/replaced.
Kind of reminds me of the definition of insanity where a person does the same thing over and over expecting different results.

 

[dvcochran]

people crack t.he bleed nipple to get the pistons back and get air in the system , the trick is to have the world's biggest tyre iron and force them back withthat

So you’re talking about someone trained in a specific style, rather than just trained. You’re narrowing the definition to exclude some training, to support the narrative you’re trying to get people to agree to by asking questions you think they’ll answer a certain way.

I think he means 'formally' trained (regardless of style(s)) but for some reason has not presented the question that way. Just keep running in circles.

 

[Dirty Dog]

or a big tyre iron, if you have twin pistons, if you clamp one the other pops out and vice versa for ever, besides which I already own a tyre iron

I use a C-Clamp on the Vette, which has 4-piston calipers. Just lay a strip of metal across the pistons and compress them all at the same time.