The "Effectiveness Question" Again...

[dvcochran]

Thank you for the explanation, there's quite a few non Americans on this site so slang terms aren't such a good idea, confuses the issue.

I've seen a lot of fights between random strangers, perhaps you have even been down Union Street in Plymouth ( Raleigh and Drake's home port) lol, civilians like to take on the Royal Marines. Where I am the local civvies like to take on the squaddies, sometimes the squaddies take on other squaddies if they are different regiments or corps. I've had the pleasure of breaking up a few of them.

When people say 'street fight' to me it sounds pretentious, people trying to make out they are something they aren't. Besides, Street is a very nice town in the south west of the UK, they rarely have fights.

Street fight, bar room brawl, back alley match; I hope we can all agree the OP intended the same meaning.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

LOL, you're clearly ignorant of what's going with most of these guys.

As an FYI, I lived the first nine years of my life in public housing, and lived in neighborhoods where the majority received some form of public assistance until I joined the Navy at the age of 20.

I can tell you for a fact that the majority of the dudes who are known to have "got dem hands" aren't training at boxing gym or any other formal setting for that matter.

Again, check out the show bully beatdown. Plenty of the guys in that show were involved in streetfights/the local badasses.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

It is a clever but dishonest strategy to market a product.

Sigh. I don't think anyone in this thread is marketing anything, DB. They're using a term that's actually pretty common (even fairly common outside the groups marketing or being marketed to).

 

[drop bear]

Sigh. I don't think anyone in this thread is marketing anything, DB. They're using a term that's actually pretty common (even fairly common outside the groups marketing or being marketed to).

It is that bruce lee martial arts sounding nonsense that people try on because they think it makes them sound wise.

The groupies eat that kind of thing up. And it avoids any sort of sensible discussion on the subject.

 

[Tez3]

Street fight, bar room brawl, back alley match; I hope we can all agree the OP intended the same meaning.

Actually I wasn't talking about the OP rather I was making a general comment about the use of the expression, street fights/ers by people who think they are hard.

 

[drop bear]

Again, check out the show bully beatdown. Plenty of the guys in that show were involved in streetfights/the local badasses.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

It is that bruce lee martial arts sounding nonsense that people try on because they think it makes them sound wise.

The groupies eat that kind of thing up. And it avoids any sort of sensible discussion on the subject.

You often make these kind of purposely inflammatory claims, painting entire groups with a negative brush, without evidence it’s true of all of them (or even the majority). You must have had a very bad experience to carry this stereotype so far.

 

[punisher73]

Ugggh....

Too many unknown factors. If someone is known for "having hands" because they have a lot of experience in fighting, then they are trained. What did people do before "styles" happened? They got into fights and if they did something that worked, they trained it and kept adding on to it until finally people got together and formally taught it as a "style". But, that is different than "formal training" under a coach or teacher in a gym setting.

Kimbo Slice was a trained fighter PERIOD. Now, if you want to make the argument that he didn't have any "formal training" in a school before his MMA career that's different. Kimbo was also a bouncer and bodyguard before he started underground fighting. So, he was not untrained by any means.

The mythical "streetfight", which I will define as something outside of a sporting competition in which only one person wants to fight. 90% is awareness of your surroundings and not going to places where a lot of fights happen. The next most important part is setting your ego aside and learning to talk to de-escalate. Unless, added to their curriculum, most martial arts don't have that. The actual physical skills play only a small percentage in keeping you safe.

Most of the videos floating around that point to fights looking like MMA/boxing matches are two guys who have their ego wrapped up in the situation and are both consenting to the fight, which is why they are squaring up and posturing and have a "ring distance" before they start.

So, back to the original question. Who wins? Depends on how savvy each person is. The "street brawler" probably has tons of experience at running his mouth and getting into range to use his sucker punch. A trained tournament fighter who isn't used to that may not understand the signs and understand that he is already in a fight before the first punch is thrown is going to lose. But, if the trained "karate guy" has also trained aspects of street/crime awareness and pre-fight indicators, and when he sees the other guy attempting to close the distance and keeps back then it is a different story. There is a reason that in assaults usually the first person who strikes is the winner.

 

[Rusty B]

Okay, so... I'm sure this question is going to ruffle some feathers and, I promise you, that's not the intent. All I want is an honest answer.

Why are some insisting that Kimbo Slice is a trained fighter, and that experiences on streets constitutes "training?"

Is it so that we can feel better about ourselves if such a person beats a traditional martial artist in a fight?

 

[jobo]

Okay, so... I'm sure this question is going to ruffle some feathers and, I promise you, that's not the intent. All I want is an honest answer.

Why are some insisting that Kimbo Slice is a trained fighter, and that experiences on streets constitutes "training?"

Is it so that we can feel better about ourselves if such a person beats a traditional martial artist in a fight?

because you keep changing definitions, a trained fighter is one who trains to fight. the best training for fights is,,,, fighting

there are some very dangerous people walking around, who have never had any formal instruction, some people are intuitively good at fighting, like some are intuitively good at soccer or chess

no amount of training can make up for a deficit of natural talent or indeed old age.

there's an awful lot of ''untrained fighters'' who can beat me up, i suspect, though quite possibly far fewer than if i didn't train

that said ive seen quite a few hard men walk off the street with inflated egos and biceps and get taken down a peg or two, by someone two third of their size, but none of them was kimbo, so we are no nearer a solution

 

[Rusty B]

because you keep changing definitions, a trained fighter is one who trains to fight. the best training for fights is,,,, fighting

I'm not changing definitions. When I say "trained fighter," I'm referring to someone who has formally trained in a codified style.

It's other people saying experience is training.

Here's the problem with this:

When I was younger, and I used to change the brake pads on my car, I used to miss one important step: I didn't bleed the system of the brake fluid. I merely poured in the brake fluid, and waited over the course of a few days for the brakes to get hard again. Why did I do this? Because I thought that's how it was supposed to be done. By the way, I did it this way before 15 years before I learned the hard way that I was doing it wrong (the brakes won't work AT ALL on a 1997 Chevy Lumina if you don't bleed them).

My point is that is that just because you have experience doing something doesn't mean that you're doing it correctly. Especially if you were not taught the correct way to do it.

 

[jobo]

I'm not changing definitions. When I say "training fighter," I'm referring to someone who has formally trained in a codified style.

It's other people saying experience is training.

Here's the problem with this:

When I was younger, and I used to change the brake pads on my car, I used to miss one important step: I didn't bleed the system of the brake fluid. I merely poured in the brake fluid, and waited over the course of a few days for the brakes to get hard again. Why did I do this? Because I thought that's how it was supposed to be done. By the way, I did it this way before 15 years before I learned the hard way that I was doing it wrong (the brakes won't work AT ALL on a 1997 Chevy Lumina if you don't bleed them).

My point is that is that just because you have experience doing something doesn't mean that you're doing it correctly. Especially if you were not taught the correct way to do it.

and other people cant fix cars no matter who instructs them and for how long.

most things have an immediate feedback loop, if you can't tell your brakes don't work when you drive the car then that's a significant cognitive defect in you, if you concluded your supposed to drive round with no brakes for two weeks while gravity worked it magic, then you have far greater problems to work on. that's not at all failure of people's ability to learn things without formal instruction, that's you not being capable of working a box of matches


fighting like fixing cars has an immediate feedback loop, ''that hurt, won't do that again'' '', that hurt him, do that again''

its also more than possible to pick up good technique by watching others, even watching boxing or mma is showing good technique that you can then develop by trial and error

which is really only a slightly altered version of someone demonstrating a technique in formal training and you going off to practice

formal training has distinked limits, you cant get more out than their natural talent will allow, thats general why talented children become talented adults.

if your putting forward that there are people who have spent years being instructed in martial arts that cant fight their way out of a paper bag, then i agree. if you saying that no one who trains TMA can fight then your very very wrong

nb its very rare , if you do it correctly, that you need to bleed brakes after changing the pads, that didn't need bleeding before hand, it does take a short while to bed the brakes in, perhaps that what confused you. or you were just doing the whole thing wrong

 

[drop bear]

You often make these kind of purposely inflammatory claims, painting entire groups with a negative brush, without evidence it’s true of all of them (or even the majority). You must have had a very bad experience to carry this stereotype so far.

How would you react if this was medical advice?

 

[Headhunter]

Okay, so... I'm sure this question is going to ruffle some feathers and, I promise you, that's not the intent. All I want is an honest answer.

Why are some insisting that Kimbo Slice is a trained fighter, and that experiences on streets constitutes "training?"

Is it so that we can feel better about ourselves if such a person beats a traditional martial artist in a fight?

No.....it's because he was trained,,..as was said before he was trained by former heavyweight champion bas rutten and former light heavyweight champion rampage Jackson. Then he moved to American top team which is one of the top Mma gyms in the world....hence....trained fighter. I don't need to feel better about myself I know 100% I could get beaten by someone with no training. If they come up behind me and punch me or just walk up when I'm not aware they could hit me and they could knock me out of course it can happen it's dumb for anyone to say it couldn't

 

[Headhunter]

I'm not changing definitions. When I say "trained fighter," I'm referring to someone who has formally trained in a codified style.

It's other people saying experience is training.

Here's the problem with this:

When I was younger, and I used to change the brake pads on my car, I used to miss one important step: I didn't bleed the system of the brake fluid. I merely poured in the brake fluid, and waited over the course of a few days for the brakes to get hard again. Why did I do this? Because I thought that's how it was supposed to be done. By the way, I did it this way before 15 years before I learned the hard way that I was doing it wrong (the brakes won't work AT ALL on a 1997 Chevy Lumina if you don't bleed them).

My point is that is that just because you have experience doing something doesn't mean that you're doing it correctly. Especially if you were not taught the correct way to do it.

Fixing a car isn't fighting.....the way to know your doing fighting correctly is by winning fights so if you win fights then it doesn't matter how you win them as long as you win

 

[Rusty B]

No.....it's because he was trained,,..as was said before he was trained by former heavyweight champion bas rutten and former light heavyweight champion rampage Jackson. Then he moved to American top team which is one of the top Mma gyms in the world....hence....trained fighter.

I've already addressed this earlier, and you're repeating it. Now you're just wasting everyone's time, including your own.

I don't need to feel better about myself I know 100% I could get beaten by someone with no training. If they come up behind me and punch me or just walk up when I'm not aware they could hit me and they could knock me out of course it can happen it's dumb for anyone to say it couldn't

If you would have stopped at the first sentence in this quote, you'd be taken seriously. But when you add the second... what you're really saying is that you won't think lesser of yourself, as long as you have an excuse. As long as you don't have to come to terms with the fact that the untrained guy was the better fighter.

 

[Rusty B]

Fixing a car isn't fighting.....the way to know your doing fighting correctly is by winning fights so if you win fights then it doesn't matter how you win them as long as you win

Only in real life, there are no ten counts or pinfalls. More often then not, who "won" will be determined by the people who saw it - and are usually biased.

 

[dvcochran]

I'm not changing definitions. When I say "trained fighter," I'm referring to someone who has formally trained in a codified style.

It's other people saying experience is training.

Here's the problem with this:

When I was younger, and I used to change the brake pads on my car, I used to miss one important step: I didn't bleed the system of the brake fluid. I merely poured in the brake fluid, and waited over the course of a few days for the brakes to get hard again. Why did I do this? Because I thought that's how it was supposed to be done. By the way, I did it this way before 15 years before I learned the hard way that I was doing it wrong (the brakes won't work AT ALL on a 1997 Chevy Lumina if you don't bleed them).

My point is that is that just because you have experience doing something doesn't mean that you're doing it correctly. Especially if you were not taught the correct way to do it.

There is absolutely zero reason to open up the hydraulic (fluid)system when changing brake pads.

 

[dvcochran]

Fixing a car isn't fighting.....the way to know your doing fighting correctly is by winning fights so if you win fights then it doesn't matter how you win them as long as you win

In the context that the car not having brakes after working on it causes you to crash the car, you could argue that this is analogous to getting punched by an opponent.

 

[Headhunter]

I've already addressed this earlier, and you're repeating it. Now you're just wasting everyone's time, including your own.



If you would have stopped at the first sentence in this quote, you'd be taken seriously. But when you add the second... what you're really saying is that you won't think lesser of yourself, as long as you have an excuse. As long as you don't have to come to terms with the fact that the untrained guy was the better fighter.

lol if I got attacked and beaten I wouldn't be spending time thinking about who's a better fighter because frankly that's stupid and a waste of time and anyway I'm smart enough not to even be getting in fights. Also just so you know I couldn't care less if some random guy on the Internet with like 3 months training takes me seriously or not