The definition of a McDojo!!
- Thread starter AMP-RYU
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Gordon Nore
Senior Master
bob,
Did you change your name? I don't know that you have to go into witness protection or anything. It's just a thread.
The problem is that if a school tries to make money it is called a McDojo. Even if the instuctors have the right intentions. In these trying times many people are just not willing to pay for good training without entisement. Instructors have added belts to gain money in promotions, gave promotions that were not deserved and done whatever it takes to stay alive. The problem is that there are just not enough people willing to see the advantages of a good instuctor without paying. My instructor refuses to take my money because he doesn't want to be seen this way. While I admire his ethics, he needs to feed himself and his family and keep the heat on without feeling obligated.
It's a catch 22. Your damed if you do and bankrupt if you don't.
It's a catch 22. Your damed if you do and bankrupt if you don't.
OP
AMP-RYU
Black Belt
- Thread Starter
- #124
bob,
Did you change your name? I don't know that you have to go into witness protection or anything. It's just a thread.
I changed my name because no matter what I say their are a couple of people on here not saying who that dogg my threads...I just post a thread to get input not chopped down. So I would rather not have one of my students one day find this site and see their instructors geting ripped on. i think i have good points and dont need someone talking smack on me in a public forum. post your thoughts but dont talk smack on the poster, that is my feeling!
I changed my name because no matter what I say their are a couple of people on here not saying who that dogg my threads...I just post a thread to get input not chopped down. So I would rather not have one of my students one day find this site and see their instructors geting ripped on. i think i have good points and dont need someone talking smack on me in a public forum. post your thoughts but dont talk smack on the poster, that is my feeling!
Many people find great courage when the have ananimity or distance between you and them. Few have the courage to challenge with there own name and place displayed. The internet like familiarilty breads contempt.
Dao
Green Belt
I do not like gossip however I think as a Korean, this art is part of my culture. i don't like what I am seeing. My school was kind of like this, even though I wasn't ready for my blue belt test I was told to take it. Why? Because of the large fee to take the test. I was forced to quit.\
No instructor is forced to teach taekwondo for a living, in fact many work during the day and teach in the evenings and weekends.
If this happened in Korea there would be a lot of angry people and the instructor would have a bad name very quickly. This is just lack a respect to give black belts so easily.
What we should be doing is recommend the good schools or what you consider as the good school for learning. You don't have to tell them the reason. This is the best way, hopefully the bad ones will go away. You might call this mean and wrong but I don't see like that. If they want to make money they can charge outrageous monthly class fees. There is no excuse to give black belt when it's not earned.
Anyways tournaments will show the good schools from the bad ones. Just like my first school we hardly won any trophies or any medals, sure there was some medals and trophies in the school but that was mostly to the real top notch students that just luckly trained harder.
No instructor is forced to teach taekwondo for a living, in fact many work during the day and teach in the evenings and weekends.
If this happened in Korea there would be a lot of angry people and the instructor would have a bad name very quickly. This is just lack a respect to give black belts so easily.
What we should be doing is recommend the good schools or what you consider as the good school for learning. You don't have to tell them the reason. This is the best way, hopefully the bad ones will go away. You might call this mean and wrong but I don't see like that. If they want to make money they can charge outrageous monthly class fees. There is no excuse to give black belt when it's not earned.
Anyways tournaments will show the good schools from the bad ones. Just like my first school we hardly won any trophies or any medals, sure there was some medals and trophies in the school but that was mostly to the real top notch students that just luckly trained harder.
I think this subject on this thread has probably run its course now, we tend to be going round in circles like the oozelum bird!
The subject of McDojos is an interesting one though isn't it? We all have various opinions depending on how we ourselves train and who teaches us but I think we are in danger on this thread of it geting too personal. We can either stop the thread or divert it slightly I think towards things we think shouldn't or should happen in a well run club/school (We tend to have clubs here while you seem to have schools) whether or no not the place is run for profit, we should disregard that part and concentrate on whether the training is any good or not. There's plenty of places that aren't run for the money that aren't very good!
My take is that children shouldn't be given blackbelts under the age of at least 16 preferably older. Blackbelts should take longer than a year to reach if the person is new to martial arts. Self defence techniques should always be realistic. Bunkai should always be taught as kata/forms totally pointless without it. Sparring should be as realistic as possible too.
The subject of McDojos is an interesting one though isn't it? We all have various opinions depending on how we ourselves train and who teaches us but I think we are in danger on this thread of it geting too personal. We can either stop the thread or divert it slightly I think towards things we think shouldn't or should happen in a well run club/school (We tend to have clubs here while you seem to have schools) whether or no not the place is run for profit, we should disregard that part and concentrate on whether the training is any good or not. There's plenty of places that aren't run for the money that aren't very good!
My take is that children shouldn't be given blackbelts under the age of at least 16 preferably older. Blackbelts should take longer than a year to reach if the person is new to martial arts. Self defence techniques should always be realistic. Bunkai should always be taught as kata/forms totally pointless without it. Sparring should be as realistic as possible too.
If you have a problem with a post or another user, there are several options available. You can hit the Report to Moderator button (it's a triangular red & white symbol with an exclamation point) at the top right of the post. The mod team WILL look into the issue. You can send a PM to anyone on the moderation team (especially the senior mods), or even directly to Bob Hubbard, the board owner.I changed my name because no matter what I say their are a couple of people on here not saying who that dogg my threads...I just post a thread to get input not chopped down. So I would rather not have one of my students one day find this site and see their instructors geting ripped on. i think i have good points and dont need someone talking smack on me in a public forum. post your thoughts but dont talk smack on the poster, that is my feeling!
Here is the problem Tez and a few others and I will use me and my family only. I have been training since I could walk my father tought so we learned. When I got married so did my wife start training because of me and now we have three boys the oldest is 14 and then 11 and 10 they have been training since tey could walk and have grown up inside a dokaang. so Zachary has been training 11 years 4-6 days a week and two to four hours a day. This is why they are Junior BB, you and some of the other are going to say they do not deserve this because they are not 16, they have more time in than most adult and they know the material better than most people. I know they are the exception to the rule and that is what need to be taken into consideration in all cases. Those exception in all walks of life, not just martial arts but fashion designers, tennis stars and doctors, road scolars and so forth. There are always those with more time and training then most. This is all I have to say about this anymore, people that know me and my training knows I do not run a Mcdojo's a;ll other can make up there own minds one way or the other.
Of course they deserve their belts! I'm just trying to get the 'conversation' away from the personal attacks and the sniping that's on this thread and hopefully get it off to a different direction!
The thing is as well you have said they are junior BB, they aren't going to be 5th Dans at age 12 for example. I have a mother who is pressuring us to promote her son to full blackbelt at 12, they were posted in earlier this year and initially she told us he was due to receive his BB later this year but we asked for his last certificate of grading, it seems he was a 4th kyu of a style we didn't recognise. His mother said it was TKD but he has a black and yellow suit with a blue/red belt ( not a stripe, it's half and half) and is a kyu grade not kup.
The lad enjoys training, is good at his kicks and punches which are similiar to TKD but his mother wants him to be a black belt, she doesn't see he isn't ready mentally or physicaly and is really not bothered about being a BB! If he'd stayed at his old club no doubt he would be a BB by now, an unhappy one at that.
I'm trying to steer this away from attacks on people because of the way they train and accusations that "this one is a McDojo but of course mine isn't".
OK Yez no problem I agree with what you sad. Personal attack should not be tolerated here on MT and if they feel that way they need to report such things to the Mods and Bob Hubbard. Thanks for your help in steering this back on track.
Well it's something that's worth discussing.
I went to a friends TKD class a while back while I was still quite a low grade in Wado, we did three step sparring and I was paired with a child of about 10 who was a higher grade than myself, it was a humbling experience to be taught by a child! he was very good and I'm glad at the time I didn't have to spar with him lol!
I should have written I think that I don't approve of adult or senior BBs being awarded to children shouldn't I? I do believe children should be rewarded for hard work and effort, my main problem with them being given full BBs is that I think we are putting too much onto them, often they are expected to teach at a young age where they should still be having fun training. I know that's another subject that people differ on...having fun while training!
I worry that these days we are pushing children into adulthood far too soon, not just in martial arts but in everything. I also worry when children are doing too much in martial arts, grappling in head guards concerns me. There was a proposal in adult MMA here that the amateur rules should include head shots but the fighters wear headguards, this was shot down immediately by all the fighters and coaches many of them well known and experienced, grappling with head guards was dangerous and yet kids are being encouraged to do in it the name of safety
.
Perhaps the worse thing about McDojos is that they can be as well meaning as you could wish for but the depth of knowledge simply isn't there to protect children ...and adults.
Firstly, nobody dogged on your thread or chopped you down. Nobody has ripped on you on this thread. You have been asked to clarify your reasons for posting that link with the pejorative description. You clarified that on the last page (and I thank you for doing soI changed my name because no matter what I say their are a couple of people on here not saying who that dogg my threads...I just post a thread to get input not chopped down. So I would rather not have one of my students one day find this site and see their instructors geting ripped on. i think i have good points and dont need someone talking smack on me in a public forum. post your thoughts but dont talk smack on the poster, that is my feeling!
). As for your points, until page eight, you hadn't made any on this thread; you just posted a link and called the place "The definition of a McDojo" and then didn't post for quite some time. Actually, the vast majority of the posts on this thread have been about the second link (can't remember who posted it) to the Youtube video and about McDojos in general. Not much was said about your OP because you really didn't say anything.
I posted a link back the Youn Hwa Ryu thread because of how upset you yourself became when similar assertions were made about your own school and GM. You and others from your association defended your school and GM, something that I would have done if such assertions were made regarding my own dojang and GM. And just as the negative comments made about your school were countered with positive comments from students who currently attend, I will guarantee you that the school which is the subject of your OP has its own devoted students who would give glowing testimonials about their dojang.
I've never been to either your school, nor the one you referrenced in the OP, so I have zero opinion of the training received at either. I make it a point not to name schools on the web unless I have positive commentary. I will say that know of schools that do 'thus and so' but if anyone wants further info, they need to pm me to get it. To date, nobody has.
I said this earlier on this thread, so I'll say it again. I often wonder what sort of comments people make about my own school when they peruse the website or perhaps visit and decide against staying. We are all from disparate parts of the country, so we can all be kind of a society of no-nonsense dojangs, but we're the clique. Soley based on our websites or a bit of negative feedback from a disgruntled student or someone who passed by on a bad day (we all have them), whole threads could be started about any one of nearly 99% of all martial arts schools, our own included as you have experienced.
Heck, my own school has contracts, twelve belts including white and black, and a blackbelt is generally achieved in roughly two years. Point of fact, our two year contract used to be called a blackbelt program when it was pitched to customers. I know because that is how it was pitched to me. To be fair, when I said that I hoped that the belt was not a guarantee, GM Kim said that it was not; just that two years is the average time to BB at our school assuming at least two to three lessons a week and regular practice at home. I often wonder how many serious students turned and walked out the door after having the two year contract pitched as a BB contract without ever asking GM Kim to clarify.
Lastly, I think that this thread has generated quite a bit of healthy discussion. Rather than getting upset over some perceived insult, weigh in on more topics. You're an instructor, so I'd gather that you have a substantial amount of input. And as your own system seems to be heavy on the TKD, you should be more than equiped to lend some educated posts on the TKD forum.
Best wishes,
Daniel
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No feuding here, Tez. I'd consider that a very civil response and hardly feuding. I asked him earlier on the thread to clarify is OP, which he has. I thanked him both in the above thread and via the thank button. I don't know the school and he apparently has first hand knowledge of it, so I'm certainly not going to waste bandwidth debating him regarding the veracity of his assessment.
A bunch of posts were made since I last posted and I got to this one before I got to yours. I generally try to respond in order and make no apologies for doing so.
In any case, I made no personal attacks in my above post, either outright or implied, nor do I have any issue with Bob0812. I meant what I said; the guy is an instructor. I'd like to see more from him. Besides, he's a fellow name changer.
Daniel
Daniel, by the time the thread has got to this point I think frankly it could have been sorted by PM rather than repeated posting, if you haven't got the answers you are looking for by now I don't think it's coming. I'm trying to get away from you 'name changers' lol just having a conversation between yourselves! And feuding can be polite you know!
BrandonLucas
3rd Black Belt
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I would like to throw this out there in reference to the website thing:
Don't judge the school by its .com. Much the same as "Don't judge a book by its cover."
Creating and maintaining a website is not for everyone...including instructors who don't have the computer knowledge to make one. Our dojang used to have a website, I'm ashamed to say...lol....it was an angelfire page, with only the school logo on the page and contact info below that. It looked terrible.
On the subject of the "McDojo", I agree that going off of what was posted in the OP and then again on page 8, I don't see anything that really stands out. Now, it is entirely possible that I'm not looking closely enough, or possibly the wrong page was posted. Or, then again, it could be that there is more info that the OP has that the rest of us don't have that the opinion is being made from. Either way, I second what Daniel said about posting a school's name....please be careful before posting someone's information on the internet for the world to see.
Another thing I've noticed, too, is that the "McDojo" term is thrown around alot. I think that there's a distinct difference between a McDojo and a flat out bad school.
IMO, a McDojo is all about making a profit, no matter what. Extra ranks are added in, students are charged for anything and everything, and the price for instruction is often very over-inflated, as well as the price for the things sold at the school. Also, the student is often only allowed to purchase the items for class from the school...i.e. sparring gear, uniforms, etc.
Now, that doesn't mean that when the student actually gets to the class portion, that they aren't receiving quality instruciton. It is very possible that a school has a very effective instructor who is good with kids and better with adults, knows the cirriculum fully, is able to perform the techniques that the students are expected to perform, and is able to teach the cirriculum effectively...but is still driven by greed.
This is very different from a school that just passes people through the ranks and tells them that they did a good job. Schools like this might not charge anything at all for their instruction.
By the same token, and I think this is where things get a little fuzzy, bad schools often share some or all of the same characteristics as a McDojo...but, to me, in cases like this, the term "bad school" still outweighs the term McDojo.
Just some McFood for thought....
Don't judge the school by its .com. Much the same as "Don't judge a book by its cover."
Creating and maintaining a website is not for everyone...including instructors who don't have the computer knowledge to make one. Our dojang used to have a website, I'm ashamed to say...lol....it was an angelfire page, with only the school logo on the page and contact info below that. It looked terrible.
On the subject of the "McDojo", I agree that going off of what was posted in the OP and then again on page 8, I don't see anything that really stands out. Now, it is entirely possible that I'm not looking closely enough, or possibly the wrong page was posted. Or, then again, it could be that there is more info that the OP has that the rest of us don't have that the opinion is being made from. Either way, I second what Daniel said about posting a school's name....please be careful before posting someone's information on the internet for the world to see.
Another thing I've noticed, too, is that the "McDojo" term is thrown around alot. I think that there's a distinct difference between a McDojo and a flat out bad school.
IMO, a McDojo is all about making a profit, no matter what. Extra ranks are added in, students are charged for anything and everything, and the price for instruction is often very over-inflated, as well as the price for the things sold at the school. Also, the student is often only allowed to purchase the items for class from the school...i.e. sparring gear, uniforms, etc.
Now, that doesn't mean that when the student actually gets to the class portion, that they aren't receiving quality instruciton. It is very possible that a school has a very effective instructor who is good with kids and better with adults, knows the cirriculum fully, is able to perform the techniques that the students are expected to perform, and is able to teach the cirriculum effectively...but is still driven by greed.
This is very different from a school that just passes people through the ranks and tells them that they did a good job. Schools like this might not charge anything at all for their instruction.
By the same token, and I think this is where things get a little fuzzy, bad schools often share some or all of the same characteristics as a McDojo...but, to me, in cases like this, the term "bad school" still outweighs the term McDojo.
Just some McFood for thought....
Windsinger
Green Belt
Okay, I'm not claiming to be any kind of Great Martial Arts Master, but I look at this:
Penacook School Kara-te 2006 commercial
and I just feel sorry for the students there. My grandmother kicks harder than some of their students, and she's been dead for over 20 years!
Then again, I saw this:
PSK "No Touch Knockout"
and realized they're affiliated with George Dillman, someone I've only seen nice comments about from his students. A man who said one of his students couldn't use his "no touch knockout" on a skeptic because "if the guy had his tongue in the wrong position of his mouth, that could nullify it."
:BSmeter:
Penacook School Kara-te 2006 commercial
and I just feel sorry for the students there. My grandmother kicks harder than some of their students, and she's been dead for over 20 years!
Then again, I saw this:
PSK "No Touch Knockout"
and realized they're affiliated with George Dillman, someone I've only seen nice comments about from his students. A man who said one of his students couldn't use his "no touch knockout" on a skeptic because "if the guy had his tongue in the wrong position of his mouth, that could nullify it."
:BSmeter:
I have a very hard time taking Dilman's association seriously. Very sad to see a man of his level promoting chi balls that only work on your uke but not on an assailant. And to subject your students to a National Geographic special, wherein your technique is shown to be fake, and to give that awful tongue in the wrong spot and little toe lifted up blocking the chi excuse makes me wonder if really believes that that stuff is real. Perhaps he's fooled himself.
Either way, he's not an unskilled man and should be using his rank and station to promote authentic martial arts instead of being an MA snake oil salesman.
Daniel
Either way, he's not an unskilled man and should be using his rank and station to promote authentic martial arts instead of being an MA snake oil salesman.
Daniel
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